Help-Mouse ate my fujitsu split system head aircon electronics

The aircon installer did not fill the hole for piping to head although recommended in installation manual and mouse came through wall cavity into the head unit up the aircon pipes and chewed the electronics and wires inside the head unit.

Now I have huge bill for repairs

Bloody installers ignore manufacturers recommendations and do not seal the hole for piping to head. They can easily put expanding foam in this hole to fill gaps.

The mouse climbs up pipes and eats electronics.

Bloody installers!

I would write a letter to the installers, pointing out that they did not follow the manufacturer's recomendations for installation which has lead directly to the damage. Ask them to make good the damage and fit vermin proofing as per manufacturer's instructions. Cross your fingers and hope they come good. If they don't you could consider legal action, or at least get a solicitor to write a letter for you ointing out their legal obligations and threatening to pursue legal action to recover your repair and legal costs.

Mick

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

I would write a letter to the installers, pointing out that they did not follow the manufacturer's recomendations for installation which has lead directly to the damage. Ask them to make good the damage and fit vermin proofing as per manufacturer's instructions. Cross your fingers and hope they come good. If they don't you could consider legal action, or at least get a solicitor to write a letter for you ointing out their legal obligations and threatening to pursue legal action to recover your repair and legal costs.

Mick

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The put capping on outside wall to conceal pipes. But mice come through the tiny external air-breathing holes of external wall into internal wall cavity and find their way into tiny gaps left in the hole for head unit pipe entry .

I heard it is standard practice not to fill the tiny gaps left in the hole for entry of pipes to head. They never do this in Australia.

I'd say that you have an insurance claim there (I take it you are insured).

I was a claims assessor and I'd be claiming. I wouldn't immediately acknowledge that you are aware that it wasn't installed exactly as per instructions, if you know what I mean.

But that said I think it may well still be a claim even if you do tell them. As it is clearly damage by vermin which is covered in most policies.

They can only say no you know.

Cheers



Dave

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Originally Posted by Learner

.............I heard it is standard practice not to fill the tiny gaps left in the hole for entry of pipes to head. They never do this in Australia.

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I've always seen it done on jobs that I've worked on.

Mick

We've done it both ways. (Yet another of my past occupations. :roll:)

The dealership sold units on a "no-installation" basis, but provided the customers with a couple of phone numbers, including ours, as recommended installers.

Our std. fee covered labour and materials for a straight forward installation but if there were "extras" such as colour matched flashing, long pipe runs (ie. extra copper and regassing) and the like there was a corresponding price hike. Our profits were only about $50- per instal, less fuel expenses - divided between the two of us. Don't get me wrong: we worked our buns off to squeeze in a few units each day, so we weren't crying poor.

Even so, there were people who'd accept the quoted fee, then once we were on-site try to grind us down until they were getting all the extras for less than a std. installation. As often as not they succeeded, but in all honesty they only got what they paid for.

Bodgy price = bodgy installation. :q

Anyone with an ounce of brains should know not to off the installer of their new toy... at least, not until the job is done!

(Hey! Who hit the "reminisce" switch? :B)

This is dangerous both to the mouse and the air-conditioner.

The mouse could get an electric shock or eat something toxic. This will severely shorten the life of the mouse.

And the air-conditioner could be eaten, shorted out or otherwise damaged. This will severely shorten the life of the air-conditioner.

I recommend that a mouse not be kept in the air-conditioner for this reason. It's much safe for both if the mouse is kept somewhere else. A cage is a good option. :p:p

OK, not a good attempt at humour. Seriously, I do think you have an insurance claim here unless your policy doesn't cover rodent damage.

Failing that I would be writing to the installers mentioning that you are investigating the possibility of a class action against them. Don't elaborate, just mention the possibility of a class action. And don't say that you are doing it, just that you are investigating the possibility. This will scare the you know what out of them if they have even a rough idea what this would involve and odds are they'll just pay the repair bill for you and/or pay you to keep quiet.

As long as you state that you are investigating such options and not that you will actually be doing them, you won't be caught out bluffing if they don't pay up. Worst case you waste an hour or so writing the letter plus 50 cents for postage. Be sure to sign the letter.

All this is assuming that you've approached them in a friendly manner first asking that they pay the cost of repairs. Always try the friendly approach before anything else - works most of the time but not always.

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Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

We've done it both ways. (Yet another of my past occupations. :roll:)

The dealership sold units on a "no-installation" basis, but provided the customers with a couple of phone numbers, including ours, as recommended installers.

