Tax

Inspired by Iain's joke

Is anybody else happy about the new tax cuts?
I am recieving a significant reduction in the amount of tax I will pay over the next few years but am sick of hearing about the people on lower incomes whinging about how good I have it.
Yes I am saving a whole lot more money than others but that is only because I pay a whole lot more than them in the first place.
Not only that, I don't use many of the services I pay for with my taxes.

I think the government should tax everybody at a flat rate of 10%, no rebates, no concessions, no deductions, no exceptions.
If this were the case the high earners would not need to "hide" money, as is the case now, to circumvent an unfair Robin Hood style tax system (by Robin Hood I mean STEALING from the rich to GIVE to the poor).
There would be a whole lot more tax paid and it would be a fair system, you earn $10, you pay $1 tax, simple.
Another benefit would be that if the are no rebates, deductions etc, we could do away with a large chunk of the ATO which would save the country even more money!!

Just another little rant, on the topic of student unions.
I heard a student say the other day that if student unions were no longer compulsory, many students would use facilities and services paid for voluntarily by other students.
Is this not very similar to the way students at the moment use facilities and services paid for unwillingly by other students who do not use them.
These whinging students are probably the same people who end up on low incomes and then complain about the rich not being taxed enough!

BTW, my partner was at Uni for 7 years and never once used a service provided by the student union, but did pay 7 years of union fees.

I think it is about time people realised that if you want something, you have to pay for it!

Thanks for letting me vent my anger,

Jack

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Originally Posted by Jack E

Is anybody else happy about the new tax cuts?

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Yes, but then I'm a wicked high income earning electrician.https://www.ubeaut.biz/ohbrother.gif

Jack, perhaps you misread Iain's post. It's the poor people who are supposed to do the whinging.

I thought that we weren't supposed to talk politics. :confused:

You'll give conniptions :p

Craig (who's not lining up to give his tax cut back :) )

Jack, Jack, Jack, you just don't get it, do you?

The idea of the current tax system is perfectly simple. The sliding scale allows the Government to make the appearance of being harder on the high income earners (stealing from the rich). Meanwhile, the system of deductions, rebates and other loopholes allows the rich to escape paying the extra tax. If you want to change the system so that Kerry actually has to pay more tax (I bet he doesn't pay anything like 10%), you will just force him to shut up shop here and move somewhere with a nicer climate. Then where would we be?

And yes, if you are getting a significant tax cut, then you have it good. Me too but at least I acknowledge it ;)

We wont go into the whole "I don't use the services" argument. Everybody knows that the people who need it the most contribute the least, that's the nature of a social welfare system.

Course I'm happy!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


P (but I agree with you Jack!) ;)

I like the idea of a 10% flat rate of tax because, not only will I never have to pay tax again, but the government will have to give me money.
Not that I pay tax anyway.

10% flate rate, never going to happen here Comrade :rolleyes:
As for student unions, I endured those for years and the only thing I saw come out of those was the funded pot smoking sessions at weekends.
I thought uni was for the more intellectual elite, who should be able to look after themselves without the need for union intervention, although I found it varied from uni to uni.
I never went to LaTrobe, only Melbourne where everyone was well behaved and some post grad work at MOnash where we kept to ourselves anyway.
Never really figured out what a student union was.

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Originally Posted by Jack E

Inspired by Iain's joke

I think the government should tax everybody at a flat rate of 10%, no rebates, no concessions, no deductions, no exceptions.
Jack

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They did that ages ago, it's called the GST

And as Bond or Packer said "I wouldn't mind paying more tax if the gvt spent it wisely" But I guess that's not about to happen

Nic

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Originally Posted by nic

They did that ages ago, it's called the GST

And as Bond or Packer said "I wouldn't mind paying more tax if the gvt spent it wisely" But I guess that's not about to happen

Nic

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At risk of being a pedant GST is only a sales tax, not income or other little hidden nasties.

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They did that ages ago, it's called the GST

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Actually, what we're talking about here is income tax.

The GST replaced sales tax and various other taxes and duties imposed by State & Federal Governments on goods and services. That worked well, too didn't it? It was supposed to stop the 'blackmarket' trade. Hah! It was supposed to eliminate stamp duties. As if!! It was meant to provide extra revenue to the States so they could fix up the hospitals, schools and the roads. Yeah, right!!!

What did it really do? It made life more complicated for a lot of businesses and drove a few to the wall. We still pay stamp duty and the State government still cries poor.

Kerry Packer pays GST on everything the same as we do ;) I'll bet he wouldn't volunteer to pay more income tax, whether it was spent wisely or no.

