We're laying Merbau decking over treated pine bearers. Should I use screws or nails?
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We're laying Merbau decking over treated pine bearers. Should I use screws or nails?
Screws. Nails will lift over time witt the flexing of the deck timber, and have to be regularly banged in again. Trust me I've been there!
Thanx JackO, I thought that might be the case.
I've just done the exercise of re-tightening all 1200 screws on my deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardwoodjoint
It took several hours, but at least I could do it without damaging the
deck surface. (Amazing how the deck no longer creaks when I walk
on it. :wink:)
BTW, I used those 7g x 65mm s/s screws that Bunnings sells in large
quantities. So I now know that their heads are too small to hold the
decking boards securely over time as they expand, flex, etc, under
sun and rain. I.e: the heads tend to pull through the boards.
If I did it again, I'd use 10g even though the latter are more visible.
I might still do that (i.e: replace the 7g ones). Does anyone want some
2nd-hand 7g x 65mm s/s screws? :D
I've never had any trouble with the galv (twist) decking nails either lifting or moving, but have used hardwood underneath. But then if you don't like using a hammer these may not suit.
John.
Thanx for the tip. Going to Bunnies tomorrow night to stock up
Definitely use 10g screws as anything smaller the timber can snap the heads off with expansion and contraction. Particularly around a pool or garden where wetting the drying of the timber occurs.
Buy the screws from a fixing supplier by the 1000. It's cheaper.
Nails or Screw????
It depends a lot on whether you purchase and install the right ones for the job in the first place..........
I have done thousands and thousands of each both with there positives
If you don't hammer all the time spend the extra and screw the deck its a better job and you will be able to work for much longer periods as your odds of nailing 10kg of 65mm titadecks in a sitting will be slim and none where screwing them in is much higher
The right screws for fixing 19mm thick merbau to treated pine joists are
10g type 17 square drive countersunk stainless wood screws 50mm long not the imitation stainless chipboard jobs that are easily found at main stream hardwares and not trim heads ....
You will need to buy a decent countersink and pilot bit ...carbitool sell a great one that will not clog and do about 10 - 15000 screws cost $45
Don't believe that the type 17 will self drill and the head self countersink..
Yes it will do all these things most times but the boards will split if not today in a few months when the boards dry out
The best tool for fitting the screws is a corrdless impact driver as a tech screw gun doesn't have the torque and neither does a power drill , a cordless drill would prob pass for a while but it would want to be a good one.... It will depend on the amount of screws being fixed... We run up to 3 impact drivers with 2 - 3 batteries each when screwing the decks off and will fix approx 2000 screws in 1hr or so
Trim heads will pull through the board eventually if it wants to move bad enough
Chipboard or 8G will snap just below the countersunk head
Phillips head will reem there heads and annoy the hell out of you
Nails
The best nail for the job is a 65mm titadeck hit in with a hammer and done with a pilot hole in the board first......
50mm nails and gun nails are a hit and miss affair where you'll be lucky today and not tomorrow
Hope my ramble helps and saves you some time
cheers Utemad
www.dialadeck.com.au
My deck was recently done buy a builder who used a coil nailer. This left some nails sitting with the dome head flush or slightly proud, and others where the nail has gone a couple of mm into the merbu, leaving a 2mm hole above them. Are these holes going to be an issue down the track? Should I go around and knock all the nails in and fill the holes ? (Painful job) :( Or do you think i can just leaver it as is. It's got about 4 coats of decking oil on it and will get one every 6 or 12 months. the deck is exposed (no roof)Quote:
Originally Posted by UteMad
I must admit I dont hammer all the time, but I am building only a single deck so a little extra time is not a concern. Its for a house I dont intend selling for the next 10 to 15 years. I may move out, but I am keeping the property, so long lasting is a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by UteMad
I am looking at fixing hardwood decking, such as 19mm thick merbau to hardward joists. Would you still recommend the same type of screw. I see it is square drive, do they look like the hexagonal allen key type setups? Any recommendations for a brand a pic so I can get an idea of what your talking about. I always hate asking in store and getting cornered by a some guy trying to sell me something else I did't want in the first place. I spotted this on ebay a counter sink and pre drill on one. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/DECKING-SMART...QQcmdZViewItemQuote:
Originally Posted by UteMad
Great advice, always good to learn from others mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by UteMad
I did not quiet follow these comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by UteMad
Are you talking hot dipped galvanised or stainless. Any other issues with stainless besides the additioanl cost. Should 65x3.15 Titadeck deformed shank nail should be used?Quote:
Originally Posted by UteMad
A couple people have tried to sell me on getting a coil nailer and recon with the correct twisted decking nails it should cause no problems. I am interested on your thoughts on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by UteMad
I've built more than a few decks in my time, mostly hardwood decking on hardwood joists, but a few with treated pine decking. For hardwood decking on hardwood joists it's pretty much standard to go with 50mm bullet head gal nails, with the ends of boards predrilled to prevent splitting. Never had a call back for any popped boards and it's been well over ten years for some of the decks. As the joists will still be pretty green they will shrink around the nails as they dry. If you want to remove these nails you'll generally need to lean on the end of a decent wrecking bar. I've done a few decks with 'dektites' a small metal bracket that does away with face nailing and spaces the bottom of the boards off the joists for airflow. A very good but time consuming method of fixing. I would be very suprised if you have any boards pop loose if you use hot dip gal nails into hardwood joists.
