Kitchen cabinet help??

After recieving a few quotes to have new cupboards built for my kitchen, I was Rather distraught to find it was going to cost over $6,000.
So, being rather handy in building speaker cabinets and so forth I have decided to build the cabinets myself....
I have drawn up plans and am now stuck as to what material to use.
I have had trouble finding information on what sort of board to use.
I know it has to be waterproof and heatproof due to a wall oven being installed.
But what board do I use??

I have asked at bunnings and was told to use 12mm M.D.F. which I believe is neither waterproof nor heatproof..
Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated..

Howdy Notsohandyman,

Most kitchen cabinets (carcases) are built out of 16mm thick HMR (highly moisture resistant) white melamine particleboard. Note the words 'moisture resistant' not 'waterproof'. HMR will swell if immersed in water for a period of time.

The particleboard will have a green colour throughout (denoting it is indeed HMR).

I prefer particleboard over MDF as MDF is much heavier to lug around and the very fine dust it creates isn't the best for your health.

Dont use 12mm board as the hinges you will buy for the doors are designed to overlay 16mm thick board.

Take a look here at the price of carcases http://plyboard.com.au/admin/files/RetailPriceList.pdf
the quality is better than a few of the other kit makers that sell in Melbourne, the same company will also quote for doing cutting and edging from your plans.

I agree with renomart don't bother with the non hmr material the saving just aren't worth it. just a word of caution about wall ovens don't be tempted to use a "wall oven" underbench. An under bench can be used as a wall oven but not the other way round it to do with venting. Most new ovens are under bench anyway. just if you go for a second hand unit it is something to think about

My walloven only has about 50mm clearance at the back, with no vent and it's slowly destroying the cabinet internally.

How is this venting achieved on a wall oven, with some kind of kit or just cutting a hole in the cupboard/carcass.


HJ0

the cupboard above is made shallow so the hot air escapes up the space between the top cupboard and the back of the cupboard. hope that is a bit clearer than mud

I know this is not specific to the heat / moisture part of the problem. Here is a kitchen cabinet I made about 2 years ago.

http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/%7Estuar...tchen-Plan.gif
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/%7Estuar...d-Image-07.jpghttp://home.swiftdsl.com.au/%7Estuar...d-Image-05.jpg
Carcass is melamine (particle board based), and vinyl wrapped doors/drawers etc. All pocket holed together.

The entire unit cost $1600, with $1100 being the doors ($500) and benchtop ($600) which were made to order by Schiffer Manufacturing in Carrum Downs, whom I would recommend.

A full article on the construction is on my website, under "Members Showcase" - "Members Projects"

unless you have acess to a good quality panel saw and edgebander i would advise you to buy a flat packed kitchen and just install it yourself ,if you take into account the time and effort you will exert not to mention the inevitable mistakes that will happen it isin your pockets interest to go down this path,not trying to put you off just offering advice from obversations that i have gained over 25 years in my own business

You don't need a panel saw or an edge bander to build your own kitchen if that's what you want to do. You can use face frames to cover the edges if you like that style or there are a couple of other methods you can use. Get yourself a copy of one of the books that are around. Have a look on Amazon.

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Originally Posted by arms

unless you have acess to a good quality panel saw and edgebander i would advise you to buy a flat packed kitchen and just install it yourself ,if you take into account the time and effort you will exert not to mention the inevitable mistakes that will happen it isin your pockets interest to go down this path,not trying to put you off just offering advice from obversations that i have gained over 25 years in my own business

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You are kidding :eek: :mad: What utter crap.

Guys - everyone put down their tools right now, just in case you "make a mistake".

Building a kitchen is one of the easiest projects I have tried, not the hardest. What is a "flat pack" other than a few boards someone else has cut out for you and doubled the raw material cost (at least). You could make one easily, and accurately (well accurate enough for a kitchen cupboard) with a $99 GMC table saw. A pockethole jig makes it even easier, and spend the money saved on good quality vinyl-wrapped doors and bench tops.

