Black Japan and white shellac compatible?

[Dengue]

F & W Black Japan

A tough, semi transparent, oil based, black gloss stain. Black Japan can be applied directly (undiluted) or diluted with Fungishield to achieve a range of varying shades from black to light oak. Ideal for restoring the black stained border surrounds of floors in older houses or darkening new timber to match existing timber tones.

Black Japan is a semi transparent stain so to achieve a strong shade of black we recommend you stain the surface directly with one coat of undiluted Feast Watson Prooftint Black and then stain with Black Japan. Black Japan should always be sealed (isolated) with Feast Watson French Polish which acts as a barrier preventing Black Japan from bleeding into subsequent top coats.

The above information is taken from the F & W web site. Does anyone have any experience with this and sealing it with Ubeaut White Shellac?

Also, is it possible to add a drop of a red dye to Black Japan to make it a deeper black colour?

[mic-d]

The above information is taken from the F & W web site. Does anyone have any experience with this and sealing it with Ubeaut White Shellac?

Also, is it possible to add a drop of a red dye to Black Japan to make it a deeper black colour?

So it says right there that you seal with French polish, so Ubeauts white shellac will be fine. If you want it a deeper black, I'd follow their other advice and use prooftint black under it.

[Dengue]

Good news!! Many thanks mic-d, much appreciated. I have never used shellac before

[RedShirtGuy]

Perfect timing Dengue. I have some pine (sylvestris) pieces prepared for tomorrow when I'm going to test some expired White Shellac (diluted) as a sealer and wiping on a different number of coats of FW Black Japan to see how it takes.

- 3 pieces without sealing and 1-3 coats of BJ.
- 3 pieces with sealing and 1-3 coats of BJ.

I'm planning to do one face, one edge and one end on each piece to see how it works all over. I'll also be putting a dent in the face of each piece and filling it with a putty (that I can't remember the name of at the moment) to see what the sealer and BJ do there too. So with 12 hours between coats I should have the tests done by Saturday night and was planning to post some pics in a new thread Sunday sometime (probably evening).

Interestingly, the description, preparation and application directions on the website are reasonably different from what's on the tin I picked up from Blahnnings today. Not sure what's going on there.

[Dengue]

Thanks mic-d, this give me confidence to get some white shellac and have a go. I had thought the metho in the shellac would damage the Black Japan.

Will get some ordinary black as a primary stain before adding the Black Japan


Here is some interesting info from wiki - this would explain why it bleeds, it is bitumous. FW advise me that actual Black Japan product as described below is no longer available.

Now for the confusing bit. FW do make the Prooftint in a Black Japan colour. It a semi transparent stain which you can stain the timber with first and then apply the Tung Oil over the top. The Prooftint washes up in Metho and the Tung Oil washed up in Turps

Japan black (also called simply japan) is a lacquer or varnish suitable for many substrates but known especially for its use on iron and steel. It is named after Japan. Its high bitumen content provides a protective finish that is durable and dries quickly. This allowed japan black to be used extensively in the production of automobiles in the early 20th century in the United States. It can also be called japan lacquer and Brunswick black. Used as a verb, japan means "to finish in japan black." Thus japanning and japanned are terms describing the process and its products.Ingredients

Japan black consisted mostly of an asphaltic base dissolved in naphtha or turpentine, sometimes with other varnish ingredients, such as linseed oil. It is applied directly to metal parts, and then baked at about 200°C (400°F) for up to an hour.^[1]

I hope I haven't confused the issue, but it is important to know the difference between Black Japan and the product made by FW which is a semi transparent stain with a colour called Black Japan.

I wonder why this stain bleeds and needs sealing.

[mic-d]

OK, hold everything!

A bit of a preamble... About 2 years ago I found out that FW was no longer making the bituminous Japan Black. They provided me with the Prooftint recipe to make a stain with the appearance of bituminous Japan Black, I posted it somewhere on the forum and you can search it, but it seems moot now that FW are selling the ready made Prooftint Japan Black themselves.

Since then I have checked back on their website and bituminous Black Japan still appears there. I had assumed it had gone back into production, but a quick call to them today confirms it is still N/A. (I asked them to think about updating their website since it is causing confusion)

So Dengy, the information you posted from the FW website is old and applies to the bituminous Black Japan. It was soluble in turps so was sealed with shellac, (since alcohol is a compatible solvent-won't dissolve the dye)prior to subsequent oil based finish (which would have pulled the dye).


So now if you use the Prooftint Japan Black, you will NOT seal it with shellac because those dyes are soluble in alcohol and you will pull the stain. (doesn't mean you can't use shellac over it, but it will pull some colour for a while so you need to test it)
What I have done in the past is to apply the stain in dilute shellac, (1/4lb cut), which helps to fix it. Of course if you're using oil-based finish, that's easy, just put it on.

Hope this clarifies things.

Thanks mic-d, this give me confidence to get some white shellac and have a go. I had thought the metho in the shellac would damage the Black Japan.

Will get some ordinary black as a primary stain before adding the Black Japan


Here is some interesting info from wiki - this would explain why it bleeds, it is bitumous. FW advise me that actual Black Japan product as described below is no longer available.

Now for the confusing bit. FW do make the Prooftint in a Black Japan colour. It a semi transparent stain which you can stain the timber with first and then apply the Tung Oil over the top. The Prooftint washes up in Metho and the Tung Oil washed up in Turps






I hope I haven't confused the issue, but it is important to know the difference between Black Japan and the product made by FW which is a semi transparent stain with a colour called Black Japan.

I wonder why this stain bleeds and needs sealing.

[Dengue]

Thanks mic-d, I am holding everything, but I only have two hands

This is good news, I think. Can you please confirm that after applying Prooftint Black Japan coloured stain, I don't need to coat it with white shellac if I apply, say, Wattyl Scandanavian Teak Oil? This would be great, because I like to use that and then finish with some EEE Ultrashine cutting compound, followed by a couple of coats of Ubeaut Traditional Wax

Just confirm soon and I can then let go everything before the cramps set in

[mic-d]

Yes you can apply the Scandinavian oil directly over the prooftint.

[Dengue]

Riiiiight !! Many thanks mic-d, this is really good news. Everything has been released