Unconscionable Conduct By Telstra

Is this morally right?

From this 'Age' story: Telstra Storing Data on Behalf of US Government.

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Telstra agreed more than a decade ago to store huge volumes of electronic communications it carried between Asia and America for potential surveillance by United States intelligence agencies.

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Telstra has also sent 170 Australian jobs overseas according to this Age story: More Telstra Jobs Headed Offshore.

On another note.

I'm not having a go at anyone on these forums, but if your with Telstra/Bigpond, why haven't you sourced your telecommunications requirements elsewhere?

I have high speed internet, home phone and two mobile phones (his and hers) and my bill with Telstra averaged $200 per month. That was on a CONTRACT. I had a look around and sourced exactly the same needs (home telephone, high speed internet and two mobile phones) with NO CONTRACT. I ended up going with Internode and my bill now averages around $130 per month (same sort of usage as with Telstra). On top of that I have a greater bandwidth allowance (70GB as opposed to 30GB), cheaper mobile rates, cheaper home phone rates and actually get to speak to an Australian when I need to call them. Internode is an Australian company :)

Please, do your sums and switch from this dreadful company that is Telstra/Bigpond. Switching is painless, all you have to do is call. :)

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Originally Posted by Scott

I'm not having a go at anyone on these forums, but if your with Telstra/Bigpond, why haven't you sourced your telecommunications requirements elsewhere?

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Some of us don't have that luxury, Telstra still or did have the monopoly on coverage for mobiles in remote areas that most other phone companies don't have, so we have no choice but to stay with them to get reliable coverage unless you switch to a satellite phone.

Just about every tradesman that I know up here is with Telstra as it is the only company that has decent coverage.

You'd be amazed by the amount of people visiting the region that cannot get coverage due to being with another company.

I would love to be able to do what you did. My problem is that I live in an ADSL blackspot - pair gain only on the phone line which means ADSL 1. BUT I have the foxtel cable and use that for very high speed internet (115Mb/s). Stuck with with Telstra - expensive but no other choice as my area is not even on the NBN horizon (Liberal seat). :C
Les

I just hope that Telstra is continuing its 'charge to the hilt' pricing model for its services....

What the government pays to snoop on you

"AT&T, for example, imposes a $325 "activation fee" for each wiretap and $10 a day to maintain it."

People want to sleep safely at night but don't want to know what it takes to provide that safety.

These measures are required to stop and catch bad people who want to do bad things.

Personally I couldn't care less what it takes to stop these people and if they want to read my facebook status' then go for it. Some of them are quite witty :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by corbs

People want to sleep safely at night but don't want to know what it takes to provide that safety.

These measures are required to stop and catch bad people who want to do bad things.

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But how do we know that? Where is the oversight? Who defines who/what is bad or not? Why is an Australian company giving an American Intelligence Service the data? America's interests are not always ours.

So because you personally don't know how the information is being used you believe there is no oversight? The simple fact is that these processes directly save lives.

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Originally Posted by corbs

The simple fact is that these processes directly save lives.

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And indirectly places other lives in danger. Collateral damage, as they say.

I just think it's another step in Americanising our country and adding another layer of control over our already totalitarian society.

What other lives are being put in danger?

I think it's time for some people to put on their alfoil hats.

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Originally Posted by corbs

What other lives are being put in danger?

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There have always been mistakes made in interpreting information such as this.

Did you know that the American Government, by law, cannot eavesdrop or spy on U.S. citizens on U.S soil but have enfettered access to foreign communications (fourth amendment)? Why is the Australian Government allowing this when the Yanks are not listening to their own backyard?

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Originally Posted by lesmeyer

I would love to be able to do what you did. My problem is that I live in an ADSL blackspot - pair gain only on the phone line which means ADSL 1. BUT I have the foxtel cable and use that for very high speed internet (115Mb/s). Stuck with with Telstra - expensive but no other choice as my area is not even on the NBN horizon (Liberal seat). :C
Les

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It's quite sad when people like DJ and yourself are stuck in the Telecommunications backwater. Telstra knows this thus their exorbitant and inflexible pricing structure.

By the way, I live in the 4th safest Labor party seat in Australia and we haven't even been listed for NBN for another 5 or 6 years. In fact we sill can't get ADSL 2 where I live.

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Originally Posted by Scott

There have always been mistakes made in interpreting information such as this.

