100% Methylated Spirts for French Polishing

Last weekend at the mini woodworking show I picked up a kg of Shellac Flakes from Neil (and a snazzy little notepad and pen thankyou!). Following a search on the forums for mixing instructions I noticed that there was quite some trouble tracking down 100%Methylated Spirits (ethanol). It would appear that the stuff at Bunnies have a large water quantity and there were questions raised over what was available at M10.

Anyway after finding from these forumns that Haymes Paints stocked a 100% Methylated Spirts I decided to head down to a stockist in Bay Street Port Melbourne.

I didn't see the Haymes brand but I did find "Sceneys" 100% Methylated Spirits. It quite clearly states on the label that it contains 1000mL/L ethanol for use in french polishing. Now I did fail calculus in uni the first time around but I am guessing that the 1 litre that I purchased will contain 1000mL of ethanol :doh:

There were larger sizes available but I purchased the 1L for $9.25.

The manufacturers details are as follows:

SCENEYS PTY LTD
17 Third Ave
Sunshine Vic 3020.

Just though that some recent information may be of assistance to others.

I had a similar problem - all the hardware shops will sell you shellac flakes, but NONE of them seem to keep a grade of metho suitable for using the shellac. D'oh ! :doh:

I picked up a bottle from Carbatec, but it is useful to know of other suppliers.

if you ask at a paint shop they will get it in for you. 500ml or 4 litre. You may have to register large quantity's because apparently it is - or can be - used in the production of methamphetamine (speed). I bought half a dozen 500ml bottles for about 6 bucks each if my memory serves me. Digger Brand IMS is what you ask for.

I got my metho from a floor cleaning supply shop, they had it on tap & 1 could buy in 1L amounts.

DAA Metho can be bought from Pylon Chemicals Botany in 20ltr drums.


Cheers

Steve

Thanks for the heads up on this. I recently purchased Neils Polishers handbook and when I read about the Industrial Strength Metho I was wondering where I'd get it and if the stuff I'd bought at Bunnies was of that grade.
P.S. I highly recommend Neils handbook, an invaluable reference. I bought it with one job in mind and got tips for a couple of other jobs I've got queued up.

cheers

Brian

Anyone know where i can find this on the eastern side of Melbourne around Nunwading/ Mitcham?

So far i've tried 4 paint shops, Mitre 10, Bunnings and Carbatec.

I am somewhat frustrated at the moment as this is getting ridiculous :/

If only ubeaut stocked this stuff......

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Originally Posted by Bismar

Anyone know where i can find this on the eastern side of Melbourne around Nunwading/ Mitcham?

So far i've tried 4 paint shops, Mitre 10, Bunnings and Carbatec.

I am somewhat frustrated at the moment as this is getting ridiculous :/

If only ubeaut stocked this stuff......

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The Ubeaut thing maybe to do with posting it Maybe .I don't know.
I dont use ubeaut ,You would think the shops selling The boss'e stuff would sell the metho wouldnt you?
Anyway I use 100% metho.I got it from Dahlsens in Ballarat.I live in Geelong
One ltr cost over $11.00 :oo:Check if you have a Dahlsens near you
I just struggled out to the garage for you.
No price on bottle but it is made in Melb by Sceney's Pty Ltd. 17 Third Ave Sunshine Vic 3020
It is called SCENEY'S 100% METHYLATED SPIRITS
For use in french polishing.
There you go.Dig out their number and call.Find out who they sell it to in your area.
Aussie:2tsup:
PS just saw stinkys posting #1 same address as I got off my bottle .Use your phone

Methylated spirits is actually denatured ethanol, which is ethanol that has been mixed with a small amount of another chemical - traditionally methanol hence the name "methylated". The denaturing is to make it toxic so that people wont use it to make alcoholic beverages.

100% ethanol is 100% ethanol, which means it hasn't been denatured. It shouldn't go by the name methylated spirits, although I suppose some manufacturers might label it that way so that people who don't know what ethanol is make the connection. It is obviously harder to get than methylated spirits.

However, I personally have had no water-related issues with the 95 to 99% ethanol methylated spirits that is commonly available from hardware stores. Obviously the higher the ethanol content the better, but I have used 95% without issues.

The thing is, ethanol is hygroscopic - it will take on water from the atmosphere, so even if you get 100% ethanol, you can still have problems. Which is why you should be careful using shellac in high humidity environments. If you leave the cap off a bottle of metho, it will absorb more water too.

So in short, I think that generally speaking, unless you are doing some sort of extreme french polishing, there's nothing wrong with using ordinary methylated spirits - there are probably many other things that will give you more grief in finishing than the miniscule amount of water that is in the metho. I use shellac all the time and to this date, I have not had a problem with white spotting.

I managed to get a bottle of 100% at the paint shop on Gertrude st in Fitzroy. The guy in the shop reckoned the ordinary Metho is fine for shellac.
On the plus side if your polishing job goes crap you can always make yourself a very very dry martini.

Speaking of Martinis, if you know someone with a still they can make 100% ethanol for you. In fact it's standard practice to discard the first bit out of the still because it may contain methanol, so there's your 99% ethanol methylated spirits for free if you know someone.

PS. Distilling spirits without a license is illegal in Australia (but not in NZ). :wink:

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Originally Posted by silentC

Speaking of Martinis, if you know someone with a still they can make 100% ethanol for you. In fact it's standard practice to discard the first bit out of the still because it may contain methanol, so there's your 99% ethanol methylated spirits for free if you know someone.

