flag to half mast (a septic firefighters vent)

[Kris.Parker1]

Firstly let me say that no matter the occasion, half masting of the national flag should be standardised. Half mast should be like most goverment establishments in Australia and only be half masted for half a day. This gives respect to the deceased as well as still showing the strength of the country. If there were only one procedure for all, then there would be no concern over what is more important. To all those out there reading this forum, maybe we shouldn't concentrate on the act and how many people were lost or who's life is more valuable. Maybe we should concentrate more on the life of that or those persons who died. I cannot understand how people can measure a person by there position. Whether it's one or one hundred or one thousand people, if half masting were made standard then all people would understand that it is half masted because something has happened which we should all be made aware. Regardless if we don't know the person or persons who died, the actual act of relfection upon seeing a half masted flag should be enough.

My two cents any.

P.S. Biting Midge, Arnie can't become el-presidentay because he was not born in the USA.

Beejay, I have to agree with your points about not implementing a half mast scale.

[Kris.Parker1]

The problem is that politicians are making the decisions - and they make those decisions along the line of least resistance (i.e. what will make them look good in the the latest opinion poll).

I beleive that in Australia the only person who can order the half masting of the ANF is the Governor General. When I last checked this was not a political position.

Not meaning to sound picky Slavo and not to have a go at you, but I thought I'd just let you know my thoughts.

If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Cheers

Kris

[Sturdee]

If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Kris, you may be right about the GG being the only one that can order the flag to be flown at half mast, but remember the GG, under the constitution, must act on the advice (read instructions) of the Executive Council.

This wonderfull institution consist of the GG and any two ministers. Hence it is the pollies who actually order it.

If half masting were made standard then all people would understand that it is half masted because something has happened which we should all be made aware. Regardless if we don't know the person or persons who died, the actual act of reflection upon seeing a half masted flag should be enough.

That's what happens at the golf club I worked. When a member died the club flag would be lowered to half mast untill the day of the funeral. On the day of the funeral the club flag would be raised and the Australian flag would be lowered for the funeral.

This was done not only as a mark of respect but also to advise other members that the club was in mourning.


Peter.

[ryanarcher]

I dont believe that its appropriate to compare situations like these .

The death of a world or church leader or the impact of a major disaster affects us all in one way or another and the emotions remain with individuals long after the flags are raised.

9/11 is an event and a date that will never be forgotten by anyone alive at that time. Its an event that history will show as the start of the fight against world terrorism, hopefully a successful fight, and if our children can live in a world free from such acts of violence in ten or twenty years time then maybe, just maybe, 9/11 will be seen as having some sort of meaning in the grand scheme of things rather than just a waste of so many innocent lives.

I dont think the length of time a flag is lowered is at all relevant and whether or not its a political manoeuver doesnt matter to me. I for one am always saddened by tragedy and the death of great people and loss of innocent lives and I do mourne them all but in my own way and own time. Some I never forget others I probably do but Im sure were all a bit like that.

The fact is that the Pope was a much loved and highly respected church leader who spent his life trying to unite a very troubled world. He was progressive and didnt walk away from confrontation. He spoke his mind and condemned all acts of violence by all countries and their leaders and he cared deeply for everyone regardless of their religion or beliefs. He was in my book a great man. I dont think too many people will be concerned about how long flags are lowered for and Indeed I dont think think they should. That to me is lack of respect in itself and to begin to compare such events and there 'flag lowering worth' is in my mind somewhat puerile.
The last thing we want is a rating scale for world disasters and deaths.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

BJ,
I wholeheartedly disagree with you. by dictating the amount of time the flag is lowered, the president is creating a rating scale for the amount of respect aforded to peoples deaths. And a few months ago GW told me that one ronald reagan = 4 times all of the 9/11 victims.

BJ, it's real easy for you to call me childish while you sit an ocean away and pretend to be sympathetic towards the september 11 atacks. just know this:

if 343 of your brothers and sisters died on that day, you would feel differently.

[ryanarcher]

9/11 is an event and a date that will never be forgotten by anyone alive at that time. Its an event that history will show as the start of the fight against world terrorism, hopefully a successful fight, and if our children can live in a world free from such acts of violence in ten or twenty years time then maybe, just maybe, 9/11 will be seen as having some sort of meaning in the grand scheme of things rather than just a waste of so many innocent lives.

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

BJ,
ask yourself honestly how many of our boys and resources are fighting terrorism, and how many are killing and bieng killed so that we can have lower oil prices.

[bitingmidge]

BJ,
ask yourself honestly how many of our boys and resources are fighting terrorism, and how many are killing and bieng killed so that we can have lower oil prices.

Fresh out of Greenies Ryan, but which part of Queensland did you day you were from???

P

[beejay1]

To reply to your points Ryan:
1) My understanding is that in your country, flag lowering is only officially to mark the death of an important government official. All other instances are decided upon at the time and duration is governed by strength of national feeling and approved by congress. Please correct me if thats wrong.

