if you dont believe in global warming sign this

[Sebastiaan56]

Sure ETS will cause major issues, we all know that. But what you going to do about it. If you have any sense you know, right or wrong its not going to go away. So what you gonna do. Sit in the corner and moan. Or see how you can suceed with that in place. That is the challenge of this age. Can you suceed, or are you going to continue to whine and fail.

I reckon there are a hundred thousand business opportunities waiting right now. A few need just a bit of support (Nathan Reece's new feed in tariff rules for example) but there are a lot that will be like dogs balls in hindsight. Mini solar collection using salt water to retain the heat must be an opportunity, particularly in our current heat wave.

[.RC.]

Everybody is an idiot.

No most people are not idiots, they just lack in independent thought and believe what they are told, the term sheeple is based on quite a bit of truth...

There are plenty of examples to support my case..

Terrorists
Pedophiles


We have lost huge amounts of freedom over the hysteria of those two groups alone..Bring in the environmental

Our extremely high standard of living has given people closed minds and it seems to have infiltrated every generation alive. People these days have no grasp of reality and common sense..Everything is always someone else's fault.. A classic example is the current hot weather and the huge amount of electricity that was consumed by air con units...People say they are concerned by CO2 emissions but they still turned on the air cons...Another example is the last election, people voted against workchoices yet they go and buy goods from china built by exploited workers on $1 a day wages.

They say they want strict environmental controls yet again buy goods from china where the toxic chemicals used are pumped straight into the water..

They say they don't want nuclear power yet a coal fired power station spews out more radioactive material then a modern nuclear one ever will..

The hypocrisy and stupidity of sheeple is amazing all bought about by closed minds and hysteria..

[kiwigeo]

No most people are not idiots, they just lack in independent thought and believe what they are told, the term sheeple is based on quite a bit of truth...

..

I think with something like climate change the problem is more laypeople trying to understand what is actually a very complex subject..... Im a Geologist with a university degree and even I dont fully understand the complexities of the worlds climate systems. Add to that a general inability on the part of most scientists to explain science in clear and understandable language and a general distrust of scientists amongst many of people and its not surprising that people don't accept global warming.

My current feelings on climate change and global warming.....the changes we are seeing are a combinatuon of natural climate fluctuation but with perhaps some degree of human influence superimposed on same. I have the ICCP reports sitting on my desk at home but have yet to find the time to sit down and read them. When I have I will re-think my take on the whole issue.

Regardless of my beliefs on climate change and global warming one thing we do need to start doing is to change our wasteful western lifestyle.

[.RC.]

Regardless of my beliefs on climate change and global warming one thing we do need to start doing is to change our wasteful western lifestyle.

I agree with that, but the Extra Tax Scheme will not do that... Consumerism is an addiction and we are totally addicted..

Years ago the consumer lived in amodest three bedroom home...Today they live in a McMansion with full ensuite, a holiday every year and they eat out at least once a week..

[damian]

I don't quite understand your last comment....Hubbert Peak Oil Theory ( prefer to call it fact) has nothing to do with human driven climate change.

You misread my comment. I was referring to the _correlation_ between the song dates and the oil production/discovery curves. They follow one another better than most of the data quoted to support human driven climate change. I wasn't suggesting the graph was one supporting climate change, and to be clear it was posted as a joke to follow up the cute little snowmen

To put it another way, if your able to get hold of the raw data, complete and unadulterated, and graph it up without any "massaging" or cherry picking the correlations that the CLE's try to use are poor at best and more often than not absent.

Of course the anti climate change lobby are guilty of the same thing, they often justify it as fighting fire with fire.

Having a geology degree isn't even a beginning to understanding atmospheric physics. Not knocking your degree, I've got quite a few friends who are geologists, but I've made a decent study of climate physics over the last 15 years or so, and meteorology (I'm a bit of an Eric Oldthwait I'm afraid, shovels and precipitation), and you need to do a lot of reading and listening even from a strong physics background. Then if your going to advance to "climateology" you need to grasp oceanography, palentology and history pretty darn well.

With regards the "crankiness" factor in this, as has been pointed out this is a democracy and the ETS hasn't passed yet, thus IMO we have every right to kick and scream to put it off or better yet put it down.

I suppose those of you welcoming the ets with open arms and professing the opportunities it presents also thought the gst was a good idea, afterall the government told us how great it was going to be. While we're all used to that increased level of financial pain now I am sure you have all conveniently forgotten how many small businesses it shut down. I knew quite a few people who had been happily trading for decades who shut shop when that gem was unleashed on us. Good luck making money out of the ets, I rather suspect the only people to profit will be the parasites in the finance industry and big organisations who have contributed to political party coffers, and to pollies in "other" ways....

