don't really know what better or worse and what's most ideal for the average user...
could someone enlighten me...
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don't really know what better or worse and what's most ideal for the average user...
could someone enlighten me...
Boy, I bet this thread goes on and on and on.....:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by la Huerta
It depends on your prejudices. :p
I use all three, but then again I get paid for it. There's really no easy answer to this question, and you'll probably get votes for each.Quote:
Originally Posted by la Huerta
That being said, Macs have given me the least amount of frustration.
There's no doubt in my mind the Mac system is far more user friendly than Windows. They run all the standard applications (Office, Internet browsing, Email, Chat, etc, etc), and you can easily share files with your windows colleagues. Pretty much everything an 'average user' would want - ? You also get iTunes, iPhoto, etc etc.
Have used Mac's since 85 - almost bullet proof - never had a problem with viruses/trojans/worms etc.
Have had the misfortune to have to use Windows on occasions - would have to say that it equates with using Darkside tools - ie they will do the job but today there is something more efficient.
Bob
I have been a Mac user from my computer beginnng in the 70s. I have found them excellent and as frustrating as any operating system you will use. But I doubt there is an average user any more than an average woodworker. Arguments between the systems inlcude criteria like: cost, compatibility with other machines around the world, speed, protection against viruses etc. There are arguments for and against all aspects. Someone once said, "The differnce between a good and a bad piece of software is how much you become familiar with it". For my part, I find Mac good for these reasons: Because there are fewer mac users there are fewer virusses aimed at Macs. I like the design of the Mac machines and their screens. Mac often gets an innovation first and then is copied by others, such as dropdown windows. And I have become used to Macs and find them less angular than the alternatives. From what other operators tell me the mac seems to have less crashes than Microsoft products. And I will own the arrogance of this, but I believe that anything which is very popular cannot be much good. You could look up the records of Icon, which comes out in the Saturday SMHerald and find an article, last year, I think, on comparing Mac and Windows systems and comes out in favour of Macs, after some hard questioning and objective scoring. Not sure if that was what you were after.
could someone enlighten me...[/QUOTE]
My wife is the barometer of computer choice.
I run a PC wireless network at home. She has a Toshiba Notebook running WinXP Pro and all the windows products. I reckon I spend an average of 10 hours a week explaining how to do things on it to her.
At her work she has Mac running OS X (high end machine used for cartography). She has never had to ask directions from her boss and she is very competent on the machine. Prior to working there she had never used a Mac.
I have a new HP/Compaq nc8000 with all the big bells and whhistles and an IBM Net Vista (5 years old) as my server. I never have any trouble with the windows stuff.
Having said all that, if you want to take it out of the box plug it in and start working, go the Mac.
If you like tinkering and taking things apart and rebuilding, tweaking and stuff..go Windows PC.
Cheers
What was it?
Mac if you want to work.;)
Windows if you want to play games.:D
Linux if you want to be a computer geek.:eek:
for the real avarage user, go with windows, it is simple to use and heaps of expandability, and not too expensive at all.
and I'm very tired of hearing people constantly complain about stability of windows. Pair windows with hardware thats well made and compatible and Windows will be very stable. My XP has never crashed and I have had it since it was launched and its never been turned off (never gotten updates either but then its not accessable to the internet).
Macs, they are good, expensive but good, and if you get an Intel CPU based powerbook or what ever its called, they are fast!!
Find it funny tho all the security holes being found at the moment and the first thats just been found.
Yes Macs are very stable, but you should expect that when Mac locks the hardware down to what it wants and you have very limited upgradability!
Linux, well, its really not yet for the avarage user at all yet, as much as linux geeks was you to believe they are, they really really arnt yet ready for prime time!!!!
sounds like a toss up...perhaps sticking with what you know is best...on the other hand sometimes you got to take a risk and try something new...
been sniffing around at a new pc for a while, i have windows 98 now and may just go xp, mainly internet and email for work , but love watching movie trailers when i have the time and playing with pics editing, video editing would be nice too...
don't know what the macs are worth but windows based systems seem to be good value, it's suprising what you get for little money...
