What gets up my goat!

G'day,

This is a bit of a rant to let off some steam.

A client who has come in from the cold after about a year called me in for a briefing on some jobs. I supplied the quote and we agreed I'd proceed with conceptual layouts.

This of course takes time. In all my quotes I allow for one set of client alterations, after that they pay based on an hourly fee, of which I charge at quarter hour blocks. Fair enough I think and is what all my clients have been educated to and some clients insist on this system without me raising the issue. (some clients will even insist I charge for parking)

The client in question expect unlimited alterations at my quoted price. 90% of my clients are government and having said that, some will have multiple alterations on a particular job, some have none. I explained that maybe I could give some flexibility here, knowing too well that this client have too many people putting their 2 cents in and all want their own way.

Now after spending 2 days working on concepts they want to get another quote in. I only expect a client to pay fair value for something, not for me to be a charity when umpteen alterations which is equivelant to the question of how long is a piece of string.

Now it may be be that I loose the jobs, worse though is I have other work to do of more value and a tender to write - all of which could have been better spent on than a client who wants too much for no more than 2 cents. (I charge only for time taken, nothing more and this is how I add value for clients and transperancy)

Now I'm two days down which I have to make up for.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

My dear old Dad was a retailer and self emplyed all his life. He used to say to me "No business is better than bad business". I use that a lot .

G'day Gumby,

True words. Sometimes there is other work on that pays better or a client might be more grief than they're worth. It's all money that pays the bills though, but there comes a point where you have to make a hard call.

Still hope yet.

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Originally Posted by Waldo

G'day,

This is a bit of a rant to let off some steam.

A client who has come in from the cold after about a year called me in for a briefing on some jobs. I supplied the quote and we agreed I'd proceed with conceptual layouts.

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sounds like a contract to me, a verbal contract is still bound by law under the trade practices act.

Cheers Ian :)

Bloody Freemasons keep getting my goat :mad:

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Originally Posted by DaveInOz

Bloody Freemasons keep getting my goat :mad:

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You should charge them for the ride then :rolleyes:
I though they preferred sheep like the Kiwis do. :D

(Shields Up)

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Originally Posted by Gumby

You should charge them for the ride then :rolleyes:
I though they preferred sheep like the Kiwis do. :D

(Shields Up)

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problem is the bastards only take the pretty ones

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Originally Posted by DaveInOz

problem is the bastards only take the pretty ones

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Nah. Pretty ones don't give out. All virgins. Ugly ones rock!

Waldo - i agree that you have a contract there; offer, acceptance, consideration. If you're wiling to burn bridges, have your lawyer send him a letter ($150?) informing him that you intend to sue him personally for the 2 days lost time, potential lost business etc. He may suddenly be your friend, and encourage the firm concerned that they don't really need another qoute after all.

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Originally Posted by TassieKiwi

Nah. Pretty ones don't give out. All virgins. Ugly ones rock!

.

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A few beers fixes the ugly problem too ;)

I try follow the motto about the customer being right.... but some customers are so painfull they really deserve to do business with someone else instead of me.
Painful customers generally don't have profitable jobs.

G'day Tassiekiwi,

That's one avenue, but as all my clients have come by word of mouth I don't want to go down that road. They may come back tomorrow or next month - if not then so be it.

G'day Echidna,

Yep to that one. Could have a beer or two to wash away the anger at client, but it's too cold that it might do damage to certain members of my body.

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Originally Posted by Waldo

The client in question expect unlimited alterations at my quoted price.

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Did you send him an offer that states the work you will do and that anything else will be charged on a time basis?
Just send him an invoice if thats the case.
Of course a verbal agreement is a contract.
(O didn't make the bottom of your post before replying
A very similar gripe of mine is clients changing layouts after I've been working on the design for a while then expecting the job to be finished and to council for approval when we'd originally stated,.. before changes.:mad:
The last 2 big jobs I've done have been liike this and I dont get paid enough for the stress they cause.
Luckily I get to work on roads mostly which dont often change.

Hey Waldo,

I 've got a mate who does one off furniture for people & businesses. In the beginning I thought he was incredibly rude to his customers until I did some work for him & had to deal with the customers.

He tells them up front he will design for them to their specifications & will SHOW them the output. They get no copies of drawings except hand drawn. Any changes will be charged for. They MUST pay 40% up front if the job is accepted based on the drawings & there will be NO changes. Any changes will be charged at full work rate. Full payment including cheque clearence time is made prior to final installation/delivery. But the client MUST come to the workshop & inspect the comission before installation/delivery.
This is all told to them at the first client meeting VERBALLY as well as in written form.
This guy has been bitten by a couple of the legal fraternity refusing to pay after installation & taking his designs to others to obtain cheaper quotes.

He has more work than he can poke a stick at because of word of mouth & the up front limitations only affect those looking to rip him off. I'd say more than 40% of his work is repeat business because he REALLY looks after his customers with after sale service.

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Originally Posted by Gingermick

Of course a verbal agreement is a contract.