Our std. fee covered labour and materials for a straight forward installation but if there were "extras" such as colour matched flashing, long pipe runs (ie. extra copper and regassing) and the like there was a corresponding price hike. Our profits were only about $50- per instal, less fuel expenses - divided between the two of us. Don't get me wrong: we worked our buns off to squeeze in a few units each day, so we weren't crying poor.

Even so, there were people who'd accept the quoted fee, then once we were on-site try to grind us down until they were getting all the extras for less than a std. installation. As often as not they succeeded, but in all honesty they only got what they paid for.

Bodgy price = bodgy installation. :q

Anyone with an ounce of brains should know not to off the installer of their new toy... at least, not until the job is done!

(Hey! Who hit the "reminisce" switch? :B)

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i DO NOT LIKE AIR-CON INSTALLERS:~

The best job I saw was where they had stuffed the penetration with a pair of undies. Not to sure where they came from but I hope they were clean.

But don't get me started on dodgy installs I have seen and have photos of hundreds, some you wouldn't even beleive without the photos.

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Originally Posted by Learner

i DO NOT LIKE AIR-CON INSTALLERS:~

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I thought I'd replied to this? Another one goes to the great bit-bucket in the sky, it seems. :roll:

The gist of my reply was: no aspersions were being thrown in your general direction, Learner. I was simply pointing out that we did things both ways, and gave one reason why.

But as with any trade, there are cowboys who do bodgy jobs 100% of the time.

Aussie aircon installers bad.

Final verdict

Stick a cat in the cavity. :2tsup:


:D

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Originally Posted by Learner

Aussie aircon installers bad.

Final verdict

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So you've met every air-con installer in Australia in the last two weeeks and observed their work practices have you?:(( Sweeping generalisations like this are no better than "All Americans are loud mouth know it alls" because clearly they're not (and just as clearly, some are). Mick

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

So you've met every air-con installer in Australia in the last two weeeks and observed their work practices have you?:(( Sweeping generalisations like this are no better than "All Americans are loud mouth know it alls" because clearly they're not (and just as clearly, some are). Mick

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No but a system that makes aircon installers apprentices to senior aircon installers who have followed wrong practice for years is clearly flawed.

What use is a compliance certificate when no one takes responsibility including the plumbing authority for dodgy installations and installers avoid precisely following a manufacturers recommendations.

No one covers you with workmanship warranty for hole gap filling.

Real apprenticeship and training is not about joining pipes, but learning about making holes in walls and closing them properly, climbing ladders, removing and replacing roof tiles, capping, leveling units, bolting outdoor units to the floor slab, placing outdoor units in places with sufficient space away from the wall for adequate air intake ventilation from the rear of the unit, making oil traps etc.

If aircon installation training was about joining pipes or vacuuming systems, refrigerant gas etc. I could learn this in just one week in a Tafe.

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Originally Posted by Learner

No but a system that makes aircon installers apprentices to senior aircon installers who have followed wrong practice for years is clearly flawed...................

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Learner, you are making assumptions about the system and all
the people that work in it based on your one experience.

Do you know for a fact that all installers follow the wrong practices and have done so for years?

Like I said earlier, if you can show that the problem was caused by the installers not following the manufacturer's recomendations then they should be liable for repairs. You could/should have followed it up via consumer affairs in your state, or failing that, get a solicitor to write a letter to the company threatening legal action.

I find it extremely offensive that you pronounce that all air con installers in Australia do a bad job when clearly, you have no way of measuring this. Only a narrow bigotted mind passes judgement on an entire group of people based on a single experience with one person in the group. Oh, and in case you're wondering, I'm not an air-con installer.

Mick

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Learner, you are making assumptions about the system and all
the people that work in it based on your one experience.

Do you know for a fact that all installers follow the wrong practices and have done so for years?

Like I said earlier, if you can show that the problem was caused by the installers not following the manufacturer's recomendations then they should be liable for repairs. You could/should have followed it up via consumer affairs in your state, or failing that, get a solicitor to write a letter to the company threatening legal action.

I find it extremely offensive that you pronounce that all air con installers in Australia do a bad job when clearly, you have no way of measuring this. Only a narrow bigotted mind passes judgement on an entire group of people based on a single experience with one person in the group. Oh, and in case you're wondering, I'm not an air-con installer.

Mick

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I have spoken to countless aircon installers and they are following the same crappy methods of installation.

