Asking a Client for money

[old pete]

Hi Gary H,

I'm struggling to be sympathetic and I' m hoping you get a valuable lesson from this ie provide a job specification and a written fixed quotation to go with it then both parties know their obligations and expectations.

I don't know about the $35 per hour because some folk are much more productive than others. I have a charge out rate of $60 per hour for machining but I operate compliant ie I pay GST and I pay tax and I have insurance. I can do a lot of machining in an hour also.

Occasionally I perform a do and charge job for something I don't have experience of such as a set of round porthole frames and round cornered door jambs I cold bent laminated a few years ago. There I said pay me wages for making the forms and manufacturing three of each and I'll quote for the rest. In the event i got to do the lot on wages at owners choice and we were both happy with the outcome. It's horses for courses.



Old Pete

[Gary_H]

Gary, since it is early in your career, the approaches you take in your vocation at this stage will make a profound difference to the success of your career.

I have been an adviser to business clients for over 20 years and I have seen less skilled people be more successful in business than those with far higher skills. This applies whether they are carpenters, doctors or whatever.

Customer relationships is the cornerstone of any business transaction which is in turn based upon effective communication. In other words in managing a job, you have to manage the actual work as well as managing the client. Effective client management not only leads to a higher customer satisfaction rate, it also enables you to earn more money through the confidence and reputation that you build up.

I would also urge you to look at the most successful trades people that you are aware of and see what they have in common (apart from good quality work). I would suggest that some of the things are:

1. Clients are fully aware of costs up front and have every aspect of the job explained to them. In this way they can see what they are getting in detail and will actually appreciate knowing what is involved.

2. Any variations are communicated immediately, preferably confirmed in writing, and not delayed until the end of the job. There is never a pleasant way to disappoint a client, however, this approach is better for everyone.

3. If you really can't meet a deadline or meeting etc, ALWAYS call and inform the client and negotiate an alternative. This is one of the most important factors because it is a test of how good your word is.

Obviously there is more but the above is what other people see and it is other people who determine how good your reputation will be.

TP1

That is really good advice, and something which when I think about it makes complete common sense.

My boss, who is an excellent tradesman has really good communication, puts into practice all of what you said in the above. When he's giving quotes he always tells the client what's included, and includes them all the way along, which I have noticed, really eases the client, and makes the job a much more pleasant experience. All his work is by word of mouth.

I understand that's what I need to do, and do do this when I'm quoting other work. But for stuff which I have limited experience in, it can be quite difficult to estimate the amount of time it will take me. I know experience will sort this.

Cheers for the input.

Gary

[Gary_H]

Hi Gary H,

I'm struggling to be sympathetic and I' m hoping you get a valuable lesson from this ie provide a job specification and a written fixed quotation to go with it then both parties know their obligations and expectations.

I don't know about the $35 per hour because some folk are much more productive than others. I have a charge out rate of $60 per hour for machining but I operate compliant ie I pay GST and I pay tax and I have insurance. I can do a lot of machining in an hour also.

Occasionally I perform a do and charge job for something I don't have experience of such as a set of round porthole frames and round cornered door jambs I cold bent laminated a few years ago. There I said pay me wages for making the forms and manufacturing three of each and I'll quote for the rest. In the event i got to do the lot on wages at owners choice and we were both happy with the outcome. It's horses for courses.



Old Pete

Thanks mate, will take the advice onboard

[skot]

I find a lot of times that a client has an unreasonable idea of the amount of work it takes to do a "simple" job, (If it was so simple, why don't they do it themselves).

You have to charge for your knowledge of how to do the job. Reminds me of a client of mine....all my clients are Land Surveyors...

"A perspective client of his came into his office and asked for a quote to survey the Lot corners of his property. The surveyor advises him that it would be $800.00.. to which the man said "WHAT, $800 just for 4 wooden pegs in the ground"

My client called out to his chainman to get 4 pegs from the truck and proceeded to give the man the 4 pegs and told him $10 for the pegs. TO which to man replies "But I don't know where the pegs go in"

"THATS WHAT THE $800 IS FOR" my client responds.

