Reckon the wheat cockies must be mad as hell about the (alleged) crims who have been running the A.W.B.
A wheat cocky especially wouldn't feel good if he had a kid in the forces in Iraq at the moment.
Wonder if we'll see a goverment fall.
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Reckon the wheat cockies must be mad as hell about the (alleged) crims who have been running the A.W.B.
A wheat cocky especially wouldn't feel good if he had a kid in the forces in Iraq at the moment.
Wonder if we'll see a goverment fall.
yep one hell of a mess is this.
there will be some very upset farmers thats for sure.
Was watching an interview friday morning with johnny howard. He did every but answer the very straight forward questions in realtion to this BS. I do not believe for a second that there wasn't someone in the government who knew about this. I feel sorry for the farmers in the middle of this and also those who rely on the farmers for work. (For example I have a mate that does contract harvesting.)
I don't if this will cost the government its place, I don't like John Howard but I sure as hell don't like the alternative! :eek:
Bob
Paying 'commissions' is par for the course doing business in the non Western world, and to a lesser extent in the western world. All trading partners with Iraq paid these 'commissions' and continue to do so.
Yes, its immoral but consider the consequences to our wheat farmers, country towns and domestic economy if we refused to pay whilst the Seppos, Canadians and everyone else did.
Yes, its was wrong but we don't live in a perfect world.
The contracts were worth many hundreds of millions of $$. The war is all about trade, oil and G Bush's need to do what his father failed to do. Morality is a luxury not seen in geopollitics nor commerce.
Our guys were just not so sophisticated as their competitors, and our domestic political foes are not concerned with morailty just staying in, or gaining, power.
Does anyone think Fat Kim would have done anything either? Does our National prosperity outwiegh giving a few bucks to Saddam's low lifes? If we upstandingly refused to pay, do you think someone else would not? Out farmers are basically unsubsidised, the Seppos live on huge Gov handouts. Halliburton rules Iraq, VP Cheney is an ex President of the coy! No- surely not. Halliburton hands out all the sub contracts now, and will be vigorous supporting Cardinal Rudd and Fat Kim - not cause it offends their honest business practice, but so their Seppo brothers will pick up future wheat deals.
Poor and honest? Sounds good but not very realistic, I think.
Got to agree with Bodgy.
Anyone who has done business with the middle east or asian areas knows that wheels need to be greased or nothing happens.
The game at the moment is the shifting of supply from Au to US.
Nothing more.
Agree with Bodgy and David. I used to trade commodities with Middle Eastern, Asian and South American countries. It's all about the money - ethics, morality and honesty have no place.
This is not the first nor will it be the last. Happens all day every day.
No point in getting rid of Johnnies mob over this (plenty other reason maybe). No one will do it any differently, no one is willing to take the loss.
Don't have to like it but it is what it is. Good to see it in the media once in while. Let the average Jow learn what a dirty place it is.
Cheers,
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidG
I had not thought of it in this light, but it does make sense.
i agree with bodgy david and glenn. anyway election time is still along way of and by then the voting public wont have the same feeling about this as now. even now their dosnt seem to be that much public outrage except for the usual anti american/howard haters. token heads will roll, but its a storm in a wheet silo, it will pass;)
I have been on ships trading in the middle east asia and indonesia was the worst by far for bribes
Persian gulf comes a close second , waited several hours at kuwait airport because no stamp, the ships agent arrived money passed hands stamp appeared.
This system has been in place for thousands of years , BUT It doesn't make it right , the yanks are now wanting Australia out of the new contract negotians for the next wheet sales to Iraq so they can fill the gap themselves
The thing that has angered me the most in all this is some yank senator coming to our country and demanding a please explain fron Australian Government Representatives. Demanding interviewes with our officials, where did our government get with protests against lamb subsidies in the US, imagine an Australian Senator going to the states and Demanding a meeting with the us congressmen who passed the bill to explain why they voted as they did.
Since I started to write this I see several others have posted sorry if I've doubled up on what anyone else has said.
In SE Asia there is no bribery, however there is a thing called SOP which stands for Standard Operating Procedure................usually about 10% :rolleyes:
Exactly. In many (most?) places it's not bribery - it's business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Termite
In this case, I think Bodgy hit the nail fair and square. The US want the business for their own domestic wheat farmers. I don't know what the subsidies are like these days but if they are as high as they were a few years back and with the US free trade bloc is growing, the farmers need to export some wheat. US domestic productions subsidies would be bleeding Bush's administration (but not the family in Texas) dry.
The international trade game is really interesting. Scary, but interesting. I would love to know what is really happening. Doubt we ever will.
Cheers.
Don't forget that grain is sold on the futures market, just to make it all a bit more complicated.
Stuff delivered today has been sold a decade ago, with often many changes of hands in the interim.