Mick
The stainless screws that have been talked about are usually square-driveQuote:
Originally Posted by BrissyBrew
(yes, like hex-drive but square). The square drive makes them less susceptible
to being stripped than (say) philips head. (This is less of an issue with gal
screws, which use normal stronger steel.)
Possibly the most important phrase to utter to a hardware salesperson is
"type-17". This refers to a special type of self-drilling tip. The screw can cut
a path for its own thread as you drive it. You still need to pre-drill if you're
going into hardwood joists, but the pilot hole can be a bit narrower: the screw
will cut a helical path for its thread as it goes in. This results in more secure
fastening, as well as (much) easier insertion.
If you're using stainless screws (recommended), you've got to watch out
for stripping the heads. A driver with a torque control is essential. You
might also need to withdraw the screw, clear the type-17 tip, and re-insert.
Even better, if you can find gal screws of the same gauge and thread pitch,
you can use one of these to cut the thread path, then withdraw it and
insert a stainless screw. That way, the tougher gal screw is doing the
hard work and if its head gradually strips, just chuck it out and use
another. This strategy only works if the thread pitch (turns per inch)
is exactly the same on both types of screw.
As for brands, I know that my local Mitre-10 stocks 10gx50mm sq-drive
stainless countersunk screws packed by "TopFix". But I'd go for 60mm
if you can find them, following the rule of thumb that the screw should
penetrate into the joist to at least twice the thickness of the board being
secured. For 20mm decking boards, that means 40mm in the joist,
i.e: a 60mm screw. But 50mm is probably ok if you can't get 60mm.
My local timber yard also stocks a different brand (and in larger-quantity
packs) - so you should probably check with your local timber
merchants as well as hardware stores.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby
Hi Gumby
Assuming the right nail was used in the coil gun in the first place it is done by plenty of contractors but not us... The manufacturer would say to use a stainless 50mm ring nail either dome or flat head for fixing hardwood to treated joists and a screw shank into hardwood joists.....
I have grilled the supllier over this point and they will not warrant there product against either split boards or popped nails for any period.....
I find that the depth even though the gun is adjustable isn't as accurate like you say cause some boards are more dense than others.... You will be more prone to popped nails than the 65mm titadecks hand nailed thats for sure but it doesn't mean it will happen for sure either....we maintain decks also and have one thatss 3 year old merbau 90mm fixed with coil gun and these haven't popped but the deck isn't highly trafficed ..... Don't punch them its a waste of time and the nails wont be able to hold the extra down force so all you will do is loosen there hold on the joist and incourage them to rise
cheers utemad
www.dialadeck.com.au
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrissyBrew
Hi Brissybrew
I'll try and answer all your questions but if i miss a few prompt me...