And there by the donkey hangs it's tail. 99.999% of security threats on a windows box are borne on the internet. Actually, same goes for any operating system, but Windows is just more likely to cop it...Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyPaw
very true woodbe, very true indeed, however running the computer properly (any computer) should be users top priority, a good firewall and a virus filter aren't that hard to use, don't use IE use firefox or opera.
think of your computer as a house, tidy it up, install a security system and give it a little tender loving care and it will give its best for you..
that sounds so corny
Corny..but very true.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyPaw
It does, and it's good advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyPaw
The problems occur when people treat their computers like appliances. They wipe the outside sometimes and hardly ever clean the insides. and not everyone sees value in a security system or tidy house...
Windows might not be the best thing to give someone like that :)
How many crumbs are at the bottom of your toaster? :D
Crumbs in my toaster? Absolutely not!!
hahaha but I have this wang fangled one that makes it real easy to keep clean!
Very true woodbe, however Mac still does need a cleaning from time to time just like windows, and I wouldn't want to run Mac without a firewall of some kind (not just anything thats built in either) however for simplicitys sake where the buyer doesn't need to really put a ton of thought into there computer for stability and security Mac would deffinatly win hands down in that regards.
Been with Apple machines since the IIe in 85.
Worked as an IT manager in a Advertising agency where the Artists had Mac's and the others had Winoze boxes, 98% of all the issues were with the latter for all sorts of reasons that needed time and effort to try and establish what the problem was.
OS X is extremely stable with its UNIX base (very similar to Linux but with a more pleasant User Interface, and as previously mentioned Microsoft applications run perfectly well and are easily moved between both platforms.
Consider buying a Mac Mini (around 1000 bucks) - which essentially is just the box, the size of 6 or seven Cd's stacked on top of each other with a slot loading cd/dvd drive, pre-loaded with the OS, you can add your own peripherals like monitor keyboard, mouse etc most brands are compatible even if it doesn't say it on the box...
I bought one for my parents and it comes loaded with a bunch of software for the things they really want a computer for - it has it's own web browser, mail client, digital photo software, movie making software, dvd making software etc.
Not to mention the change to Intel dual core processors to help with speed that was always seen as a "problem" with Mac
and besides - they are just so pretty to look at
My two bobs worth anyway
I've said it before:
I have a computer, not a hobby.
I have a Mac.
I have several Macs in fact, wirelessly networked since Apple brought out Airport 6 or 7 years ago. All computers need some maintenance, but not all computer's need "experts" to work out how to do it while you are paying them an hourly rate, some you can simply do yourself.
Cheers,
P (with apologies to the "experts" among us)
;)
BrisBen , those mac mini's sound good, has everything in a little package...
looks like theres a lean towards mac...
should be conducting a poll here...
Confessed Mac user here. Wouldn't go any other way, especially these days. Main thing is, I don't even have virus/spyware software and I don't need it. Mac's Safari browser blocks pop-up windows perfectly. Sure, they look more expensive, but when you consider the software that comes with it, compared to a PC (where you need to buy lots of stuff) it's not really expensive at all. The old analogy for Macs was,"it's like having a Rolls Royce, but you can only drive it on 10 percent of the roads." Well, times have changed, and now most programmes are available in both platforms.
I agree with the post that said PC for games and Macs for everything else. My computer NEVER crashes. Any PC users care to claim the same??? Never. Read it again: NEVER.
And now with the Intel chips, these things are lightening fast. Virtually everything is automatic on a Mac and integrated. No \ stuff. That symbol doesn't even exist in our world. No C drives, slave drives. Nothin'. No "Start" menu to go to for navigation. It's just plain easy to use and as reliable as Rolls Royces are meant to be.
That should stir up the PC hornets!
Cheers.