He got the job

[justinmcf]

hi gary.
as a chippy myself, i feel your pain mate.
but with lots of experience this process will become second nature to you.

i always maintain that doing the carpentry is the easy part, the hard part of business is managing your employees, keeping the clients happy and keeping the work coming in steady.

there is no real advice that you need. just keep doing what you are doing.
i had clients in northern ireland, where i served my apprenticeship, back in the nineties look at me the same way.
they think you are ripping them off.

the bizarre thing is, it was always rich people who were rude to me. i never had any complaints from the working man.

when i was an apprentice i always worked on hourly rate, even when i was doing my cashies.
the reason being that i did not have the experience or confidence to put forward a quote.
personally i think people got this work done for cheap.

i think that lady got the work done cheap also, so good onya.
you will know the next time when doing a similar job what to quote and how much profit to add on too. by the way, you should be adding on 20 percent for materials.

keep up the good work mate,
regards, justin.

[opelblues]

Years ago when I was working for myself, I had 3 different hourly rate charges

$35.00 standard
$55.00 if you watch
$75.00 if you help

This was painted on the trailer for all to see, I got asked many a time if I was joking, NO. At the end of a job if the client helped, I found that 90% of the time I had to fix what they had done or started. It also made sure that they didn’t get under my feet.

Make sure you explain what you are doing before you start. What you expect on site, and a good quote + 25% for unseen costs.

And don’t get caught tiring to defend you charges, it only wastes time.

[Clinton1]

Gary,

Please re-read what TP1 posted.
Reflect on it when you have a 'coolhead moment' and compare that post to what you did with your client.

TP1 should be charging about $250/30 minutes for what he posted.

Also, Justin's post is worth reflecting upon.

I believe that communication will be what makes or busts you in your career... there are plenty of good tradeies out there that work for wages, being your own boss requires an added skill set. That skill set can only be learned through experience and reflection...

In your specific case.... I'd like to suggest that you call the client, ask to meet, explain the materials bill, explain that you charge $35 per hour for labour, explain that you took 11 hours, and ask your client to get back to you with their thoughts on what she expected the labour hours to be... and then change the subject, ask that she talks to you after she has thought about it, and leave.
See what happens. Add it to the 'learn from it' basket. I believe that this should serve you well.

good luck, pm me whenever, if you like

[ian]

At the hourly rates mentioned ,how much do I charge for a Special Jewelery box I have spent 35 hours on and still have a few to go ??????.
regards John.

John
I haven't seen the box you're building

However, i have seen the boxes sold through the Bungendore Wood Works Gallery
simple A4 document boxes (no dovetails or finger joints) retail for upto about $300 depending on timber species.
a simple A5 box with an embrodiered panel on the inside of the lid might cost $1500
elaborate (extensive inlay) document boxes or jewellery boxes (inlay and/or many compartments) retail for more than $5,000
(of course these prices includes the gallery's commission)

but what would you charge for a copy of this cabinet, originally by John Commachio?
the timber's raindrop blackwood

[weisyboy]

as i explain to all my clients when i give them a quote.

it always works out more expencive on a quote. cos i have to allow for everything that could possibly go wrong to go wrong.

when i quote i work out like this.

materials + (labor x 1.5) + expences x 20%

if i do this i might come out ontop.

make sure you get a deposit upfront. deposit must cover materials and some labour.


after you have been working for a wile you will be able to look at a job and guess pretty close to the actual amount without doing any calculations.

this being said. jsut because you have given a quote and got a deposit dosent mean you will be paid.

i am currently owed 15 000 from diferent clients in unpaid accounts.

[nine fingers]

Ian, You can see the box in the marquetry forum, delivered it yesterday , client extremely happy with it. Got paid a nice round four figure sum.
cheers John.

[ian]

John
I've seen it.
A very well executed box. I particularly like the 3D effect you've achieved

I wont ask you how much you were paid, but to answer the question I posed in an earlier post, the cabinet by John Commachio was, last time I looked, priced at $25,000