I think Tom's livelihood depends upon people who share his opinion on the subject. That's fine and I'm sure plenty of people who would otherwise be incapable would achieve a good result with a flat pack for whatever reason. I believe there is a place in the market for everyone. However, this is a woodworking forum and so this place in particular is probably not the best place to be pushing a paint-by-numbers approach.

i am not pushing a paint by numbers approach ,i am giving advice gained through years of having to go and fix the weekend warriers problems because it seemed a easy thing to start but the enormity of the job was finally realised ! also tag of notsohandyman doesnt instill a lot of confidence to tackle this

If I can ask ..... what are you trying to achieve? If it is a period style kitchen, then your choices are different than if it is a contemporary style. Everyone knows I am a devotee of face-frame cabinetry but I also appreciate the clean lines of modern things..... usually not most Aussie kitchens though, which usually leave me cranky for various reasons. If folks could get some more info that'd be great. And as far as what Tom says: He is dead right.....but then so is everybody else

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

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i am not pushing a paint by numbers approach

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I'm sorry but yes you are. You are recommending that he purchase a flat pack kitchen rather than building his own cabinets from scratch. In my book, that equates to buying a canvas with shapes drawn on it and numbers telling you what colour to paint each one. Surely you can see the analogy? Would you go on an artists forum and suggest that? Well, if you were a retailer of paint-by-number kits, of course you would! You may be right about the notsohandyman tag, but then that could be just his sense of irony ;)

Regarding face frames vs modern lines, if you go for full overlay doors, no-one will be able to spot the difference with the doors closed.

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Originally Posted by silentC

....Would you go on an artists forum and suggest that?......

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Totally agree silentC, and it would be just as insulting.

My problem with flatpack is that it is never exactly right for the location (but then every house I have lived in has been over 75 years old, so maybe more recent houses have more "standard" sizes) and so every installation looks like it has been made to fit rather than fitted. Then there is the question of whether the style and finish is what you want.

The other side of the coin is that weekend warriors often start a job like this by removing the existing kitchen. I saw my Dad do this and the pickle he got into because Mum didn't have anywhere to cook and the new kitchen was "just coming together" in the shed. Domestic bliss, NOT! Get the new kitchen ready first.

My take on it is - have a go at it yourself.
Measure everything in your kitchen (especially check how far the walls are out of square) and note where powerpoints and water are (or need to move to).
If you can be bothered, prove your concept by making a model (accurate to sizes, but it doesn't need to be more than that).
Make it all up in units in your shed and store the completed parts.
If you are replacing appliances, order them and
WHEN EVERYTHING IS READY TAKE TIME OFF WORK AND INSTALL.

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maybe more recent houses have more "standard" sizes

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Don't believe it for a minute!

If you are replacing appliances, get them before you make any cabinets. That way you can make sure they fit.

Follow this good tutorial on getting a good edge on the melamine surface
http://www.woodshopdemos.com/jabil-1.htm

Follow the 32mm principle for cabinets
http://32mm.dalrun.com/index.html

You can get the melamine boards in the following sizes
2400*1200
2700*1200
2400*1800
3600*1800

And if you realy want to drill the hinge holes and shelving holes your self you can get the Hettich Blue Max 2/6 on special at the moment

i am sorry but i have reread my first post and i only recommended that would be well advised to purchase a flat packed kitchen noweher in the post did i suggest that he should buy one of my packs i only advised him this way because by his post i felt that he would be out of his depth with this project this forum is open to anyone to give advice and as such i gave mine ,if only to help him with the decision as to build the kitchen himself or go another way "advice is cheap but the right advice is priceless"

Read all the posts - no one has said that you were pushing your own product. They have said you are pushing your product's concept, saying it is too hard and expensive to do it yourself, which I have objected to, and silentC has equated to telling artists to use a paint-by-numbers rather than coming up with a painting themselves, which is a good analogy.

So where is the "good advice" by saying "don't attempt this unless you have a "good quality panel saw and edgebander"? That is not a prerequisite for producing a top-quality kitchen.

Hmm, I started sometime ago building some kitchen cabinets for a small workshop.

Although the concept was easy and the design was nothing fancy, the time and equipment was greater than I had estimated.

I had the attitude I would build a better quality cabinet than the flat packs.

I have no doubt my results will be better than the flat packs but the time has been great, especially the drawer slides, hinges and edgebanding that I would seriously question doing it this way again.