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Agreed, but try proving the terms of the contract in the absence of independant witnesses. :eek:


Peter.

G'day Majorpanic,

The way I operate is:

• client briefing;
• quote;
• by enalrge as it's mostly gov' work I then get a verbal approval or it'll be a purchase order;
• present concepts (which are only started and left with them once an approval has been given
• client makes changes to layout (rare);
• present new layout or get 1st set of alterations, client is charged for alterations thereafter
• as 90% of my work is gov' I know I'll get paid within 7 to 30 days.

There are other bits but that's the guts of it.

Only had one client engage me who I realised were out to milk me so I cut and ran and chose to make a small lose than a larger one. All work is repeat business. Still I love what I do and I get paid for it.

As you pointed to the single most important thing is to give value by way of client service then they'll come back. Good clients drop a word in for you which means new clients and those new ones themselves by association with the first client have always been good clients in turn, the wheel keeps on turning.

And my boss won't sack me. :D

I reckon you look at the broader picture, work is largely referal for most small businesses. Who do you want to attract? the PIA client tends to have PIA mates so do a job to their satisfaction means more of the same, plus they tend to be very slow payers and not all pay.

On the other hand the client who is patient, organised and prepared to wait often has friends the same. They might not complain but if you want their referals you do need to get work out on time and within their expectations.

My experience is the more they expect, the more inconsiderate of others, especially those in before that you may have on your books etc then the harder to deal with, the more difficult to pay, and the hardest to please.

I'm inclined to tell them that they are being difficult, that what you have spelled out at the start is the deal and if they are not happy to go make life difficult for someone else. The outcome is satisfactory if they leave or stay.

Just my two bobs worth
JohnC

Forget about the 2 days work, call that OJT (on the job training), you are the boss, you are in business, it is business training that you got 'on the job'.

Learn from it.

1. Do you want the customer?
2. Do you need his work?
3. Will you go broke if you don't get paid for the 2 days you have lost?


What I know already.

1. You can get in trouble if you ring him up & tell him that you don't want his work. :(
2. There's nothing in the Trade Practices Act that says anything about taking his order & then ignoring him til he's got moss growing on him. :D


If I have to spell it out....
I've had customers like this too, go & do something more productive.

To add to Gumby's Dad's quote, here's a few more....

'fill your orders before you do your qoutes'
'don't let the bastards get you down'
'you are running a business, not a charity'
'you only get what you pay for'
'divide your customers into 4 classes, A,B,C,D, get rid of the D class customers & do you A & B class customer's work before the C class ones.'
'if your monthly outstandings exceeds your monthly takings, shut the door til they don't.'
'work smarter, not harder'

G'day Cliff,

All valid points and I agree with them all.

"fill your orders before you do your qoutes" before one job goes out completed it always good to have a quote going out with the prospect of work to replace the one going out.

Strueth, I am surprised my topic has brought so many posts.

All said and done, tomorrow's another day and another dollar.

Like my avatar says' Work to play" :D

When I am dealing with commercial customers, mainly builders, they don't want a quote only an hourly rate. They understand the terms and conditions well.

With private customers I always give a written quote or estimate even if the job is being charged hourly. Just about every job I do I improve my Standard Terms & Conditions. Once bitten twice....

Its nice to really help people out but you have to have an in-built "tosser detector". Sometimes (as already put) some jobs are just not worth doing.

Just send the guys a fair bill for your time and see what happens.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Waldo

..."fill your orders before you do your quotes" before one job goes out completed it always good to have a quote going out with the prospect of work to replace the one going out.....

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Pinch of salt, it's a quote, it's not mine but it makes sense to me.
If you have plenty of work, do it, don't pizs about looking for more.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Waldo

...Strueth, I am surprised my topic has brought so many posts...

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It's a real problem, you ain't Robinson Crusoe.:D

G'day Cliff,

"If you have plenty of work, do it, don't pizs about looking for more.
"

It comes to me I've never had to look for it. All my clients say that it's the speed I deal with their particular jobs/questions etc. that is one way I add value above others.

I'm OK, just annoyed at the time considering what's involved.

Good, call him D class & ignore him, you'll live longer. :D

As a sideline I'm getting into work, where you have to charge by the hour, you can only estimate, pretty close though, how long it will take.

My fee structure is as follows.

Base rate
+ premium if likely to be a slow payer
+ premium if a pain in the arrrrrs
+ premium if it takes me away from normal work but they really want me.

Works so far

G'day Outback,

You've got it there. I do a similar thing on occasion.

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Originally Posted by Gumby

A few beers fixes the ugly problem too ;)

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In NZ the kiwi would drink the beer. In Australia its the sheep that needs the beer.

if they look like they might be more trouble than they are worth, then price it accordingly so that if you get teh job it will be worth it. sometimes one slips past me but usually i spot them when i'm doing the quote. i once got a job i tripled the quote on cos i could see it was going to be a pain. they were a pain but i sure made money that day. seems all the others who quoted on it didnt want it even more than me

Every time i have ever won a GOVT job..........i have always wondered what i did wrong :)