Mike
Yes I care to claim the same, none of my windows computers from Windows 98 to XP have ever, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NEVER EVER crashed, they have fozen but I have always gotten it back without having to reboot (a run away bad program) and I do intensive design, animation on a desktop that runs XP, never missed a beat, NONE of my computers have.Quote:
Originally Posted by cellist
I am no expert in Windows, far from it, I just have optimising software I use thats well recommended, I also remove programs I don't need and then use other software to remove dead stuff left behind.
I have never had a virus either, or mail/ad crap on my computer either, well I thought I did once.
Don't bother Puppy. This thread is just a Mac love in. Pathetic listening to all these Mac lovers bragging about what is standard for a modern PC running XP :cool: Yup, my PC, a Dell (oh horror), running XP, turned on at brekky everyday and used (or ignored) until bedtime, two years old now and never missed a beat, never had a crash. :rolleyes:
Richard :p
All due respect La Huerta, but I'm a bit over questions about which O/S (not just this forum). It really only gives people (me included) an opportunity to soapbox why their's is best and yours is worst.
Well, speaking as an end user and dabbler for many years, I find that computers are like vehicles, horses for courses. So my personal choices would be:-
1. For general work - PC with Intel chips.
2. For gaming - PC with overclocked AMD chips.
3. Graphics and CAD - Mac without question.
I think it's interesting that this thread seems to have flushed out one or two other users of "that" OS that for reasons that I don't understand seems to get under the skin of the 92% of computer users that don't use it.
I would like to know:
a) How much you spend anually on software/OS upgrades and maintenance.
b) How much time each week on the same.
For me:-
a)
My Macs (run in home and office, networked wirelessly):
I upgrade my OS about every two years ($300 for a five-licence pack), and that comes with most of the upgrades for the Apple suite of software.
So that's about $30.00 per computer per year.
Our accounting software costs $300 per year, but that's a "necessary business expense".
I have NEVER needed to have a technician fix any software induced problem.
My PC's (run in shops with point of sale systems, networked back to home/office):- used to cost a small fortune in weekly IT checks and fixes.
b)
Macs: pretty much set and forget. Auto backup when I remember to plug in the external hard drive.
PC's at work: Tech spends a couple of hours a fortnight fiddling... buggered if I know on what. There is a server, three PC's and two Macs which never need attention.
From my crude observations, we could save the cost of a new computer every four months by firing the tech and running an all Mac system.
This is not a crusade, I just want to know why it's not simple for PC guys, perhaps it is for the intelligent ones??
Cheers,
P:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
There are two answers to this question, depending on your leaning :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bitingmidge
1. It's not simple, because if it was, thousands of people (techs) would be out of jobs. There is an industry based around returning PC's back into working state. Flaky hardware and flaky software abound in a market dominated by both big business with industrial marketing muscle and cheap thirdworld import hardware. It's not all MS's fault, but really, they have been on their security spin for years now. "Trustworthy Computing", remember that?
2. It's not that simple because there are more PC's out there, and they are doing more stuff than your two Macs. It is true that rummaging around in the internals of a Mac, doing things that don't work out of the box because the average user doesn't need them, is just as daunting as it is on a PC. Some of the Mac's ease-of-use diminishes as you put it into more complex environments, and do uncommon things with it.
I'd still trust a Mac more to 'stay fixed' though, and relatively unpopular as it is, the Mac way actually suits more of the average users requirements for basic hassle-free computing (WP, Spreadsheet, email and web) than the PC way. Most PC users would vehemently disagree with this though, because of the elements of ego and religion that get attached to the decision to buy this or that computer. It is very hard to stand back and impartially consider both sides when you have one or other under your desk.
Leaving the controlled environments at work to one side, and thinking about the small army of users who use me as their free IT guy, I have to say that the ones with least problems are either savvy to their systems, and have a higher understanding of what's going on inside the box and why, or they have a Mac.
Of the Mac users, only a few have regular problems, and mostly because they are terminal tinkerers who just don't understand their computer, or they are just terminal. :) I'm reminded of the tech story where the tech asks the user to put the computer back into the box, and send it back, because 'you are too dumb to own a computer' :)
Homily over, I return you to your normal program...
