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Thread: Primary Response
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27th December 2012, 07:46 PM #136
Yes, this argument about tyrannical government is most perplexing.
Perhaps they think that thaey are still under the thumb of the Brits??
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28th December 2012, 02:44 PM #137
Well, this has certainly been a lively discussion
I guess I'm in a minority, having hunted most of my life, spent time in the US.... and even served in the military.
Personally, I found the people in the states to be very friendly, and quite patriotic towards their country. (LA isn't particularly nice, but the midwest was lovely)
Shooting sports are very big over there - something that doesn't seem to attract much media coverage. Despite the fact that many of the disciplines are in fact Olympic sports as well...
Seems like the politicians are milking the publicity now... e.g. the mayor of LA. Firearms laws are passed at the state level only, to ensure uniformity across the state (cities/counties cannot enact gun laws, but some do have ammo restrictions). CA has probably the most restrictive laws of any state, but gang crime with guns is among the worst in the country. Of course, if you pointed to demographics being the major factor, you'd be correct. But the whole media debate has been pretty myopic so far - they aren't really including any factors that won't support their own political agenda.
I know that there are many people who think all firearms should be banned, and I guess we'll just agree to disagree on that point.
But if you can figure out a way to ban crime, you'll get my vote for sure
A friend sent me this, which is a video blog of a teacher who is also a gun enthusiast in the US. He presents an interesting perspective, that I found quite interesting.
Hopefully others will too
Media vs "Gun Culture" - YouTube
Edit... david, you might be interested in these stats as well Articles: Murder by Numbers
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28th December 2012, 08:06 PM #138
thanks for that for the record, i am not against guns but i am in favour of gun control and in responsible gun ownership .... although i don't own a gun, i know several people (including my sister) who own (legal) guns and fit into that categoryat the same time, nothing i have read nor information i have analysed convinces me that the US doesn't have a gun problem ... the fact that other countries also have one doesn't mitigate that for me ... i don't think it is the only problem they have, as a society, and i don't think that gun control alone will solve them, however it frustrates me to see that they will make no effort to solve that part of it ... i don't believe that President Obama will have any success at all .... his opponents (not only on guns) seem to believe that any compromise at all is a weaknessregards david
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28th December 2012, 10:35 PM #139
It seems that in Utah some teachers are getting ready to carry concealed weapons:
US teachers take up arms after mass shootings - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)Cheers,
Jim
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29th December 2012, 11:10 AM #140
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for responsible gun ownership, even the vetting of licence holders. But some of the regulations imposed here seem to be a bit bizarre, to say the least.
I think a big part of the issue is that many of those espousing opinions do so from a basis of ignorance. Understandable, since sport shooting is admittedly not for everyone, and many don't wish to take it up as a sport. The media doesn't help, since providing the general public with unbiased information doesn't sell nearly as well as emotive sensationalist articles, and since that's the primary source of information for many people, misconceptions are the end result.
I think life experience also plays a big part in shaping those perceptions. Having used firearms for much of my life, my perceptions will be different to someone who's primary information is obtained from a 3rd party (media).
Just as, given some of the things I saw when I was a paramedic, I'd be more inclined to support a cc rating limitation for vehicles, and/or the fitting of speed governors than people that haven't seen firsthand what speed and alcohol-fuelled stupidity can do. Some may argue that vehicles aren't designed to kill. Technically correct, but they do, and in great numbers.
Even in that case though, is it the vehicle at fault, or the operator? While imposing restrictions on the vehicle MAY reduce road fatalities (debatable), is that the most prudent method, or is concentrating on the operator the best way to achieve the desired result?
BTW, I was surprised to see that wikipedia had a page on gun politics in Australia, with many citations to research articles Gun politics in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Some interesting reading there.
Cheers,
Gordon
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29th December 2012, 11:58 AM #141
Gordon
While I don't neccessarily agree with all your comments, may I compliment you on your calm and considered approach under sustained fire (withering fire at times).
As always when judging comment we have to assess whether there are hidden agendas. The media are in many ways the worst culprits and we all know how sensationalism sells newspapers and magazines. In a number of instances their investigation and research is downright sloppy at best and a dereliction of duty at worst.