2) I said that you were puerile by saying that the events of 9/11 should have a greater rating of flag lowering worth than certain other events and that such a statement in itself showed lack of repect. I still stand by that. The lowering of a flag is a mark of respect, and personal grief and sorrow continues long after a flag has been raised .

3) As to pretending about my feelings on that day. How dare you Ryan! Along with millions of others throughout the world I was shocked to tears. People do not need to be close to such an event to feel the impact of such an horrific event and I was heartbroken at the loss of over 3000 innocent lives through such an act of mindless terrorism.

4) A war over Oil? As with all wars Ryan there are always reasons and hidden agendas. In this intance I do not believe that oil price is what its about at all. George Bush was re-elected by your nation because it believes in what he is doing. I also feel that without your country's and your President's committment to ridding the world of such activities we would have already seen other similar attrocities.
That said, yes, politics invariably play a part and usually for reasons that we common folks dont always understand. Out of everything bad in the world something good usually appears and more often than not the good is secured by politcal management which is seldom evident until after the event. Im not referring to oil prices here by the way. Look to history and you will find many examples.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[ozwinner]

3)Along with millions of others throughout the world I was shocked to tears. People do not need to be close to such an event to feel the impact of such an horrific event and I was heartbroken at the loss of over 3000 innocent lives through such an act of mindless terrorism.

Same.
You dont have to be there at the actual event to feel numbed to the core.
For many many months after, every time a plane flew over I relived the event I saw on the news.


Al

[echnidna]

ditto Al And Beejay

[DanP]

Beejay,

I'm gunna have to go with Ryan on this one. Your point one (1) "governed by the strength of national feeling" How much national feeling do you want? I doubt there has ever been an incident in the history of the US and maybe the world that has generated more national feeling.

I suppose those of you who aren't in emergency services don't really understand the comradeship in these departments. If one police member dies, it's like someone has killed your brother (I had a mate of mine die on the job). To have 343 of your family die in one hit is something that I can't even imagine. I wept on the morning when I got up for work and saw the devastation on the news. But I wept more in empathy for those emergency services workers still alive who had lost their family.

I don't think he shows a lack of respect to the pope at all. He was simply stating that if had been some other head of a major religion he doubted that the flag would be half masted.

I think the length of time that a flag is half masted is relevant. It has been made relevant by the pollies who decide how long it is half masted for. AND, I think to half mast a flag for a month for Ronnie Reagan is a joke, when the people who gave their lives trying to save people like you and me, true heroes, are given the honour of having it there for one quarter of that time. If I was in Ryan's position I would be bleeding too.

Dan

[beejay1]

Dan, dont disagree with you at all. There couldnt have been any stronger feeling nationally or internationally and maybe if such a tragedy had ever been considered by congress in 1942, an appropriate duration would have been set.

You are also correct in assuming that I can only imagine the comradeship that exists in services like the police and fire service as well as the armed forces and Its such loyalty and bonding that probably along with hard training makes those forces excel at what they do. I do however know how it feels to lose a loved one, furthermore, I made no reference at all to any rescue services on that fatefull day.

The lack of respect was in relation to the comparison of deaths and disasters. For one to complain about and compare flag lowering duration shows lack of respect for any loss of life.

Finally,I would point out Dan that lowering the flags after 9/11 was to show respect for All who perished not just the firemen.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[DanP]

Finally,I would point out Dan that lowering the flags after 9/11 was to show respect for All who perished not just the firemen.

BJ, As to the above quote, you are of course, correct.

My opinion on the flag lowering is that a flag should be lowered for a set period, be it 24 or 48 hours or one week. The fact that it is being politicised by pollies setting a length of time that it will be lowered creates a comparison to other times it has occurred, especially if you have an emotional involvement, such as Ryan has. Which, I think, is the entire point of his original post.

Dan

[Wood Borer]

Ken,

Good question. I looked carefully for morse coded messages in the dovetails but they seemed to have the tails and pins the same width. You would have thought the cameramen would have zoomed in on the dovetails a bit more too.

Hopefully they were handcut but more importantly what was the timber?

Again the brains of $%^& press speak so authoritively even when they are wrong. I didn't watch too much of it but SWMBO was watching it so I caught a couple of glimpses of the funeral whilst eating my dinner.

One reporter said the coffin was made from cypress, another said cedar and another said pine. These pea brained commentators guess and make out their guesses are factual.

After hearing that I am questioning whether the Pope really died at all, perhaps they got that confused a little bit too.

So what was the coffin made from.

[Kris.Parker1]

Guys, I hope I don't get shot down in flames. But this topic seems to be destabilising quite quickly. Maybe we should call it quits here and go to the polls... Click here to be magically whisked away by the cyber train...

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=16350

[ryanarcher]

BJ,
we'll just diagree on this one, and that's cool. no hard feelings. and to quote the wise toggy "on to more ww things". anyway thanks for letting me get that off my chest guys.
-Ryan