I could just imagine many getting in over their heads, building some cabinets.

It all comes back to your requirements.

Just give yourself plenty of time if building your own.

Cheers

Pulpo

i am sorry but if you want to produce a top quality kitchen then you must first have a top quality panel saw and edgebander to produce the desired result ,i dont have a problem with the weekend warrior trying to save some money by doing the job themselves but there comes a time that someone should say to them that they will drown if they go ahead ,if you want to make your own kitchens then go ahead and make them ,they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder ,thats great but i can say that i have never had a call from the weekend warrior to finish a kitchen project it has always been xena the warriors princess that has called and said enough is enough get me back to normal life

A pockethole jig makes it even easier, and spend the money saved on good quality vinyl-wrapped doors and bench tops

it seems to me that if you can use a gmc saw to produce a quality kitchen then expanding on the logic couldnt you then produce a vinyl wrapped door with a vacuum cleaner

I think people would be surprised to know how many small cabinet makers / Joiners actually cut board with a fax machine. Last i heard Handicut in Brisbane had the three flat beds working two shifts and a lot of that was for the trade. It worked great for me as I was only doing a kithchen every 6 weeks or so. Mind you your cutting list had to be spot on.

I've just finished two kitchens completely DIY, My neighbour is a cabinet maker with a good ($16K) panel saw.

I bought 550mm wide melamine 16mm shelving from laminex and docked it to length for the floor cupboards. In total about 800kg of melamine and MDF was cut up in about 6 hours.

Arms is right.... a panel saw with a scribing blade does produce cuts that are square and chip free... therefore better quality.

Pulpo... you are right too, it is all about time, with a GMC saw it probably would take twice as long.


This is a DIY forum and people like us hate relying on other people for something they can do better themselves. I guess it come down to how much spare time you have and how much you want the satisfaction of DIY.

Cheers
Pulse

that assumes that a vinyl wrap door is good

:D

as opposed to merely popular. But seriously, isn't the nature, cost and availability of machinery used to cut a piece of material straight vastly different than what is required to make a vinyl wrap door?

Folks have been managing to reduce material from large unwieldy sizes down to usable sizes for thousands of years.....they haven't been wrapping stuff in vacuum-sealed plastic for nearly as long, so no, I for one think that is not a logical conclusion...... Though in my other passion of model making, we use vacuum cleaners to vacu-form stuff all the time

:)


Nothing is easy that's done well - just easier than facing her indoors when DIYíng goes awry or (as in my case according to my wife) progress can only be measured in geological time.

:D:D:D:D:D

Of course, there are a million tricks of the trade to making a kitchen cabinet and you know them all I imagine. I liken this thread to a discussion I had with one of my clients, who maintained that if she had PhotoShop, she could've done the design job herself. I told her that was like expecting to be able to play golf because you'd read a book on the subject.....Certainly the right tools are important, but they are not the only elements necessary..... this was reinforced by the fact that once I had created her design, I told her that I had ignored just about everything she said she wanted - needless to say, when I met with her next, to get her approval on my design submission, she had grave reservations. After several minutes she stopped crying because the design went so far beyond her hopes and embodied what she stood for, that she was in disbelief. I used an old 386 PC with a old $50 version of PhotoShop. No offence intended at all, but by your reasoning the result should've been terrible. it wasn't, nor was it a fluke. I used what I had available to me .... and my mind, to produce the best work I could for her. BTW she is a children's performer and makes over $100 an hour! When i found that out, it was my turn to sit in awe.

Anyway, I now have to go make dinner before the wife gets home and starts throwing punches...

:D:D:D:D:D

Apologies for the disjointedness of my post - I put it down to old age and way too much sawdust

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Originally Posted by Pulse

This is a DIY forum and people like us hate relying on other people for something they can do better themselves. I guess it come down to how much spare time you have and how much you want the satisfaction of DIY.

Cheers
Pulse

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And how much wastage you are willing to create in order to learn and eventually get it right enough to be worthy - I must've learned HEAPS!

:D:D:D

But aint it grand to know that at least somewhere "hands" are still making things in this country!