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So because there's a chance of mistakes it should not happen? That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with and if you logically extend that same argument I'm pretty sure society as we now know it would cease to exist. Can you think of anyone anywhere who has not made a mistake? The issue is not that mistakes will be made, it's how they are addressed when discovered.

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Originally Posted by Scott

Did you know that the American Government, by law, cannot eavesdrop or spy on U.S. citizens on U.S soil but have enfettered access to foreign communications (fourth amendment)? Why is the Australian Government allowing this when the Yanks are not listening to their own backyard?

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Yes, I knew this and Edward Snowden has shown that they are listening in their own yard. This does not change my opinion.

Who decides who's bad? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

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Originally Posted by corbs

What other lives are being put in danger?

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Any evidence to support the claim "the fact is lives are being saved"

Data collected to be stored in the US. The document also specifies the facility should be run exclusively by US staff.

Doesn't make me feel too at ease.:no:

Conspiracy theory


Enemy of the State

Just 2 'old' movies that give some idea of what is possible out there. Telstra information is nothing to everything else. All the surveillance cameras that are out there with automatic facial recognition software.

We cant hide. When they can turn on our phones remotely and listen to our microphones when the phone is not even in use .....

I have an iPhone - if I set the map app to give me directions and then remove the sim and have no wifi it will still track where I am on the journey and give me directions how to get to my destination

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Originally Posted by DaveTTC

I have an iPhone - if I set the map app to give me directions and then remove the sim and have no wifi it will still track where I am on the journey and give me directions how to get to my destination

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I didn't know that, going to have to give it a go.

yep Telstra are bastards.
I worked in the residental faults call centre for 6 months, back stabbing, using, infighting among staff.
The most interesting part was the 2 weeks training, at the end they said "oh by the way, if a customer threatens to go to the media or a politican you are to ignore every rule and policy there is and do what you have to do to get the fault fixed.

Two years working for iinet, a customer rings up to churn from another ISP - every ISP except Telstra it's a 3 day process, with Telstra customers it's up to six weeks.

Unfortunately Helstra have the infrastructure, I use them for my mobile cos no one else has the coverage outside the metro area.

Home phone and net though - Iinet, 2000 to now as a customer, 2005-2007 as a staffer.
Not the cheapest in town but a rock solid connection and good staff on the rare occasions you have to call them

You'll find that the iPhone uses a Broadcom GPS chip - Single-Chip AGPS Solution - BCM4750 | Broadcom - so it's nothing sinister, just standard GPS capability.

And why is everybody treating this as new????

Echelon was discussed in the European Parliament in 2000-01, and their recommendations were that citizens should "routinely use cryptography in their communications to protect their privacy, because economic espionage with ECHELON has been conducted by the US intelligence agencies".

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Originally Posted by Scott

I didn't know that, going to have to give it a go.

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I dont know how it does it. If you go off route it does not replot - it seems to need the net or SIM card to do that but yeah it definately works

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Originally Posted by Master Splinter

You'll find that the iPhone uses a Broadcom GPS chip - Single-Chip AGPS Solution - BCM4750 | Broadcom - so it's nothing sinister, just standard GPS capability.

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and that works without a sim or internet ...... how does that work?

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Originally Posted by DaveTTC

and that works without a sim or internet ...... how does that work?

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Just like your car GPS system. A GPS receiver listens for a psudorandom timing signal from the GPS satellites and triangulates your position by seeing how much each GPS satellite's timing signal varies from both its own timing count and that of the other satellites.

IE:
Phone GPS chip: "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12"
Satellite A: "2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12"
Satellite B: "16, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12"
Satellite C: "3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14"

Phone GPS: "Hummm, I'm 1 off from satellite 1, -1 off sat 2, and 2 off from sat 3. Now if I check in my handy ephemeris of satellite position and velocity data, add in propagation delay caused by conditions in the ionosphere, then calculating the speed-of-light induced delay from each satellite's position gives me my position.
"Now, I'll just pull out my accurate-to-within-14-nanoseconds-stopwatch, time the delay, and it looks like I'm....just entering the tunnel under Sydney Harbour...I don't know why I bother. La la la, not listening...."

A phone GPS will be able to show your position on the map if it happens to have the map data for that area still in memory. Once you hit a location that you don't have map data for, it can't place you on a map.

Since the sim is out and there's no wireless data connection, it can't download the map data for the new area. It'll still know where you are (with reference to satellite locations), but until it gets new map data, it can't draw the map for you.