[rrobor]

Climate change, real or imaginay, ia a foct of life. You can make all sorts of noises. You can do what the yokels are doing in the yokel party and destroy a viable opposition. It will make no difference.
You may post to page 32 as happened in the renovative forum with your complaints and ideas, you are wasting your time. This subject has fixed ideas on both sides, they dont change.
The Rudd government got in and wiped the Howard government with the platform they are doing now. Like it or not, that is the majority view. That view remains, as such moaning that the majority got it wrong is a waste of time, and pointless.

[jimbur]

Climate change, real or imaginay, ia a foct of life. You can make all sorts of noises. You can do what the yokels are doing in the yokel party and destroy a viable opposition. It will make no difference.

Destroying a viable opposition is the most dangerous action of all. Let any party have a rubber stamp in parliament and we're in deep trouble.
Jim

[kiwigeo]

Having a geology degree isn't even a beginning to understanding atmospheric physics. Not knocking your degree, I've got quite a few friends who are geologists, but I've made a decent study of climate physics over the last 15 years or so, and meteorology (I'm a bit of an Eric Oldthwait I'm afraid, shovels and precipitation), and you need to do a lot of reading and listening even from a strong physics background. Then if your going to advance to "climateology" you need to grasp oceanography, palentology and history pretty darn well.

..

Actually having a degree in Geology with more exposure than most to Quaternary Geology (I trained in the South Island of NZ and worked with NZ Geological Survey for a bit) doesnt make me an expert in atmospheric physics but it gives me a bit more insight than the average layman into the history of climatic fluctuations and the basic theory/causes behind it. A large part of my time with the Geological Survey was spent staring at loess sections, paleosols, moraines glacial outwash terraces and other features that tell a story of multiple glacials and interglacial through out NZ's Quaternary history....Being a Geologist also means finding it easier to comprehend the importance of the temporal aspects of climate change (= ability to think in terms of long periods of time that extend beyond the average life span of a human).

Cheers Martin

[kiwigeo]

I agree with that, but the Extra Tax Scheme will not do that... Consumerism is an addiction and we are totally addicted..

Years ago the consumer lived in amodest three bedroom home...Today they live in a McMansion with full ensuite, a holiday every year and they eat out at least once a week..

Are you saying the addiction cant be broken? If so then thats a defeatist attitude. I dont see how eating out once a week and taking a holiday once a year having anything to do with living wastefully. Families have been taking annual holidays since year dot and eating out once a week wouldnt use much more energy and resources per capita than staying at home and cooking a meal. Im talking about things like not buying the biscuits wrapped in three layers of plastic, cutting down on landfill by composting organic waste and recycling, turning off appliances at the wall when theyre not being used, driving a sensibly sized car, walking down to the shops instead of taking the 2 minute drive, not replacing your fridge and TV simply because its not as big your neighbours, sweeping the leaves off your tiny back courtyard with a broom instead of firing up a leaf blower etc.

[.RC.]

Hadley CRU hacked with release of hundreds of docs and emails

[johnc]

And the reason for posting the link is ? it doesn't add anything, its a bit of internet traffic about a hacked terminal, and the data may not be genuine. Even if some of the emails are they could well simply be cherry picked in a a way that paints a picture different to the intent of the writer. It will not sway the issue one way or the other unless you are a conspiracy theorist in which case we could conclude rational arguement is not required and conclusions can be reached that bear no relationship to the facts.

[.RC.]

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see..

I often thought some global warming believers treat the subject like a religion....Now I believe it...

[Gingermick]

conclusions can be reached that bear no relationship to the facts.

wasn't that the point of the link

[rrobor]

johnc is correct, regardles of which side you are on you can find proof for your arguement. You can argue the floods, the worst recorded ever in England, and the hottest November day ever recorded in Victoria, are proof or coincidence, dependant on what you want to believe.
So like in the other forum, this will drag on, reaching no conclusion, till everybody has had enough. Even then there will be those who, for suspected political reasons, will try to poke more life into it by means of a sharp stick.

[johnc]

I think it proves their security is pretty lax, and if there is some manipulating of data that can be proved it will seriously damage some reputations. However manipulation of data, or the selective use of it is pretty common to the extreme elements of both sides, and it would be a good sign to see that change.

there is an article in Climate sceptics claim leaked emails are evidence of collusion among scientists | Environment | guardian.co.uk

which is a bit more balanced, however about the only thing that can be said at this stage is that it will be interesting to watch this unfold.

As extreme weather events are given as one of the effects of Climate change and that we are currently seeing both this and severe floods in Cumbria that surpass their 100 year scenarios I would expect any leverage UK skeptics gain will be netted off by those who believe the floods are yet another extreme event caused by a changing climate.