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Originally Posted by Iain

At risk of being a pedant GST is only a sales tax, not income or other little hidden nasties.

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Technically yes, but don't you need to buy things to live ?
From where I stand giving them tax on you income or giving them tax when you spend that income is the same. Unless you never spend anything, but then how do you live ?
Income tax is only part of it, you can't split up the 2 (direct & indirect taxes)

"THEY" don't wan't you to see it that way , quick tinfoil hats on :D :D

Nic

Hi Jack E

I am surprised that your wife does not know what student unions provide, given that she has been at university for 7 years! I have been enrolled in various courses (undergraduate and postgraduate) for a few more years than that (and before you ask... graduated them all and passed every single subject!) and am fully aware of what a university union or student guild can provide, given that they represent all students (including marginalised groups such as Women, Queer, International, Indigenous and those students with a disability). There are several that are conducive to improving social cohesion on campus, such as activities based events, environment, education and sport - without these many students would feel rather isolated on campus. Some universities offer "Life" memberships too...

I am sure anyone who has been to unversity would agree it is not just about getting a career qualification in the form of a degree - an education is about so much more than that. Being a university student is a unique phase of life in which many lifelong friendships and networks are established, where our political opinions and ideologies develop and change, where we can engage in freedom of expression and the free flow of ideas, debates about the meaning of life and the role of society. This must be nourished and protected if society is to grow and become richer. I think that Student Unions are absolutely vital in providing a sense of campus community and campus culture at university. The activities and events the Guild runs are an essential part of university life. Just think how dull and dismal university would be without O'Week celebrations, without any clubs or societies, without any of the bands, BBQ's, markets, films, fiestas and forums run by the Guild.

The National Union of Students in its current form came into being in 1987 after the collapse of its predecessor, the Australian Union of Students, in 1984. It was formed at the same time that the Hawke government introduced the Higher Education Contribution Scheme (a system of deferred tuition payments), abolishing the free education system previously introduced by the Whitlam government. It shouldn't just be about the rich going to university, or city dwellers - but for all classes (through scholarships and opportunity), rural/remote, etc etc. It'd be boring if it was just rich white kids!

Quite often many of us do not use the services that our taxes pay for. I don't really want to use cancer and palliation services provided by the heatlh system, corrective services by the prison system etc...that my taxes pay for, but realise that these services are necessary for a functioning society where there is not extreme health and welfare inequities that set this country apart from others.

I'd be all for rejecting the tax cuts and diverting them to where we desperately need it - working in health and education, I can see glaringly the health inequities and inequalities faced every day. Recently one of my patients was torn between providing food for her family or a new asthma medication for her son (whilst other folk zoom by in their fuel guzzling 4WDs adding to the very problem that causes asthma....). :confused:

Cheers
Dan

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Originally Posted by Iain

10% flate rate, never going to happen here Comrade :rolleyes:

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I don't know what the "Comrade" bit was about but I was being facetious.
Kerry Packer and the ultra rich would love a flat tax rate.
If he had one billion dollars worth of PBL shares he would earn $37 million a year from dividends. The company pays 30% tax and shareholders get that as franking credits so under the present system he would only have to pay the difference of 17% tax because he was on the top rate. So effectively he would be paying the same tax rate as a wage earner on less than $20,000.
Under a 10% flat rate system, not only would he not pay the 17%, but he wouldn't pay ANY tax at all and the tax office would have to give him back 60% of the 30% tax that the company paid on their profits.
Under the new tax arrangement, a person will be able to earn up to $70,000 on investments such as this and never have to pay a cent in tax.
Any person who thinks that rich people pay a lot of tax is severely misinformed. Wage earners are the only ones who pay high taxes on high incomes.

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Originally Posted by adrian

I don't know what the "Comrade" bit was about but I was being facetious.

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So was I, equality for all, animal farm etc........from he who drives a fuel guzzling 4WD for a reason, not like the pollies who have one huge V8 limo each when they finish a sitting, can't they car pool, the food additives which I believe are a major contribution to asthma, and I have one daughter who suffers from this, people who won't car pool, oil burners who think it's OK, cockies spraying on windy days, objectors to wind farms, I'm sure the birds soon learn that they do hurt if you try to go through one, oil companies ripping us off blind, so the list goes on but it's all good for the Government who I notice won't put a ban on smoking and associated products.

I have been reading this post with a fair amount of interest.
One thing i cant work out tho and it is never mentioned when the debate turns to tax and the rich v poor.
What magical $$ figure defines rich from poor?
40,50,60 grand......which is it?
We always hear about the Packers etc and their ilk, incredibly wealthy and good luck to them, but they cannot be the sole example surely.
The vast majority of the population earns considerably less.....so the question remains:
Who are the rich?