Work that out!! :confused: :confused: :confused:
P
I work with the farmers beleive me "NOT HAPPY JAN" is a bloody under-statement esp. the crap prices they get paid because AWB have a monopoly on the whole market. Now the dickheads that supposedly run the co. want a 33% increase in their pay. SHEIT heads will roll..... it may take time but we aint heard nothing yet. Tonto
Crossing the palm is a way of life in middle eastern society. Western culture just adapts. My big beef with JWH and his cronies in Canberra is that he expects us to believe he knew nothing. What a load of hogwash. I worked in the 'Big Pile' in Canberra for 6 years and I know for fact that the leaders know everything that is going on.
Every morning the depatmental advisers arrive to brief the PM or other high ranking Minister and when they finish the 'official' briefing the leave without the Department Secretary who then provides the 'unofficial' briefing. Its during these 'unofficial' briefings that the black stuff is discussed. :eek: :rolleyes:Its never minuted or recorded. They know and they lie when they say they didn't know.
A leader who doesn't know what is happening around him or her doesn't deserve to lead. Off the soapbox...:(
PS: you know they're in deep doodoo when they trot Lexi Downer out to defend the indefensible.:rolleyes:
Did the transaction go like this?:
"Hey mate, How much is a bag of wheat?"
"$100"
"O.K. How about if I give you $110 and you give me a bag of wheat and $10 back? How would that be?
" O.K. Sure. If you like"
So who has paid the extra $10?
I'll second that.Quote:
The game at the moment is the shifting of supply from Au to US.
Nothing more.
The West gets a bee in their bonnet about bribes. No-one else can understand what the fuss is all about. In Indonesia the salary for a SGT in their Armed Forces (Paratroop Infantry) equals enough $ for 1 meal a day and accomodation in a boarding house room with about 20 others on the floor.
Does anyone think that if they were in the same situation that they wouldn't supplement their wages? Its the same across the board in all Govt positions, cops, public servants, nurses...
Bribery and protection rackets - or User pays system?
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I can't understand why the yanks are getting so upset about this unless they are trying to force us out of the market.
If you trade with African or Asian countries you pay a kickback to do business, but in the good old USA :eek: you have compulsory tipping to buy any service. Which to me is a kickback, similar as what the AWB did.:confused:
Peter.
The endemic bribery across Asia, is not really so inherently evil.
Firstly, the guy who gets the whack does not just put it under his bed. A large portion of the initial sum is divided amongst his senior people, they then, in turn, divide it amongst their managers, and so on, all down the line.
In countries with little or no social security, breadline wages and no IR legislation, I think this is understandable.
Its really just another system. Usually, but not always, the best $$ and quality tender wins the business and you just factor the commissions into your bid. It is vital to build trust and relationships when doing business in our region, and surprisingly whilst we may find the 'commission' system dishonest, I've never been ripped off. These comments only refer to SE Asia. I've heard horror stories about China and the Middle East. Strange really cause most of the business in our region is done by ethnic Chinese.
From what I have heard the Wheat Farmers can't see what the fuss is. That is logical too after all they would have a pretty fair idea about how the world wheat market operates.
The local fuss just seems to be the get Johnny group trying to have a lash at the Government. Remember all the screaming over various things in the past, like refugee detention. The Howard Government reading the papers was in a terminal mess then went on to win another election.
American interests in this are as others have said about increasing their own piece of the pie. US politicians may not want to change anything but it will get them a headline and favour with their constituents.
Studley
I haven't been following it to much as newspapers and telly have taken a back seat to machines and chisels in the last six months, but someone can enlighten me. If the so called bribes weren't their and we didn't sell the wheat, then what would have happened to it? Would it just sit in a pile and rot? And wouldnt Iraq then go to someone like Canada and deal with them instead of us. So instead of head hunting shouldnt we be thanking the person responsible for securing the deal so our farmers can sell their produce.
If i offer a table to someone for two grand and they reply with an offer of 1500 cash so i can avoid paying tax to the government and i accept, im guilty of also taking a bribe. And this happens every day all over Australia in all forms of business large and small.
It sounds like what Studley has said and its the "get Johnny group trying to have a lash at the Government." As i said someone will enlighten me on this:)
I think the bottom line is US farmers getting in on the act... just as well we're part of the FTA, so I'm sure that'll help Aussie wheat farmers (like my brother) out!:rolleyes:
Not happy John
Forget the word "Bribery". It is a fee for doing business in that part of the world.
The problem is the US farmers who want to take AU out of the market so they can get the contracts.
The AU gov, press and people are all about committing suicide over this.
It is normal business practice in that part of the world and the US does it too.
Let it drop with praise to the wheat board for a good job done.
That is what my mind is telling me, and im puzzled why the government here is getting its head kicked over this. they need it kicked at times but not for thisQuote:
Originally Posted by DavidG
Press and politics.Quote:
why the government here is getting its head kicked over this.
I thought the fuss was about a government saying they knew nothing about an incident when there are people providing evidence they did know.
The details of the incident is not important and whether it is legal/illegal or moral etc does not matter.
Did the government know or not?
I doubt if we will ever get an answer, unless there is a scapegoat strike.