1* your better off with stainless screws
2* Bremick and Macsim both make good 50mm 10Gauge type 17 square drive countersunk stainless steel screws not trim heads .... cost 150 - 200 per thousand retail i spose
3*I have looked at the bit on ebay and its the right idea ....the same guy sells the screws aswell ...from memory its a stainless guy in newcastle i think...I prefer the carbi tool one cause it has a tungsten tipped counter sink but that won't effect you for a few thousand cause they take nearly 5000 screws to wear in...they cost approx 45 - 50 bucks
4* If you use nails you can't get the titadecks in stainless in 65mm x 3.15 anywhere i have searched so we use galvenised and you predrill the boards for all nails to 1/8 hole
5* Stay away from coil gunning deck down
6*If you buy screws square drive only cause you'll bur the heads out of the phillips and the downward pressure you need to apply is like 10 fold
7*if you have heaps to screw hire an electric impact driver its like a baby rattle gun
Hope this helps some
Cheers Utemad
www.dialadeck.com.au
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman Mick
Hi MickQuote:
Originally Posted by journeyman Mick
Your definately not wrong the standards state a 50mm x 2.8 bullet head nail to fix decking to hardwood joists..... I love it when i see it cause it keeps me making $$$$$ usually takes a few years the nails start to rise the customer whacks them back down the hole in the joist is now to large and its game over either pull the nail out and replace it with a titadeck or have the decking all replaced or renailed .... Usually when we go out they can't remember who did it or he is no longer around either way it will have to be redone .......
Use titadecks 50mm into hardwood joists and 65mm into treated joists.. you can use 50mm if the boards are only 3 inch into treated cause its cupping power isn't as great.....
Cheers utemad
Utemad,
I don't think you'd be making any money off my decks. Like I said, some of them are well over ten years old (getting on for 20) and I've kept an excellent relationship with most of my customers so usually come back for any maintenance.
Never had to replace any popped boards.
After about ten years in the tropical sun and monsoonal rain (measured in metres per year) fungal decay is a bigger issue. But then, that's just the way I see it done up here, by everybody in the industry. Until I experience problems with it that's the way I'll keep doing it, or at least I would, If I wasn't busy building kitchens instead.
Mick
Hi Journey Mick
Nah don't think i would be as your not in sydney LOL
If it works there stick with it the small head would be more appealing to look at....thats the motto we use .... Here in sydney be it timber or climate what ever 50 mm bullet heads pop up above the board face all the time.... usaually by 3mm or so and settle at that....
Like i said not saying its wrong what your doing ...the standards agrees with you that is the correct fastener for the job ..... We just don't believe it is for us or sydney and prefer titadecks or screws and on 6 inch boards bugel batten screws
cheers utemad
Utemad,
only ever used bugle battens for a commercial deck, 150 x 30mm boards. Lot of work for a deck. I enjoyed doing the outdoor stuff while I was doing it, but I'm happy to be working indoors mostly nowadays.
Mick
Hi Mick
I tell you if i had a choice now i would have considered inside work too some days ....No more looking at the sky to dictate your day....
Yeah we only do the stainless bugels on 150 x 32 hardwood .... we have a 240v rattle gun with a bit to suit.... Puts them in easily but by the time you countersink and stuff around with end joins it aint worth the bother...
90mm is far more cost effective for the customer as it uses 30% less fixings than 70mm so is quicker to lay...... Its a pitty the way kitchens have gone with eurethene and all the flash finishes cause it means a chippy can no longer build one himself only assemble them now....
cheers utemad
UteMad
Thanks for all the advice. You almost have me convinced to screw the decking over nailing.I did read one thread on the forum about heads shearing off, something to do with not having the right size pilot hole, and needing to use an impact driver to screw the heads in.
I dont think I will be running out for a nail coiler for decking anytime soon either based on advice gained from first hand experience. But I will get a framer though.
Hi BrissyQuote:
Originally Posted by BrissyBrew
Yeah the thread on the screws was most likely caused by the wrong screws ......A lot of suppliers are getting stainless chipboard screws which have a reduced shank before the countersunk head which makes them prone to breaking....
If you buy a framer try and get one that takes the same nails as a paslode gas gun as it will make it easier to source nails...... If your gunna use it to nail your structure together check out the price of a box of mechanical galvenised nails first as they aren't cheap so if you don't like the cost better not to buy the gun Your best off with 82mm than 75mm but they are a fair bit dearer......Don't use anything else for framing into treated pine as the chemicals in the pine accelrate the corrosion of brights and electra gal nails
The trick to screwing is buy the right screws
cheers Utemad
www.dialadeck.com.au
Here is an interesting link about some withdrawal testing done for decking. http://www.timber.org.au/resources/R...l%20Trial1.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrissyBrew
Hi Brissybrew
It makes for an intersting read...pitty they didn't look at the 65 x 3.15 titadeck as they stuck to 2.5 and 2.8 shfts......I have long been telling suppliers that some titadecks are now so clogged with gal that the screws are virtually non existant... Same with ring shanks tto much gal and the rings are gone...... As predicteed the screws win and they didn't even use 10G only 8G ...... The right screw in my opinion would have a plain shank in the portion the board is in which further stregnthens the heads of the screws and allows the boards to move independant of the joist when you walk on boards.......