Here is a quick guide to making quality kitchen carcases (using basic equipment)

1). Cut cabinet components with a sharp blade in your power saw (circular saw or Triton etc). The sharp blade will keep those inevitable 'chips' to a manageable size. Pay no attention to the chipped melamine yet. :eek: Cut your components 4mm oversize in width and length.

2). Get yourself a carbide tipped router bit. (these bits wont dull as easy as HSS). Fire up the Triton router table (or whatever router you have) and set the fence to take away 2mm in a single pass. Route each piece 4 times (turning clockwise after each pass). All chips will now be gone and your components will now be the proper size. The edges will be so nice it would be a damn shame to edgeband them. :cool: (next step!)

3). Two ways to go here. You can buy pre glued melamine edge tape and iron it on or (the better quality way) you can buy 0.4mm PVC unglued edge tape and use contact adhesive to bond the tape to the board. (an old airgun will dispense the adhesive just fine if you dont want to brush it on). Just make sure you apply the contact adhesive to both surfaces and allow to get 'tack dry' before applying together. Trim the excess tape with a sharp chisel or knife.

4) Now that you have all of your components nicely edged you can now start to screw them together. Some 40 or 45mm chipboard screws will do the trick. (and no need to use a pocket hole jig either)

5) Stand back and admire your handywork.

or face the fronts of the shelves with a nice strip of real timber and have those around you go oooooh aaaah, adoringly

:D

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Originally Posted by seriph1

or face the fronts of the shelves with a nice strip of real timber and have those around you go oooooh aaaah, adoringly

:D

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Aaaah :)

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i am sorry but if you want to produce a top quality kitchen then you must first have a top quality panel saw and edgebander to produce the desired result

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Crap. How do you reckon they built kitchen and other cabinets before there were panel saws and edge banders? Maybe YOU need these machines to do a good job but there are plenty of others around here who don't. Read the pages of this forum.

Flat pack kitchens are a compromise for people who are either not interested or not capable enough to do it themselves. Or for the ones YOU convice that it is too hard.

Hiya SilentC

gee - don't hold back there dude ...... Flat Pack is a valid concept for those of us who couldnt be bothered doing the "slog" work and just want to get to the finishing work...... mind you, I do have trouble reconciling the cost of a sheet of material with the price I was quoted for carcasses..... not by anyone here on the forum and not recently though. I struck gold when I got the cabinets for my previous kitchen..... at the time I collected antique radios and gramophones and a guy who wanted to buy one of my radios was a cabinet maker (sheets, not sticks) we struck a deal - I clearly explained what I wanted - ie a row of drawers along the top anf made to enable face framed doors. he promised the carcasses would be produced within a week. He really wanted that radio, so it was all good. By 2 PM THAT day, he called and said my cabinets were ready, when could he come and get his radio. By 4 he had his stuff and I had mine. Everyone was happy..... except he found that the cabinet of the radio he bought was twisted slightly - not sure how - and he on-sold it because of that ... cabinet-maker my AR5E.

If you go back over the posts Steve, you'll see that I have held back quite a lot ;) I pass no judgement on flat packs, I'm sure they are the perfect solution for some. It's the insistence that you can't do a decent job without "a top quality panel saw and edgebander" that I'm objecting to.

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Originally Posted by arms

i am sorry but if you want to produce a top quality kitchen then you must first have a top quality panel saw and edgebander to produce the desired result ,i dont have a problem with the weekend warrior trying to save some money by doing the job themselves but there comes a time that someone should say to them that they will drown if they go ahead ,if you want to make your own kitchens then go ahead and make them ,they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder ,thats great but i can say that i have never had a call from the weekend warrior to finish a kitchen project it has always been xena the warriors princess that has called and said enough is enough get me back to normal life

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I agree with Silent that its crap. To think that the above statement is true would only be a small percentage of "weekend warriors" but the majority of the forum members here id have no doubt could (and no doubt have) make a fantastic kitchen thats not a flat pack that is very attractive. The beauty in the eye statement isnt fair. It implies only you cabinetmakers can produce a good attractive kitchen, which is crap. Whats the extrodinary skill involved to cut a flat panell and stick it together. In the wonderfull world of wood those who cut up panells are no where near as talented as those who hand make furniture, and alot of those do it entirely by hand with minimal of machines. The kitchen below i made about 10 years back as a "weekend warrior" just using a Scheppack TKU portable saw and an iron for the edgebanding, and to my knowledge Xena hasnt called in for a refit;)