Here is what the fujitsu manual says

1. Use a vacuum pump for R407 exclusively.
- No aircon installer had an exclusive vacuum pump for R407

2. Use a clean guage manifold and charging hose for R407 exclusively
-Not followed

3. Use the wall cap provided (like a rubber grommet) for through hole pipe connection on the indoor wall side
-Most installers discard this grommet and do not make a proper circular hole of the dimensions specified in the manual. They make a hole of a size they are used to.

4.Use cloth tape provided by fujitsu. It is like a bandage of special material for the joint heat insulation between indoor and outdoor pipe .
- Discarded by installers. They use crap ducting tape.

5. Fill the gap between the outside wall pipe hole and the pipe with sealer putty so that water and wind cannot blow in.
- They just cover the outdoor hole with outdoor capping. No putty sealing.

If you want more information on crap jobs by SCREWDRIVER AIRCON TECHNICIANS JUST ASK.

THANKS

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Originally Posted by Learner

I have spoken to countless aircon installers..............

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I find that a bit hard to believe. I mean there's what, 20 million people in Australia and I'd assume that only some of them are A/C installers. Let's say there's 20,000 AC installers in Australia. I can count to 20,000 so it's not a "countless" number of installers. Just make a guess now, how many installers did you talk to, 5, 25, 50? So why did you expend all this energy questioning them? You might have been better served exploring and pursuing ways of recovering the repair costs you incurred due to an incorrect installation.

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Originally Posted by Learner

1. Use a vacuum pump for R407 exclusively.
- No aircon installer had an exclusive vacuum pump for R407
..............

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Are you sure that Fujitsu specifies that this model A/C can only be evacuated by a pump that is designed exclusively for it and no other model or brand? :? I would suggest that the manual is a poor translation of Japanese and what they mean is that a vacuum pump is to be used to the exclusion of any other method (ie purging the lines by gassing them). A vacuum pump is a vacuum pump is a vacuum pump. As long as it's got the correct connections and gets down to the correct vacuum pressure (or whatever the term is) I can't see that it would make any difference.


You're trying to make out that you've carried out an in depth investigation into the practices of the majority of A/C installers in Australia or a representive sample of them so that you can slander an entire group of people. You've had a bad experience and lost money due to a combination of misfortune and poor practices, maybe it's just Karma. :roll:

Mick

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Are you sure that Fujitsu specifies that this model A/C can only be evacuated by a pump that is designed exclusively for it and no other model or brand? :? I would suggest that the manual is a poor translation of Japanese and what they mean is that a vacuum pump is to be used to the exclusion of any other method (ie purging the lines by gassing them). A vacuum pump is a vacuum pump is a vacuum pump. As long as it's got the correct connections and gets down to the correct vacuum pressure (or whatever the term is) I can't see that it would make any difference.


You're trying to make out that you've carried out an in depth investigation into the practices of the majority of A/C installers in Australia or a representive sample of them so that you can slander an entire group of people. You've had a bad experience and lost money due to a combination of misfortune and poor practices, maybe it's just Karma. :roll:

Mick

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The manual was written by experts . It is 100 percent correct english and acurate technically. The use of an exclusive vacuum pump is based on scientific principles of contamination or mixing of different substances which must be avoided.

Here is another sentance from the manual

"Use a vacuum pump for R407C exclusively.Using the same vacuum pump for different refrigerant may damage the vacuum pump or the unit."

Any other questions please?

Learner your post has come to my attention.

Are you asking for help or have you another reason for your post?

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Originally Posted by jow104

Learner you post has come to my attention.

Are you asking for help or have you another reason for your post?

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Unfortunately no one is willing to help when you have a big bill for repairs. You are basically on your own and not covered under any sort of warranty or insurance etc..

Learner,

from what you've posted Fujitsu are not specifying a pump specifically for that model of AC unit but for the type of refrigerant gas Perhaps there's other stuff in there you've not comprehended correctly.

Some more questions:
1. How much effort did you put into resolving the original issue you had? (ie solve the problem rather than playing the blame game)
2.How many A/C installers did you quiz about their work practices? C'mon a guess will do, you must have some idea.
3.How much time did this take you?
4.What reasons did you give for polling all these A/C installers for your in depth questions regarding exclusive pumps for your model of AC?
5.Didn't any of them explain to you that you were mistaken in believing that Fujitsu required a vacuum pump for exclusive use on your particular model AC and no other?
6. How did you know that they weren't using a clean guage manifold and charging hose? Did you ask, or was it observation?
7. Do you know how to tell if these items were clean?
8. How do you know that "Most installers discard this grommet and do not make a proper circular hole of the dimensions specified in the manual. They make a hole of a size they are used to"? Have you asked most installers? have you gone around and measured the size holes they drill? You must have been a very busy boy the last few weeks.
9. How do you know that "most" installers use duct tape rather than the tape provided by Fujitsu"?
10. How do you know what's under the capping of all those AC units? You are right in that they wouldn't have used "putty". Putty is a mixture of whiting and linseed oil used to fit glass in frames in traditional style glazing. It's highly unlikely anyone would use it to stop holes for an AC installation. They'd be more likely to use expanding polyurethane foam, acrylic gapfiller or polyurethane sealant.