I printed in out and will read it carefully later.... Another thing they failed to recognised is when the boards are a few years old the plain shank bullet heads will have nowhere near the holding power they have in a 1 week old deck board so would show far worse than a nail with a head be it flat domed what ever......
Go with screws!!!!
cheers Utemad:2tsup:
www.dialadeck.com.au
Interesting though, that the 50mm gal bullet heads are only out performed by the screw and two of the the machine driven nails out of a total of 18 fasteners.
Mick
An interesting article it was, although I am the first to see that it in no way takes into account longer term durability. It was nailem and pullem the next day kind of testing.
So being screwed is not so bad. :o
I'm about to put about 30m2 of WA Karri decking down on to hardwood (f17 ash) joists and am trying to get my head round what to fix it with. Not sure of this thread has made it easier or not!
Effectiveness aside, I what would the difference in cost and time to drive between:
i) Standard bullet head gals
ii) Titadecks
iii) Screws (gal or SS?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben (TM)
Hi Ben
Cost you've listed them cheapest to dearest already...... Bullet head gal nails will be a little cheaper that titadecks but not enough to care and the stainless screws will cost around 150 - 200 bucks per thousand.... If your decking is 90mm you'll be looking at approx 1900 screws depending on deck shape and board lengths ..... Nails you might get away with 5kg at around 50 bucks and screws will cost 300 - 400 bucks......
Time wise assuming you are predrilling the boards no matter what you use.. the bullets will be quickeer than titadecks marginally cause you'll bend more of them than bullets but thats about all and the screws will take slightly longer as you have to countersink and screw them in ......
Assuming you buy the right counter sink and pilot in one and use an impact driver, if your not a chippy with a hammer you'd find the screws quicker and you would be able to work for longer periods without fatigue..
If you are a chippy with a hammer then nailing is quicker
Screw it with stainless its a job done once just check the joist hardness to see if you will need to pilot the joist cause this will add to the time but if its the case you'll most likely need to for the titadecks too so same o same
cheers utemad
www.dialadeck.com.au
Thanks Utemad, that's pretty much what I thought. I think I will end up using SS screws. Does anyone know of a SS screw supplier in Melbourne?
In terms of type - is the best fastener for my application a 10g 50mm with a square drive the best?
I only have a 14 volt Makita cordless drill - would this be OK for driving the screws or do I need a special driver with a clutch?
Also, where would I get a decent combination pilot / countersink bit? Given that I have 2000 odd holes to drill, I imagine that I'll need a few!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben (TM)
Hi Ben
the countersink we use is made by carbi-tool and cost about 45 bucks
model no...DCS 3.2 which obviously stands for drill-countersink-3.2mm
They are made in VIC so should be a piece of cake to get ........
The screws we get are Bremick or Macsim 10G type 17 countersunk sq drive stainless
Macsim no......17sscb1050 10 - 12 x 50mm 304 stainless
Bremick no... 10 - 12 x 50mm 304 stainless type 17 sq drive countersunk
Zenith....T17 countersunk ribbed sq drive decking screw
10 - 8 CDK9650 909175
Go for the macsim if you have a choice ....the zenith will be easy to get from bunning but has a coarser thread
As for your drill it will struggle a bit cause i use a 14.4 makita impact that has prob 5x the torque and we would us prob 5 batteries for a deck of 25m2.......
cheers utemad
Hi Ben
Macsim have an office in melbourne give them a call and ask for suppliers
heres a few of yellowpages but we are sydney based
Fastening Specialists - Commercial Industrial & Farming Advice & Range
3 Ebden St Moorabbin VIC 3189
ph: (03) 9555 1922
website
map & directions
<LI class=gold id=flag_2><LI class=gold>Boltmasters Pty Ltd
http://www.yellowpages.com.au/images/ico_f2.gif A Major Source Of Bolts, Nuts, Screws & Fasteners - Australia Wide
1/ 6 Barrie Rd Tullamarine VIC 3043
ph: (03) 9338 2066
<LI class=gold>Rageem Fastener Co Pty Ltd <LI class=gold>Specialised Engineered Fasteners.