PS. Distilling spirits without a license is illegal in Australia (but not in NZ). :wink:

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Not 100% no. The alcohol forms an binary azeotrope with water, so you'll only get ~95% by distillation. To make absolute alcohol(>99%), you'd need to redistill it with the likes of benzene, which forms a ternary azeotrope with water/ethanol, then discard the first low boiling point mixture. To go to 100% ethanol, it would then need to be dried over something like molecular seives and opened under a dry inert atmosphere such as nitrogen or argon.
You are right that ethanol is hygroscopic Silent, and I can't understand how it is more effective than standard metho(not having done any french polishing, I am not claiming that it isn't) because by the time you've mixed it, put it on a rag, and wiped it in a thin layer over the surface, it certainly would have picked up a considerable amount of water. Perhaps it has something to do with the initial dissolving of the shellac.:?
BTW, I think stills for personal use up to 5l capacity are legal in OZ.
Cheers
Michael

OK, that's my misunderstanding of the process. I assumed it was boiled off in the still at a temperature that evaporates ethanol only. The process you describe sounds very high-tech. I wonder how they made their 100% ethanol a hundred years ago :)

I must admit I've never understood what the 95% - 99% refers to. I understand that it's 95% ethanol, but I assumed that the other 5% was the denaturing chemical/s, not exclusively water. Yet that contradicts what I've read elsewhere where it is suggested that 95% methylated spirits contains 5% water.

Regarding stills, I found this:

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Under the Distillation Act 1901 (Cwlth) it is an offence to distil any spirit without first obtaining a licence from the Excise Business Line of the Australian Taxation Office (maximum penalty $5000).

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http://www.dassa.sa.gov.au/site/page...124#production

That might be redundant though.

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Originally Posted by silentC

So in short, I think that generally speaking, unless you are doing some sort of extreme french polishing, there's nothing wrong with using ordinary methylated spirits

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There is nothing wrong with using 95 % metho with shellac. If you are putting this mixture on by brush you will not find any difference at all. :D

You can also use this mixture if you are french polishing, that is applying with a pad many thing coats to build up a shine. HOWEVER using the 100 % meth makes a considerable difference in time spent applying the shellac.

To get the same finish and shine using 100 % meth can reduce the time spent polishing by at least half, for you don't have to remove the water content by polishing, also more coats can be applied in a session.

As the 100 % reduces the time spent polishing it is worth getting if it is locally available but it's not essential.

Peter.

OK, that seems to make sense.

I apply with a rubber but I don't French polish. I just wipe on and wait, wipe on again etc etc. I find that the first 4 or 5 coats go on very quickly one after the other, but as the finish builds up it takes longer to flash off (presumably because the subsequent coat is melting into the coats beneath and as it gets deeper it takes longer to reset). I then either sand/burnish/wax or just leave it as is. I happen to like the look of unadulterated shellac.

Neil says to only use 100% ethanol for French Polish in his book, so I will have to bow down to his greater knowledge in that field. All I'm saying is that people who are having great difficulty locating the stuff will in all probability find that they'll get as good results from shellac with 95-99% as I have found, so maybe give it a go before busting a gut running all over town and paying top dollar for it.

And as this topic has come up before numerous times, people wanting more information might also, respectfully, do a search :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silentC

OK, that's my misunderstanding of the process. I assumed it was boiled off in the still at a temperature that evaporates ethanol only. The process you describe sounds very high-tech. I wonder how they made their 100% ethanol a hundred years ago :)

I must admit I've never understood what the 95% - 99% refers to. I understand that it's 95% ethanol, but I assumed that the other 5% was the denaturing chemical/s, not exclusively water. Yet that contradicts what I've read elsewhere where it is suggested that 95% methylated spirits contains 5% water.

Regarding stills, I found this:



http://www.dassa.sa.gov.au/site/page...124#production

That might be redundant though.

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Interesting isn't it, distillation. Yes, most of the other 5% is water, with just traces of the denaturing material.
Yes, I wonder how they ever did FP hundreds of years ago without 100% alcohol:wink: Well in truth they didn't, because it didn't exist and doesn't exist except in the lab. The stuff that these days sells as 100% methylated spirits is just denatured absolute alcohol, it will be something like 99-99.8% ethanol, the remainder water and denaturing agent (<0.1%). It's 100% methylated spirits in the same way as red cordial concentrate is 100% cordial.
I would say absolute ethanol would have easily been made for the last couple of hundred years, it's just a distillation process, anhydrous (100%) ethanol is a more recent beast.
Cheers
Michael

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silentC

All I'm saying is that people who are having great difficulty locating the stuff will in all probability find that they'll get as good results from shellac with 95-99% as I have found, so maybe give it a go before busting a gut running all over town and paying top dollar for it.

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Agree, when I got mine I had to go to the other side of town but as I also bought turps, paintstripper, shellac flakes and a quantity of soap I still saved over $90 at the time. Worth the effort and made the polishing easier.

One thing to be aware of is that the generic stuff from Bunnings is often much less than 95 % often more closely to 60 %. So get a brand name like Diggers Rest or Haymes or similar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silentC

And as this topic has come up before numerous times, people wanting more information might also, respectfully, do a search :)

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Also agree as that advice should be engraved on all members forehead.:D



Peter.