Midge, I think that PC's, being the "popular" workhorse, are used by a lot of people who basically wouldn't know one end of a computer from the other, technically speaking and no offence to anyone intended. To them it is the equivalent of a washing machine, just a tool, and is subject to the blissfully ignorant abuse that a lot of machinery is, and this is where a lot of the problems arise, and I won't go to deeply into the "Problems that arise".:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by bitingmidge
The Mac user on the other hand is usually someone who has researched the right tool for the job (see previous post) and is usually reasonably knowlegable about computers. So being a different category of computer user, Mac users usually don't let their computers get into the mess that less knowledgable users do.
I'm no expert by any means, but I do have enough nouse to build and maintain my own computer, and keep it "clean" which is usually the best way to avoid problems in the first place. I could tell horror stories of some of the messes my rello's have got their computers into, simply from lack of knowledge, like the niece who ground her computer to a halt simply because she had never deleted a single web page in the whole time she had the computer, didn't know she had to, or how to. :eek:
You know the story, just keep putting petrol in it, nothing else, and then wonder why it stops. :D
As long as I can get at a web browers, I really don't care.
well put...
Try this FrreBSD unix based operating sytem.
Running Xwindows (KDE) it will need about a 1 gig processor, 256 meg of RAM and a 10- gig HDD. to be the equal of a Pentium 4 running XP.
The system is free to download from http://www.freebsd.org and it has great community support at [email protected] (you need to register).
Everything is absolutely free and rock solid. Up times are measured in years.
The only bad thing is hat you will need to apply a degree of intelligence as the learing curve is quite steep but the finished product is GREAT.
Read and follow the manual at http://www.freebsd.org and you can't really go wrong.
Macs cost more than PC's but you dont have to upgrade them as often. You can run current Mac OS on a relatively old Mac....Quote:
Originally Posted by la Huerta
I'm running current version of Mac OSX on a 5 year old G4 Powerbook. Ive got Virtual PC (Windows emulator) loaded on the machine in case I ever need to run Windows software but so far Ive never had to use it. Files created by Mac version of Office are fully compatible with windows machines.
During my PC days I was updating my laptops every 18 months on average...hardware either died on me or hardware wasnt fast enough to run latest versions of software. The powerbook cost me $7000 and has lasted me 5 years...you can do the sums yourself. Over long term the Mac has cost me alot less than a PC.
Mac support is very good.....they have this really novel concept...if you have problems with the computer you take it back to the shop you bought it from and THEY fix it. No dealing with some call centre in India and having to ship your machine to the other side of the country to get it fixed.
Cheers Martin
Termite,Quote:
Originally Posted by Termite
I think you'll generally find that Mac users know less about the inner workings of their computers than Windows users....mainly because they dont have to spend as much time as Windows users tweaking with same.
Cheers Martin
A few words of warning..Quote:
Originally Posted by BrisBen
The new dual core processor Macs are great but I wouldnt rush out and buy one straight away. Alot of the Mac native software hasnt been ported across to the new processor yet and wont run at optimum speed until it is. One or two native Mac software packages wont run on the new machine ful stop. If youre running any Windows software on your Mac then youll have problems as Virtual PC wont run on the new Macs. As far as I know there are no plans to update Virtual PC in the near future.
Im staying with my 5 year old G4 Powerbook untill the new Macs get bedded in.
Cheers Martin
yeh i know the inside out of my windows based laptop as the bloody thing (windows that it) has caused many hrs lost time and sware words i never new existed...but i'm at one with it now...
macs sound great, i did'nt even know they where different from the other half till i started this post...and this is a woodworking forum , go figure...
There's no real need to draw the borders between one platform or the other.
Yes, we are all different and have different ideas and interest but our common interest primarily is in the woodworking craft as this forum suggest.
Let's say you choose what you believe suits you.
I'm in the IT industry... for too long.
