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I don't want to step over the "no politics" line on the forum, but I was disturbed by what I saw on the news regarding the bugging of politicians private phones as part of investigations into corruption in WA. I'm glad that the nest of rats was uncovered and all of that, and they deserve all they get, but I felt uneasiness at their private conversations being taped and broadcast. If just feels a little KGB.
:?
What do others think?
I agree to a point. However, these people put themselves forward as representatives of the rest of us to ensure we get a fair go and can enjoy the freedoms of a vibrant democracy. Corruption is not part of our way of life nor should it be part of politics. If the only way to bring these ratbags to heel is bugging their phones then maybe it is in our interests. I certainly don't think the act of telephone bugging is acceptable where ordinary citizens are concerned. I'm an ex-pollie and if people really knew the what goes on behind the doors of democracy they'd be shocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossluck
I agree with Sheddie
There are plenty of back room deals, that if seen in the light of day would make us all cringe.
Lets (try and) keep the Bastards honest
This is what I'm getting at. Like pollies, we all say stuff in private that could be used against us, or that could at least be embarrassing, if made public. There seems to me to be an element of entrapment in bugging people's phones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shedhand
It's not something I feel all that strongly about, however, and I'm happy that they've been exposed. I'm really just expressing the uneasiness I felt when I first heard about it.
Perhaps the pollies should be told [if the taxpayer is paying for this phone] this conversation may be monitored blah blah blah.
Sheddie - ex pollie????
You come across in your posts as being too sensible for that role :; :U:U
It's alright mate - now that you've seen the light and are a forum member we won't hold it against you :no::no: :U:U
Let's face it, we are all fond of a political joke - it just seems a pity that so many of them get elected. :o
Hi RossluckQuote:
Originally Posted by Rossluck
Dont know much about the WA issue however I think it has the powers of a royal commission so bugging the phones is okay. They are only able to use the material if it is to do with the subject at hand. It is only entrapment if they give incentive for the offender to commit the act.
IE: If Mr X and Mr Y are talking on the phone and the warrant is in relation to corruption and X tells Y something criminal outside of the corruption angle then it is inadmissable and cannot be used in the court.
To get the warrant there needs to be reasonable grounds to suspect that by tapping the phone evidence in relation to a criminal offence that has occurred will be located.
it cant be a case of lets bug this line and see what happens.:D
That's why I'm an ex-pollie. To straight up and down. Not a liar or a mongrel or a cheat. I spent my allowances on hard up constituents. The others invest theirs in Gold Coast units where they can carry on their extra-marital dalliances......Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob38S
Rant off
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bugging would have been done after a warrant was issued.... iaw the Aust Telecommunications and the Privacy Acts.
Warrants are issued for reasons.
did the info come out as part of evidence tendered to a court proceeding, or was it leaked?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shedhand
Onya Sheddie :2tsup:
Sheddie I agree with all you say except the bit about ORDINARY Citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shedhand
Perhaps being an ex pollie you have picked up this phrase without realising it.
For politicians to refer to non politicians as ordinary citizens rubs me very much up the wrong way. It makes me angry. It causes me to think evil thoughts about people who think they are better than us ORDINARY people.
Do politicians think they are Extraordinary? If they do, they are right out of touch.
Politicians are our representatives, they come from the pool as the rest of us. They are not our leaders, just people who for all sorts of reasons have an urge to represent us.
I have heard our politicians use the term with reference to both politicians, police and defence personel.
They obviously think that because the majority of us are not in uniform or in Canberra, State Parliament or Local Government that we are second rate.
When you were a politician were you led to believe you were superior to the rest of us ORDINARY citizens?
Were you led to believe you had privelages that we ORDINARY little people didn't have? Apart from being able to tell lies in parliament with immunity.
Were you led to believe you were just a whole lot smarter than the rest of us?
Sheddie, this is a attack on your unfortunate use of the phrase ORDINARY people and not on you personally. You have at least become ordinary again.
I suppose will you say that uniformed people and politicians are less than ordinary!
Sorry mate but this phrase makes my blood boil.:((
Calm down mate. :wink: I also hate the phrase, especially when a little weasel like Howard utters it. When I was writing the post I thought to myself, "someone will ark up if I say 'ordinary people'. " So I thought, average? nope that'll insult the above average. Then I thought, 'the voters', but no, there's some git in Melbourne who changed his name to 'Informal' because he was so opposed to voting. In any case a lot of people just don't vote. So, I wasn't putting pollies on a pedestal, just differentiating between those that live in cloud cuckoo land and the rest of us mere mortals. Its the politicians who coined and use the term 'ordinary people', 'ordinary Australians' or 'ordinary voters'. Egged on of course by the fourth estate who rely on them so much for a living if not an actual job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wood Borer
The 35 years I spent in politics including the 1 year, 1month and 6 days I spent as a pollie were the biggest waste of a life you could imagine. I put my heart and soul into it (and a LOT of my own money), always wanted to be a pollie so I could help people who couldn't do for themselves. Only to discover its all a nest of vipers (with very few decent ones) out to serve enough time to retire with a fat pension and still be young enough to enjoy it. (I never got a pension btw). Its a pity really and even though I resigned my 32 year ALP membership last month I still love the party and the ideology. Not the people though.
