Will the real Muhammed Ali please stand up?

[Bushmiller]

I was listening to a discussion on Radio National this evening that of course was sparked by "the greatest's" recent death.

I remember his entry to the world of professional boxing. I feel that there were several stages in his life. There was the brash stage when he was still Cassius Clay and his arrogance was unsurpassed. My memory is that people hated him and really switched on their TVs hoping to see him mashed. In that of course he disappointed them. He was magnificent for the profile of professional boxing.

There was huge conjecture as to whether the fights were staged as he did not appear to really hit his opponents, but was still able to knock them out.

Then he refused to go to Vietnam and was stripped of his heavyweight crown. He had changed his name and religion and was now Muhammed Ali. When he returned to the ring after his ban was lifted the public was on his side, at least partially.

I think he is the only heavy weight to regain the title three times (Floyd Patterson did it twice).

Once he retired, he became a legend, despite the fact that early onset of Parkinson's disease when he was only forty two severely hampered his activities. He has certainly gone down in the history books as "The Greatest."

RIP

Regards
Paul

[rrich]

Paul,
It always infuriated me that he wouldn't "Take the step forward" to fight for his country because of religion but he would take many steps and climb into the ring to fight for money.

Sorry folks, no respect here.

[Bushmiller]

Rich

I am not quite clear on whether that was the real reason he was a conscientious objector. I think he may have given that as the reason, but it may have been more to do with the treatment of blacks at the time. His contention was that they were treated as sub human in their own country, but were still expected to fight on behalf of this same country.

The political and social climate of the sixties was quite different to today. I guess it did not help that the Vietnam war was hardly justifiable n the first place, although that is the benefit of hindsight as far as the general populace are concerned.

Ali was not the first boxer to see the prejudice against blacks. Jack Johnson had borne the brunt of prejudice before WW2 and of course we all know about the disgraceful treatment of Jesse Owens in the athletics field.

The very young Muhammed Ali was not a likeable person although he was good for bringing boxing to the front of the stage. His appeal was not to come until much later in his life.

Regards
Paul

[Luke Maddux]

Good post, Paul.

His career was before my time, but his legacy will endure long after. I think he's one of the most important social figures of the 20th century, and one of the "Greatest" sports figures of all time.

Cheers,
Luke

[FenceFurniture]

Paul,
It always infuriated me that he wouldn't "Take the step forward" to fight for his country because of religion but he would take many steps and climb into the ring to fight for money.

Sorry folks, no respect here.

Really? Have you not seen him say with his own "mouth from the south" that no Vietnamese had ever called him the "N" word, and "I ain't got no quarrel with them"?

Can you not see that by refusing to go, and with the status that he gained he advanced the cause of black people 10 fold? His fight for his country was on his home soil, and he did far more for it than the 58,220 American lives lost in a war that was never going to be won.

[FenceFurniture]

Norman Gunston interviews MA

[derekcohen]

Paul,
It always infuriated me that he wouldn't "Take the step forward" to fight for his country because of religion but he would take many steps and climb into the ring to fight for money.

Sorry folks, no respect here.

Rich, the refusal was to avoid killing people, especially in a war for which he could not find support (and indeed a point that many came to agree with). This is different to fighting for money.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

I was listening to a discussion on Radio National this evening that of course was sparked by "the greatest's" recent death.

I remember his entry to the world of professional boxing. I feel that there were several stages in his life. There was the brash stage when he was still Cassius Clay and his arrogance was unsurpassed. My memory is that people hated him and really switched on their TVs hoping to see him mashed. In that of course he disappointed them. He was magnificent for the profile of professional boxing.

There was huge conjecture as to whether the fights were staged as he did not appear to really hit his opponents, but was still able to knock them out.

Then he refused to go to Vietnam and was stripped of his heavyweight crown. He had changed his name and religion and was now Muhammed Ali. When he returned to the ring after his ban was lifted the public was on his side, at least partially.

I think he is the only heavy weight to regain the title three times (Floyd Patterson did it twice).

Once he retired, he became a legend, despite the fact that early onset of Parkinson's disease when he was only forty two severely hampered his activities. He has certainly gone down in the history books as "The Greatest."

RIP

Regards
Paul

Paul, I wrote this on another forum ...

It is rare that a man could affect so many people in so many ways as Ali did.

We admired his physical strength and agility, his sporting records, and his supreme confidence. We laughed at his quips and antics, and we admired his religious and political convictions (even those who disagreed). And we all were saddened and distressed when he fought on beyond his time.

Regards from Perth


Derek

[Bushmiller]

I agree Derek. It wasn't always that way. However there was a point in time, and I don't know exactly where it is, that public opinion changed and what was considered affronting by him became affection and adoption by us.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

Probably after the first fight with Frazier in 71.

[Bushmiller]

Could well be. Ali had oodles or personality compared to Frasier, and almost anybody else for that matter. For all the early loud mouth antics we tend to forget just how articulate he was. I don't know about his education, although I suspect it was minimal, but he was definitely intelligent.

Possibly right from the start of his public life he realised he could kill two birds with one stone with his attitude. He raised public awareness of the black campaign and the plight of his people and made a pile of money. I don't know which came first and does it matter?

I have just thought of an Australian parallel in the Mundine family (Tony and Anthony) and Jeff Fenech. They were unable to achieve quite the same level of awareness. Tony at any other time probably would have been world champion, but he had a problem: Carlos Monzon, who was possibly the best ever middleweight.

Yes, once upon a time I was interested in boxing. Not for a long time now.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

If you haven't seen Will Smith in "Ali" then I can highly recommend it - an excellent film, endorsed by the great man himself (although he complained that Smith wasn't really purdy enough to play him ).

[OldGrain]

Perhaps you guys might enjoy this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QGZ_V-KJmk

[derekcohen]

Great eulogy by Billy Crystal ...

https://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn#

Regards from Perth

Derek

[3 toed sloth]

I remember "Rumble in the Jungle" as a great movie/docco, and agree with you Derek about that eulogy. He was recalling an interview where Ali was talking about how fast he was...."I'm so fast I can turn the light off and be in bed before the room goes dark!.." Now that's fast.

He was a one off.