I use a PC everyday (from early days of windows, OS2, Windows 85, 98, NT, now XP), within its limitations, it works fine. I use it mostly as a glorified typewriter really. At work, when it comes to stability issues, it boils down to how BIG and dilligent is our PC/Windows Support crew.
My real craft in IT is on the Mainframe systems, predominantly IBM altho' the ICL mainframe was my old and favourite system. That's a different world altogether and the new mainframes today are something else! When it comes to stability of industrial strength. There's no comparison in this cintext.
At home, I have an old Powermac G4 @ the blinding speed of 400 MHZ. I have had this for more than 8 years now and it continues to serve me well. I only use this for my own productivity work and I don't play games.
In fact, that's what I'm using now to post this.
Horses for course and to each their own, as long as you can do what you want with your machine, isn't that the point?
AHH I've got it.
If your dumb get macs, if your smart get windows!!!!
I knew, that in time, I would eventually get it all!!!
Just joshin!
Macs and PC's are the same, pure and simple, they will both do everything you want, (well, almost) they are both good ONLY when you know what your doing.
One problem with windows is it has tried to be a system for the masses and so has been dumbed down because the unintelligent masses don't want complicated (people some difficulty setting there VCR clocks for crying out loud) however when you really want too, and you put just a little thought into it Windows XP can be significantly more powerful then MAC and Linux, purely because of its pure abbility to do anything and EVERYTHING!
On another note, the stability problems lots of people experiance are usually not something relating to Windows its self, but poorly writen software, badly writen drivers for poor hardware, incompatible hardware (have just rushed something to market) an unkowing user thinking they can just keep using it and never doing anything to keep it clean and tidy.
Now if I can do this and keep it stable then even a 90 year old incontent fool can do it!
But ya know what, go with Linux, because it will force you too learn everything :-D
Oh I realise I am coming across very abrupt, I don't mean it, just tired of this hole Mac/Windows/Linux they are all good, just choose one
I said I wouldn't respond to this (there is just too much dogma involved in this topic), but as usual I have changed my mind.
I too have 20+ years as a software engineer and general computer boffin. I have in that time worked as a senior support engineer at IBM and (for my sins in a former life, no doubt) Microsoft. So there are my basic "prejudices" laid out for everyone to see.
In my time at Microsoft, one of my tasks was to debug the static dumps that a blue screen creates when it occurs. For those who don't what that is, a static dump is a file that contains all the contents of memory when the blue screen occurred. From that a (good) software engineer is able to determine the cause of the problem. I would also discuss my own cases with other senior engineers as well as get an insight on what they were working on.
I cannot recall one single case where the problem was not related to either an imminent or actual hardware failure or a third party device driver passing bad parameters to the operating system (some of the earlier Intel network card drivers were appalling). When you consider the infinite possible variations of installed hardware, it is a demonstration of the solidity of the underlying design that it doesn't happen more frequently.
I know the Apple users will sneer at that anyway but it is a simple fact. Apple has the great luxury of a well thought out and limited (in the sense that there are few variations) set of hardware operating environments.
Anyway, when buying any major widget, the first question is what am I trying to accomplish? The second is how much complexity am I able to accept? The third is how much am I willing to spend?
I wont buy a Macintosh because it doesn't suit my needs. The software I want to use doesn't run on the Macintosh (SQL Server and Visual Studio .Net).
Availability of software is the major reason why the non windows o/s just cannot get a big slice of the ms market.Quote:
Originally Posted by markharrison
There is just so much windows based software available who really wants to bother with the other systems even if they are somewhat better than windows
Let me just repeat what I'd wanted to say...
As long as you're getting the most from your machine, who gives and cares?
Any hardline view either camp wants to take at this is just a waste of space on this forum's server.
Let's hop over to some woodwork topics now.
oops....this thread was a bad idea, luckily where all not in a room together...
ok, i'm ending this now before it gets out of hand...thanks for everyones input and addvice it is much appriecated, and now i know a little more about the O/S out there to help in my decision..
la H
crickey!!