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Originally Posted by maglite

Who are the rich?

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Anyone with more dough than me.


Cheers,

P :D

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Originally Posted by Iain

So was I, equality for all, animal farm etc........from he who drives a fuel guzzling 4WD for a reason, not like the pollies who have one huge V8 limo each when they finish a sitting, can't they car pool, the food additives which I believe are a major contribution to asthma, and I have one daughter who suffers from this, people who won't car pool, oil burners who think it's OK, cockies spraying on windy days, objectors to wind farms, I'm sure the birds soon learn that they do hurt if you try to go through one, oil companies ripping us off blind, so the list goes on but it's all good for the Government who I notice won't put a ban on smoking and associated products.

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From another owner of a gas guzzling 4WD...........ditto to all the above.
As for the objectors to wind farms, I don't understand what they are all about. Can anyone think of something bad about wind generators.
I can remember talking to someone who was going to go to a demo to protest the construction of the monorail in Sydney. I couldn't help having a dig at them by telling them that if their great great grandchildren are as caring as they are, they will be joining a demo 100 yrears from now because the Sydney City Council want to tear it down.
Don't get me started on smoking. ;)

Just to clarify,

All I am saying is that the tax system has made a move toward becomig fairer and many people are complaining about this

I don't understand why.

I do acknowledge and am happy about the tax cut I will recieve, that is why I said is anybody "else" happy about the cuts, implying that I am.

I do acknowledge that there are areas which require more funding but I don't see why I should pay a higher percentage for this than any other Australian (and yes, I do realise that this is never going to change!!).
I'm sure if you paid more than somebody else to join a golf club and they got to drive a buggy while you had to walk you would not be very happy. In every other aspect of life if you pay more money you get the better deal!

Thanks to whoever brought up the GST. Wasn't this to be followed by a reduction in income tax. I guess this is what has just happened so in effect they are not tax cuts at all, just evening up a system meaning we have been grossly overcharged since the introduction of GST.

Dan, you said about student unions "There are several that are conducive to improving social cohesion on campus, such as activities based events, environment, education and sport - without these many students would feel rather isolated on campus." It is great that uni students are provided social oulets but why shouldn't they pay for them as they use them? If they get a job and earn money on graduation they will have to!!
You also said "Being a university student is a unique phase of life in which many lifelong friendships and networks are established, where our political opinions and ideologies develop and change, where we can engage in freedom of expression and the free flow of ideas, debates about the meaning of life and the role of society."
I agree that political opinions can be formed, namely those against compulsory student unions!
I agree that we can have freedom of expression, ie, expressing your freedom not to contribute to a student union!

My partner attended the UQ Medicine School where she actively contributed to many clubs and organisations run by the Med school, not the University as a whole. She was also forced to contribute to the union so it could provide services she did not use.

BTW, my partner drives a fuel guzzling 4WD, the fuel for which we pay tax on :D

Remember, I started this thread not by saying I don't want the government to provide services but by saying I was sick of the fact that some people are complaining about those of us that pay alot of tax getting a bigger tax cut.
I cannot see how high income earners now being taxed less is not fair (or at least moving towards fair).

Cheers
Jack.

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What magical $$ figure defines rich from poor?

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What about > 2 standard deviations higher than the mean? That sounds good to me. :)

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Originally Posted by maglite

What magical $$ figure defines rich from poor?
40,50,60 grand......which is it?

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When I get there I will let you know :D :D :D

Jack.

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Originally Posted by silentC

What about > 2 standard deviations higher than the mean? That sounds good to me. :)

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Nah, I prefer Midge's definition :D

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Originally Posted by dan_tom

I am surprised that your wife does not know what student unions provide, given that she has been at university for 7 years!

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Dan,

My partner knows exactly what student unions provide. She paid fees for 7 years for services she didn't use.
If she did use services, she would have gladly contributed to those she used, not the others.
That is what I think all students should have the freedom to do!!

Jack.

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Originally Posted by Jack E

Dan,

My partner knows exactly what student unions provide. She paid fees for 7 years for services she didn't use.
If she did use services, she would have gladly contributed to those she used, not the others.
That is what I think all students should have the freedom to do!!

Jack.