Cheers
Sheddies totally right WB.
How should a pollie say everyone except politicians (& public servants?)when referring to the general civilian population.
No matter what word/s is used someone will be offended.
My fellow Australians? Perhaps?:D
Sheddy, I see your problem of finding a suitable phrase but why should there be any differentiation?
If a phrase needs to be chosen to differentiate why choose a phrase that suggests politicians are superior beings? When surveyed for opinions on honesty and trustworthiness people place politicians lower on the scale than car salesmen.
I appreciate your comments Shedhand and although you have given us an excellent view from the inside, I think most people see our political system as you described - far from ideal and not serving it's intended purpose.
It is a pity our political system is seen by budding politicians and serving politicians as a means of self promotion, helping out your mates or making yourself wealthier.
Back to the original topic about bugging.
It seems that politicians are very shady people, far shadier than people who are not involved in politics - why only this last week one had to be sacked because he associated with a criminal, two or three in Qld are being interviewed by police because or fraud or mismanagement of public funds, in Victoria they are drunks having accidents or blowing the bag up and lying about their identity. If these proportions applied to the Australian community we would need to discover another country to dump our crooks.
I suggest there is a higher proportion of crooks in paid political positions than in general society.
Crooks should come to the attention of the police. Police use bugs as an effective way to catch crooks. As there is a high proportion of crooks in politics, I would expect a higher proportion of bugs in politician's offices, homes and cars than in your average suburban street.
Surely nobody thinks politicians should be or are above the law.
In some ways I'm less than ordinary, and in some ways I'm extraordinary! Just like everyone else. :)Quote:
I suppose will you say that uniformed people and politicians are less than ordinary
I'm a uniformed person, and I'd love to be ordinary...
The trouble with pollies is that they are made up of people from the general community.
The same % of good people and the same % of scumbags as per the general population.
The same trouble is with the police, Defence Force members, doctors, teachers, religious figures, mechanics, engineers, waiters, farmers, pensioners.....
Bad people don't really matter in the vast majority of occupations... they make our blood boil when they do bad stuff, but we realise that 'people are people'.
When the same ratbags are paid by the public purse, or are in a position of authority, they are expected to 'do no wrong' and to lead a lifestyle that is 'more morally upright' than the average 'joe blow'. (insert phrase of personal choice to mean 'ordinary people'!:wink: )
Also, as the general public are the ones that fund the 'public purse', everybody feels free to criticise as its their $ that are being spent on the wages.
I agree that those that are paid by the public purse, or are in a position of authority, should be 'bloody good people', but I also know that cream is not the only thing that rises to the top.... and that there will be the same % of miscreants in any employment as there are in the overall population.
Example:
If WoodBorer gets a ticket for speeding, I reckon his wife will give him a bit of a hard time and that will be about it.... no-one else cares.
If the Victorian Police Minister gets a speeding ticket, it will be front page news on the Herald Sun.... everyones business.
(apologies to Wood Borer for using you as an example.... its only cause I think you are a good bloke!:U )
Have fun all, its raining over here so I'm feeling happy.
WB the only people who think they are above the law are politicians and bent coppers. But, they get it in the end.
On the other issue of categorisation of pollies v the rest of us. How about MP and voters. I intended no insult using the other term. :wink::D
Cheers
PS: Another tidbit to enrage you. Did you know that when pollies sit down with publicists to map out a campaign strategy. The first question the spin doctors ask when any idea is put forward is; "but will a 12 year old understand it". The reason? Because some expert somewhere decreed that in order for voters to understand what a pollie is cr@pping on about, the wording has to be pitched at the comprehension of 12 year old." True.
:doh:
Clinton,
No problems for using me as an example.
We all deviate from the letter of the law occasionally.
My problem is when a group (in this case politicians) pretend they are perfect then it should be highlighted. Not because they are in the public purse or they are politicians but because they pretended to be perfect, acted as is if they a cut above the rest of us.
Their defence is that they are only human and just ordinary people who err from time to time. They forgot to mention that when they called me ordinary.
My intense dislike of most politicians is after years of dealing with them. Having to lure them to events by arranging press photographers etc just so they release our promised money for the intended purpose. Of course you have to rope off areas and introduce them ...... and then applaude them after arranging the event at a time convenient for some slimey politician.
Before we get off the topic, Sheddies comment about the 12 year olds makes sense. Many people (including myself) judge others by our own standards.
I'm hearing and agreeing with you WB.
The trouble is that most successful character traits (for a certain value of 'success') for a politician (or business leader) in OUR current systems of politics and business are the worst character traits that people can have, coupled with an ability to appear innocent!
Gotta love the traps we set ourselves! :D
Bloody stupid humans..... if I was running the country.... people wouldn't have the vote, and they'd bloody well know to do things my way..... mumble, mumble... up against the wall.... mumble :roll:
Newspapers use the 12 year old test as well....
here's a question... try the guess the 'average age' that the Herald Sun, the Australian and the Weekend Financial Review are written for.
I can't remember the Roman bloke that wrote the "letters to my son" books... lived in the time of Julius Ceaser.... used to take it bush to read cause it was so dense.... he whinged about the same problems in politics that we don't like!