One apsect that incenses me is the presumptions made by people who have no direct knowledge of what they are talking about. If, for example, you have never fired a gun whether in peacetime or war, you are poorly qualified to make judgements and, as you have pointed out, emotion takes over from reason and the dreaded knee-jerk reaction swings into place.
Policticians are the next group who have their own agendas. Don't get me going there! And lastly we all have our own agendas. If I competed regularly in pistol club competitions I would, I think, be dismayed at calls to ban guns in their entirity.
In the case of the schools massacres we are rightly appalled at the slaughter of innocent children and we naturaly ask ourselves if there are too many guns around. In the US they seem to be dished out without sufficient checks (I know it varys from state to state so there are fifty different versions to start with. Just head over the border if things are too difficult). I think there are too many guns in circulation in the US and many many too many of the totally unjustifiable type.
Here in Australia I think we have a balance that for the majority of the time, with the exception of the Port Arthur incident, has worked well. I hope I never have to eat my words on that statement. In fact Port Arthur did result in a tightening of the gun laws; Not perfect but better.
Whilst I see a very comparable situation with numbers of road deaths and gun related homicides in the US (that is not the same case in Oz), I am reluctant to draw direct comparisons. The fundamental reason for guns and cars are diametrically opposed. Fatalaties on the one hand are primarily accidental while on the other are primarily intentional.
Yes, it is the operator of the gun that is at fault, but that is no consolation to the victim or the families and friends.
One problem in the US (actually I think they have more than one problem but...) is that the horse has bolted and in this case I really don't know how you get it back. Most of those who let the horse out are still holding the gate open and refusing to close it.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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29th December 2012, 12:05 PM #142
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29th December 2012, 12:50 PM #143
What shocks me in that video is his statement that you can not buy an automatic rifle in the US at the moment, not because they are banned but because THE ARE SOLD OUT. That bears out his statment about how many people wanted one and were tossing up whether to buy one or not.
With all the statistics flying about it pays to remember it's "lies, damn lies and statistics"
This might interest some of us
From Our Woodworking Colleagues | Woodworker's Journal - Blog
Remembering the original post and that we are a woodworking forum.
RegardsHugh
Enough is enough, more than enough is too much.
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29th December 2012, 01:28 PM #144Bushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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29th December 2012, 06:50 PM #145
Can someone tell me why these weapons are allowed to be owned by civilians
AK-47
AR-15
Gotta love this.
H&K 91
UZI
To grow old is inevitable.... To grow up is optional
Confidence, the feeling you have before you fully understand the situation.
What could possibly go wrong.
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29th December 2012, 07:04 PM #146
Unbelievable.
It's just for kicks, and that's not a valid reason for then having them available to people who want to kill for kicks.
The nine year old child couldn't properly control the gun either (mainly because he doesn't have enough body mass), and that's just bloody stupid on his father's part.
I just don't get it.
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29th December 2012, 07:53 PM #147
I don't get it either FF.
This is not sport, this is not defending your home. This is macho bullshyte at its worstTo grow old is inevitable.... To grow up is optional
Confidence, the feeling you have before you fully understand the situation.
What could possibly go wrong.
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29th December 2012, 08:00 PM #148
Well Grumpy. Those videos just about sum it up.
It knocks the theory on the head that the automatics are derated for civilian use, it brings up a petition to vote against a $200 tax presumeaably on guns, it spreads fear that Obama is going to to take away their guns, it shows a nine year old boy firing a gun he can hardly hold up and probably before he can read and write properly (that's my supposition so you should probably discount it) and it shows that there is a firearms chanel.
Like Brett said: Unbelievable!
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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29th December 2012, 08:27 PM #149
I didn't go looking for these videos in particular Paul, I just typed in assault weapons in the youtube search window and chose a few at random. I had no idea that I'd get an idiot letting a nine year old fire a weapon he couldn't control. This is the mentality we can't understand devnull.
To grow old is inevitable.... To grow up is optional
Confidence, the feeling you have before you fully understand the situation.
What could possibly go wrong.
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29th December 2012, 08:28 PM #150
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