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I wholeheartedly agree.
If someone is at a university and is in financial difficulties they wouldn't want to seek help from advisors sponsored by the student union. Same goes for help with accommodation.
I'm sure they wouldn't want to look at the many notice boards maintained by the student union that are full of useful information that is used by all students every day of the week.
ALSO, along those lines I think anyone who doesn't belong to a union shouldn't expect wage rises unless they go into the bosses office and demand them. It seems that a very large portion of the Australian workforce should be embarassed about accepting a wage rise.
ALSO, I don't have kids in schools so you can take out that component of my taxes. Those little mongels are just freeloading of me.
ALSO, I'm not handicapped or unemployed so you can take the social security component out of my taxes.
ALSO, I only use roads in NSW as a rule so the component of my taxes that pays for a freeway in Melbourne can be handled by Victorians.
ALSO, I have cancers from time to time but nothing that will kill me so why should I pay for people to have chemotherapy.
ALSO, I'm not fussed about invading other countries so you can take that out of my taxes.

Oh s**t, I forgot...............I don't pay taxes. But if I did you could take all that stuff out because I don't use it.
I had a look at all the symbols on the right of this page but there don't seem to be any that show a tongue in cheek. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

I had to edit this post to add that I could give you an almost iron clad guarantee that your partner used many facilities provided by the student union. Did she get a map of the Uni when she started? Was there a noticeboard that she looked at for information every day? Was there a theatre group that gave free shows or a band that played for free and did she attend any social gatherings? Did she ever pick up a brochure of any kind? Did she ever read a book in the library that was provided by the student union?
http://www.union.unimelb.edu.au/
Have a look at any of the student union organisation and you will find that it's not all about subsidised student demos. If you have a look at a bio of politicians such as Tony Abbott you will find that they were strongly involved in student union activities and very glad of it.

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Originally Posted by maglite

What magical $$ figure defines rich from poor?
40,50,60 grand......which is it?

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50 grand (100 for couples) makes you a high income earner and a leach on the Medicare system if you don't have private health cover. :(



When does get home from work? :D

I want to make a comment in this thread too! :D

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Originally Posted by maglite

...so the question remains:
Who are the rich?

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If you can pay cash for your beemer and didn't care about the introduction of the GST.

But I wouldn't say it's as low as $50K.

My old bank manager wanted to know how I could afford a new BMW and Landcruiser when I was only earning $25k a year :D
The joys of having ones own business (then).

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Originally Posted by Jack E

I think the government should tax everybody at a flat rate of 10%, no rebates, no concessions, no deductions, no exceptions.

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When Sir Joh ran for P.M. he wanted to do exactly that , all the pollies said he was mad/senile for suggesting it could never work etc......

Now we have GST and still all the other taxes consessions deductions rebates
and we are one of the highest taxed in the world even reading all the replys in this thread is taxing



I work hard because the people on the dole depend on me!

I have stirred up a hornets nest haven't I :D :D :D

Please remember when replying to this thread that my two main points are;

1. I believe we should all pay the same tax rate, not the same amount of tax. (I have also said a couple of times throughout this thread that the services funded by taxpayers are necessary, but the tax system should be fairer).
I could find taxpayer funded services that I don't use as easily as others have highlighted the fact that there are those I do use :D :D

2. I believe student unions should be voluntary. Fair enough they provide services, if you want to use them you pay for them, welcome to the world.

I am not complaining about paying tax - just the difference in rates.
Nor am I complaining about students - I am in fact supporting many of them in their belief that they should have the freedom to choose whether they belong to a union or not.
A tradesman cannot be forced to join a union, it is up to the union to make itself attractive.

I wouldn't say that I am happy to pay tax but I do realise taxes are essential to suatain this wonderful country in which we live. :) :) :)

Jack

PS Adrian, I am not having a go at you but if you see the services provided by the government as necessary, why don't you pay tax?

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Originally Posted by adrian

If he had one billion dollars worth of PBL shares he would earn $37 million a year from dividends. The company pays 30% tax and shareholders get that as franking credits so under the present system he would only have to pay the difference of 17% tax because he was on the top rate. So effectively he would be paying the same tax rate as a wage earner on less than $20,000.

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A slight correction. Most of this income will be channelled through a holding company, and being fully franked will not attract any income tax. Income tax payment will be deferred to the time the money is taken from the holding company, which will not happen before the sun turns green.

Rich people do not pay more than 30% tax. It is those that cannot afford the creative solutions that pay more.

The problem with the 10% scheme is that it does not work. First, 10% is not enough to keep the government income level. 20% is more likely to be right. Furthermore, it will not solve the problem of tax evasions - as long as the gains from evasion are larger than the costs, people will find tax evasion techniques. Another problem is that it is not necessarily fair. "Fairness" depends on your views. is it fair that I should pay more income tax than any other person just because I earn more? Is it fair that some extremely rich person will pay the same amount of tax for each dollar he uses for his laisure trips to Europe as I pay for essencials like bread, shelter or tools?