Mick

Learner,

Mick is quite right in what he points out. You have had a bad experience but that does not give you the right to go off like some brainless hot head and blame every installer in the country. I am sure there are many good installers, and I have had no problems with anything I have had installed. Stick to the problem you have with the installer you ended up with and you have my sympathy but to slander an entire industry on the basis of what appears to be a single experience makes me wonder if you have any idea about the subject you are pontificating on.

John:~

Hey Learner, you've been moaning and carrying on like a pork chop for two weeks now. But I'm not sure if you are asking for advice or just trying to impress us with how much you know about installing one model of airconditioner.

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Unfortunately no one is willing to help when you have a big bill for repairs. You are basically on your own and not covered under any sort of warranty or insurance etc..

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Sadly, it doesn't look as though you know the right people.

Two weeks ago you were given some advice that you should be covered by insurance. Did you make a claim? Or were you too busy talking to countless air conditioning installers?

Don't tell me you didn't have insurance? Perhaps the well-written insurance manual didn't advise that you need that in case of rodent attack?

How do you know the mouse came from outside? From my experience it's more likely that it was hanging around in the wall cavity, but you never know. If the job was so shoddy, and you knew it was because you've obviously fully supervised the bloke what he was installing it, why didn't you pull him up when he was doing it?

Why did you pay for it?

Hey, you've had a bit of hard luck. How about getting on with life and fixing it and forgetting about it? You could have had it fixed in a day I'm sure.

Cheers,

P

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Originally Posted by Learner

Unfortunately no one is willing to help when you have a big bill for repairs. You are basically on your own and not covered under any sort of warranty or insurance etc..

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Have you tried helping yourself yet?
Have you contacted your state's department of consumer affairs or its equivalent?
Did you write a letter to the installers pointing out that the reason the mouse was able to access the unit's electronics and damage them, was due to their installation practice and that you would hold them liable for repair costs?
Did you get a solicitor to write a letter of demand?
Did you try to make a claim on your home insurance?

Sometimes having a bitch and moan to get things off your chest is good, but if that's all you do rather than trying to identify and solve the problem, well you're going to be an unhappy chappy who blames everyone else for his own unhappiness.
If you want to blame anyone then blame the original installer, don't blame the entire industry. That's the sort of thinking that gives the world racism and terrorism.

Mick

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

That's the sort of thinking that gives the world racism and terrorism.

Mick

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And the Aquaducts! Don't forget the Aquaducts!

P
:D:D:D

are you sure it wasnt a Rat?

Learner,

Quite often installation manuals are written for global use and don't necessarily comply with the relevant codes of practice. Not so much in higher end units but it still happens.
It doesn't matter what vac pump is used. You do however need to change the oil in the pump before pulling down a system. If a pump can pull a sub 100 micron vacuum, it doesnt matter.

Also it makes no difference if its a 407c or 410a system. I can explain simply. 407c is just 410a with a 52%blend of 134a to bring the pressures down to the similar characteristics of r22. HFC refrigerants need POE, and a lot of new r22 systems also carry the same oil. really the vac pump oil should be changed for every pull down.

Now with system evacuation, the minimum vacuum required for a deep pulldown is 1000 microns. I doubt any tradesmen would go any less than 500. I personally aim for 100 microns. Whether or not a pump has been used for another refrigerant isn't a factor.

It is true though, you need one set of gauges for POE lubricated systems, and another for mineral oil systems.

The fabric tape supplied with most splitties is rubbish. proper UV stabilised thermal tape is a better product, it costs extra but is worth it.

BTW I'm a refrigeration/airconditioning mechanic, not an installer. i spent more than the 5 days at tafe that it takes to get an arctick licence.

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Originally Posted by Timmo

BTW I'm a refrigeration/airconditioning mechanic, not an installer. i spent more than the 5 days at tafe that it takes to get an arctick licence.

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Well spoken Timmo.

Don't all installers have to be techs? Or is there a dodgy way round it?

P
:wink:

Electricians and plumbers can get a license to instal and commission split systems up to 18kw with a 1 week course. you can also do a course for a restricted license up to 18kw installation. not sure on the details but its on the arctick website. www.arctick.org.