(Rear) 407 Princes Hwy Rockdale NSW 2216
ph: (02) 9599 3132 Business services Greater Melbourne VIC but may not be located in the area
<LI class=gold>email
<LI class=gold>website
<LI class=gold>map & directions
<LI class=gold><LI class=gold>Coventry Fasteners
Australia's Fastener Specialists
72 William Angliss Drv Laverton VIC 3028
ph: (03) 9368 7900
<LI class=gold>Blackwoods
13 Cooper St Smithfield NSW 2164
ph: 13 7323 Business services Greater Melbourne VIC but may not be located in the area
<LI class=gold id=flag_3>Acument Australia Pty Ltd
http://www.yellowpages.com.au/images/ico_f3.gif Avdel & Cherry Brand Fasteners Performance & Reliability.
891 Wellington Rd, Rowville VIC 3178
ph: 1800 062 355
<LI class=silver id=flag_4>Ideal Fasteners
http://www.yellowpages.com.au/images/ico_f4.gif 10- 12 Ausco Pl Dandenong South VIC 3164
ph: (03) 9799 9744
<LI class=silver id=flag_5>ITW Fastex General Products
http://www.yellowpages.com.au/images/ico_f5_h.gif 2 - 4 Eskay Rd Oakleigh South VIC 3167
ph: (03) 9570 2566
Cheers Utemad
www.dialadeck.com.au
Great info on this thread. I'm replacing decking boards on a 60sq m and will have to replace most of (make that all) the joists. After reading all the info from utemad and others I will definitely screw it down. I was going to use hardwood joists but would it be better and easier to use treated pine to avoid screw breaks. How far below the surface should the screws be set ? I'm using 86x19 tallowwood on a very exposed site. Has anyone used the 90x70 laminated treated pine for joists? also whats the best gun to buy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bookwa
Hi Brookwa
I have beeen missing in action for a while.. Haven't checked forum form a month or more.... 90x70 lam pine for joists??? Why 140 x 45 pine will go further for less unless you have a height isssue... Even still you can cut them over the bearers 40mm if your trying to get hardwood size (4x2)
Don't use hardwood its so much easier to screx to t.pine and standard sawn 4x2 and 4x3 isn't real crash hot for radius winds and twists...Also sizes differ up to 10mm which means packing or checking all joists
Which Gun????? For what job ..... If you mean to fix the boards down then its a Duofast coil gun with adjustable depth head .... I own one but would not want to use it for this unless you are that chewed down on costing of the job... The boards will eventually split around the nails and nails will come up... Duofast (paslode) offers no support on their nails for any application so its all on you....
Depth set screws flush to 1mm below the surface any lower and they just trap water and dirt...
If you need further info PM but include email address
cheers Utemad
Thanks for that Utemad. Reason for asking about 90x70 is that there is a height problem and some of the bearer spacings are a bit overlong. Thought maybe 90x70 would be a compromise but will take on board your "cut in 40mm over bearers" . Sorry about wrong terminology re "gun" I meant impact driver. I've got a couple of 14v Makitas -clutched but not impact . Would they be up to it? Whats the best way of setting the depth on the drill/countersink.
Many thanks--appreciate your assistance
Bookwa
Firstly appologies for hijacking a thread....
I understand that SS screws are the optimal choice for fastening hardwood decking....
but other options....
gal?
zinc?
Are these viable options (obviously not as asthetically pleasing, but pleasing to a hip pocket, when working to a tight budget..)
I'm looking to use Type 17 10g 50mm for 90x19 merbau into T/P 90x45 joists.
Hot-dipped gal is viable. Pre-drill the merbau, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by clackerz
If anyone else is looking I found these on ebay
10g x 50mm STAINLESS STEEL DECKING SCREWS
TYPE 17 POINT WITH A COUNTERSUNK SELF EMBEDDING HEAD
SQUARE DRIVE
COMES WITH FREE
SQUARE DRIVE BIT WITH EVERY PURCHASE
$65 FOR 500<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>
http://stores.ebay.com.au/ChloeFasteners