As for whos rich I am I dont make 50k a year but i've got a great wife Loving kids and two grandsons
not to mention a 7x6 meter workshop and a 7x6 meter storage shed
who could ask for more........ well maby a 10x10 meter workshop but then you always need a bigger shed


The trouble with life is there's no background music.

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Originally Posted by javali

Is it fair that some extremely rich person will pay the same amount of tax for each dollar he uses for his laisure trips to Europe as I pay for essencials like bread, shelter or tools?

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I believe it is fair. Don't forget, the high income earner would pay the same rate on his essentials as a middle or low income earner, what he does with what he earns above that is his good fortune (be it through luck or wise life choices).

I count myself rich in many ways, money is not one of them.

Jack.

I am really happy to be paying taxes, especially since i found that the government can afford to spend $5000 per chair for fat-asred cabinet ministers, most of whom are complete oxygen bandits and a waste of space. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Ashore

As for whos rich I am I dont make 50k a year but i've got a great wife Loving kids and two grandsons
not to mention a 7x6 meter workshop and a 7x6 meter storage shed
who could ask for more........ well maby a 10x10 meter workshop but then you always need a bigger shed


The trouble with life is there's no background music.

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Ashore, I couldn't agree more. All you need is plenty of Love :p and pocket money to buy toys err ... tools :D :D

Nic

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Originally Posted by Jack E

PS Adrian, I am not having a go at you but if you see the services provided by the government as necessary, why don't you pay tax?

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I wouldn't mind if you were having a go at me. I'm very thick skinned and don't mind debate. That's what this particular forum is all about. (Friendly discussion)
As for paying taxes. Even if I wanted to there is no way I would be allowed to. My finances are structured in such a way that the only thing that happens at tax time is the tax office sends money to me. The only way that I could pay taxes would be if the government required all companies to pay dividends out of pre-tax profits so that the tax burden would be transferred to the shareholders. It would be great for the government because a significant part of company profits would be taxed at 47c in the dollar for shareholders instead of 30c in the dollar for companies. Watch Packer, Murdoch, Lowey etc squeal if that ever happened. Not to mention superannuation funds.
I've never shirked my responsibility where tax is concerned. Every year at tax time, when I was working, I would claim my union fees and that was it. The tax office got maximum value out of me. I was paying more than twice the rate of tax that Packer and any other member of the non PAYE club pay.
My previous, rather long winded post was to try and point out why I am glad that we live in a rather egalitarian society. Far better in almost every way to any on the planet. One in all in.
I also give thanks that we live in a 'robin hood' type of society because user pays sucks. It's the catchcry of every capitalist who wanted to make a dollar.
We pay tax at different rates because we have the capacity to do so and it is necessary for our society to maintain that balance.
Poor people don't get a concession when they go to buy the groceries. If I buy milk it costs exactly the same as Packer's milk but I pay an infinitely larger percentage of my income in GST for it than he does. Higher rates of tax are a very clumsy way of evening out the burden.

PS. If rich people start paying 47c in the dollar I promise that I will too.

It seems that everyone has a different point of veiw to what costitutes being labeled "Rich", but nobody can point the finger on an exact amount.
It hit the papers last week in Perth, that a laborer is on 100k+ per year working on the construction of the south bound rail line.
I bet if you asked him, he wouldnt classify himself as being rich.

The current tax system is here to stay but i cant help but wonder what price is put on incentive....if any.
Rather than change the current income tax regime,i also use only some of the govt services on offer, i would prefer that "other" taxes like CGT and double dipping of super were abolished instead.

in my humble opinion student unions at uni are WOFTAM - i never nor my wife used any of thier facilities (mind you I was an adult and my wife was an O/S student so we didnt need all the bullshyte that undergrads seem to need to learn how to think...)

as far as taxes go see this thread for my opinion. I think i'm being reasonably fair in this post....

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...1&page=1&pp=15

Zed,

You have my vote, not only for your policies but also because everytime I see little johnny on tele I laugh, I think you would humour me also :D

Adrian,

Glad to hear that you are here for "friendly discussion" also. It is the "Have your say" forum afterall.
I am happy for you because you can hide your money, one day I hope to be able to achieve the same. Unfortunately for high income earners this is where the problem starts. The higher income earners hide their income, meaning the not as high earners pay alot of tax and then want to hide theirs.
As this has been going on for years and shows no hope of change I plan to do the same thing.

When it all boils down to it I do want to make a dollar and the less I have to pay to support others the better.

Jack.

Did anyone see the Darling Buds of May :D :D , not the garbage seppo version, the proper one, sums this up nicely ;)