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Originally Posted by arms

i am sorry but if you want to produce a top quality kitchen then you must first have a top quality panel saw and edgebander to produce the desired result

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What rubbish https://www.ubeaut.biz/banghead.gif A Triton can do a perfectly good job, and that is only one of a hundred different solutions that people on the board use to cut panels. An iron will stick on edgebanding, and carbatec sell a good hand jig for shaving it down to a final neat finish, without resorting to $1000s of dollars of edgebanding machine (or whatever they are worth).

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Originally Posted by arms

A pockethole jig makes it even easier, and spend the money saved on good quality vinyl-wrapped doors and bench tops

it seems to me that if you can use a gmc saw to produce a quality kitchen then expanding on the logic couldnt you then produce a vinyl wrapped door with a vacuum cleaner

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1. the first paragraph is what I said - if you are going to quote me, have the decency of doing it properly.

2. It seems to me that you are so full of your own holier than thou stance, that you can't accept that there are plenty of people out there (and most of this forum I dare say) that COULD produce a quality kitchen with a GMC tablesaw, without forking out for a panelsaw (which would be nice if it was being used enough to justify its purchase).

3. I suggest you keep your logic in check - or I might start getting real off. At no stage have I suggested fabricating the average woodworker could produce vinyl wrapped doors - and I have (if you bothered reading either my first post, or the related article it refers to) suggested getting these sorts of details fabricated by a professional shop, with the money saved by not buying a flat-packed, Ikea like kitchen.

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Originally Posted by HJ0

Had this cabinet maker add a few under bench cupboards/cabinets etc to my kitchen . Just as a private joke to myself, I asked him how he puts the edgebanding on.

Oh mate i'll be honest with you , back at the factory we have a machine worth $50.000 that does all that nightmare kind of stuff.

Few months later I needed a few more doors edgebanded, so round the factory I went.

This kid was the only person there, yah mr i'll do it right now for yah. So out come the iron file and stanley knife, 20 minutes later job done.

Oh that kid was good alright, now i know why.

Does edgebanding machine worth 50 g's look kind of long and tricky looking? if so it wasn't anywhere to be seen lol

HJ0 Maybe he kept it at home just incase that kid learned how to use it better then he did.;)

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Heh! Wonder if he was paid $50000?

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Originally Posted by Notsohandyman

After recieving a few quotes to have new cupboards built for my kitchen, I was Rather distraught to find it was going to cost over $6,000.
So, being rather handy in building speaker cabinets and so forth I have decided to build the cabinets myself....
I have drawn up plans and am now stuck as to what material to use.
I have had trouble finding information on what sort of board to use.
I know it has to be waterproof and heatproof due to a wall oven being installed.
But what board do I use??

I have asked at bunnings and was told to use 12mm M.D.F. which I believe is neither waterproof nor heatproof..
Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated..

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I wonder :confused: if all you bickering answered any of Notsohandyman' question/s?
Although it has made for some wonderful "days of a lives" reading !

Notsohandyman can you post your plans so we can look and give some constructed information to you?

readnik

I wonder :confused: if all you bickering answered any of Notsohandyman' question/s?
Although it has made for some wonderful "days of a lives" reading !

Notsohandyman can you post your plans so we can look and give some constructed information to you?

yes please do i for one will be awaiting the constructive comments that arise for this one

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Originally Posted by arms

yes please do i for one will be awaiting the constructive comments that arise for this one

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This forum is for all to come and ask questions to learn and be guided through areas that are not so clear. Any mug with a jigsaw can make a flat pack kitchen if they are given the right material list. Notsohandyman just needs to know the best materials then he will be on his way to making a great kitchen. Good on him for having ago instead of being ripped of by over rated and over priced kitchen makers

"being ripped of by over rated and over priced kitchen makers"

it would seem that i have pinched a nerve here ,but if this is the case then why has none of you answered notsohandys question regarding the correct material ,i have only put forward a method that may fix his problem the rest of you have only put forward a case that using machinery of differing reliabilitys will produce the desired effect ,