I can whinge and moan about them having a license, but in reality, these trades are over regulated anyway. Me holding a license does not make me a better tradesman, it just makes me insurable.

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Originally Posted by Timmo

Learner,


The fabric tape supplied with most splitties is rubbish. proper UV stabilised thermal tape is a better product, it costs extra but is worth it.

BTW I'm a refrigeration/airconditioning mechanic, not an installer. i spent more than the 5 days at tafe that it takes to get an arctick licence.

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They do not use any thermal UV tape. Just duct tape

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Originally Posted by bitingmidge

Hey Learner, you've been moaning and carrying on like a pork chop for two weeks now. But I'm not sure if you are asking for advice or just trying to impress us with how much you know about installing one model of airconditioner.



Sadly, it doesn't look as though you know the right people.

Two weeks ago you were given some advice that you should be covered by insurance. Did you make a claim? Or were you too busy talking to countless air conditioning installers?

Don't tell me you didn't have insurance? Perhaps the well-written insurance manual didn't advise that you need that in case of rodent attack?

How do you know the mouse came from outside? From my experience it's more likely that it was hanging around in the wall cavity, but you never know. If the job was so shoddy, and you knew it was because you've obviously fully supervised the bloke what he was installing it, why didn't you pull him up when he was doing it?

Why did you pay for it?

Hey, you've had a bit of hard luck. How about getting on with life and fixing it and forgetting about it? You could have had it fixed in a day I'm sure.

Cheers,

P

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The system was under warranty. The fujitsu guys came and had a look and found a dead mouse with all mouse droppings and chewed wires in the head unit.

They said it is not covered under warranty because job was not done to manufacturers recommendations.

I spoke to plumbing commission. They only cover plumbing work and not problems with holes in walls etc.

Fujitsu want 400 dollars to replace the circuit board. It is an inverter unit.

Insurance will not cover a failed airconditioning/electrical item

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Originally Posted by Learner

Fujitsu want 400 dollars to replace the circuit board. It is an inverter unit.

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Then I suggest you hand it to them quick smart before they raise prices.

It is probably in your interest to pay the $400, and get the unit fixed properly. Then explore your options of recovering the $400 from the installer, he might pay all or part, if its none there is always small claims/consumer affairs. For $400 I'd get over it and move on, its not enough to warrant loosing hours of your time and further costs to recover. Wage slaves seem to get up in arms over these things, for the self employed you soon learn you are going to come across people who will not or cannot pay, its life, get over it and find something else more positive to occupy your mind.

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Originally Posted by Honorary Bloke

Then I suggest you hand it to them quick smart before they raise prices.

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Oh dear

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Originally Posted by johnc

It is probably in your interest to pay the $400, and get the unit fixed properly. Then explore your options of recovering the $400 from the installer, he might pay all or part, if its none there is always small claims/consumer affairs. For $400 I'd get over it and move on, its not enough to warrant loosing hours of your time and further costs to recover. Wage slaves seem to get up in arms over these things, for the self employed you soon learn you are going to come across people who will not or cannot pay, its life, get over it and find something else more positive to occupy your mind.

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I have to pay to get it fixed. No other option

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Originally Posted by Learner

They do not use any thermal UV tape. Just duct tape

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You fighting this isnt going to help you get your air con working again.

I think maybe stand back and think about it for a second, myself; i have 5 split systems installed in my house with no problems, the guy who installed all 5 over a year period did a fantastic job on all of them, you are telling the world that he is a useless tradie when clearly you do not know him.

I think the thread is getting a bit out of hand, is any of this going to fix your rodent problem? no?

....go buy some mouse traps

I designed my house to work with the climate, so I don't have any airconditioning. I reckon air conditioning is the biggest cop out for not putting the proper effort into designing correctly and insulating properly that we have yet seen.

We don't eat cheese, so no mice either! :wink:

Cheers,

P
:D

This bloke lives in a stump in our driveway, I'll rent him out. :2tsup:

(Stupid picture won't load. :~)

Fixed.... he was TOO big. :rolleyes:

https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...1&d=1202477597

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Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers

This bloke lives in a stump in our driveway, I'll rent him out. :2tsup:

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But won't he need a bigger hole to fit through............

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Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers

This bloke lives in a stump in our driveway, I'll rent him out. :2tsup:

(Stupid picture won't load. :~)

Fixed.... he was TOO big. :rolleyes:

https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...1&d=1202477597

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Glad you got him back.:D:D