(Trivia: The theoretical accuracy of the current GPS system is about 3-4mm....but that's with lab-grade equipment, not something you bung on a chip and sell for under $5.)

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Originally Posted by Master Splinter

Just like your car GPS system. A GPS receiver listens for a psudorandom timing signal from the GPS satellites and triangulates your position by seeing how much each GPS satellite's timing signal varies from both its own timing count and that of the other satellites.

IE:
Phone GPS chip: "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12"
Satellite A: "2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12"
Satellite B: "16, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12"
Satellite C: "3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14"

Phone GPS: "Hummm, I'm 1 off from satellite 1, -1 off sat 2, and 2 off from sat 3. Now if I check in my handy ephemeris of satellite position and velocity data, add in propagation delay caused by conditions in the ionosphere, then calculating the speed-of-light induced delay from each satellite's position gives me my position.
"Now, I'll just pull out my accurate-to-within-14-nanoseconds-stopwatch, time the delay, and it looks like I'm....just entering the tunnel under Sydney Harbour...I don't know why I bother. La la la, not listening...."

A phone GPS will be able to show your position on the map if it happens to have the map data for that area still in memory. Once you hit a location that you don't have map data for, it can't place you on a map.

Since the sim is out and there's no wireless data connection, it can't download the map data for the new area. It'll still know where you are (with reference to satellite locations), but until it gets new map data, it can't draw the map for you.

(Trivia: The theoretical accuracy of the current GPS system is about 3-4mm....but that's with lab-grade equipment, not something you bung on a chip and sell for under $5.)

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thats cool to know, now I know that should work with my ipod too if it has GPS

so can I be tracked by my phone GPS even if I have no SIM card in?

It should work the same in your iPad. It works that way in my Samsung tablet (there's even an option on my Samsung to explicitly cache the map data for later use).

And as for tracked, if you are using the GPS facility then it'll certainly know where you are (that's by definition). What it does with this information will depend on the software. Judging by what I've seen happen, it'll store your 'last known position' data (the point where you switched it off) till the next session.

If you've switched it off, then driven to the other side of town, stayed there overnight and then switched it on in the morning, it'll typically display the map for your last known position for a minute or so while it listens to the latest ephemeris data from the satellites to update itself. During this time you'll probably see your position suddenly jump when it realises you ain't where you were last time.

If you have 'assistive GPS' enabled, this'll happen much faster as assistive GPS also uses cell phone tower signal strength data to locate you. As this doesn't have to wait for a satellite delivered ephemeris update, it'll typically update in seconds.

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Originally Posted by smidsy

yep Telstra are bastards.
I worked in the residental faults call centre for 6 months, back stabbing, using, infighting among staff.
The most interesting part was the 2 weeks training, at the end they said "oh by the way, if a customer threatens to go to the media or a politican you are to ignore every rule and policy there is and do what you have to do to get the fault fixed.

Two years working for iinet, a customer rings up to churn from another ISP - every ISP except Telstra it's a 3 day process, with Telstra customers it's up to six weeks.

Unfortunately Helstra have the infrastructure, I use them for my mobile cos no one else has the coverage outside the metro area.

Home phone and net though - Iinet, 2000 to now as a customer, 2005-2007 as a staffer.
Not the cheapest in town but a rock solid connection and good staff on the rare occasions you have to call them

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Been with Iinet since it was Westnet, never had a complaint about service and the staff is GREAT.
Every time I contact I get an email asking me how the staff performed.

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Originally Posted by corbs

People want to sleep safely at night but don't want to know what it takes to provide that safety.

These measures are required to stop and catch bad people who want to do bad things.

Personally I couldn't care less what it takes to stop these people and if they want to read my facebook status' then go for it. Some of them are quite witty :rolleyes:

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I would sleep better if the main phone company didn't assist other countries with economic espionage.

You also stated that this is saving lives. prove it. show were it has saved a single life. Even the americans can't show that to their own politicians,its just the Americans overreaching and should be shut down and our government should be complaining to the American government in the strictest terms. they are treating us as "enemies of the state". If they want to treat us as enemies, then fine close the bases now

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Originally Posted by Gra

You also stated that this is saving lives. prove it. show were it has saved a single life. Even the americans can't show that to their own politicians...

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You are correct, I cannot point to specific lives which have been saved by the use of this information just as you can't prove lives haven't been saved.

There is a big difference between can't show their politicians and won't show their politicians though. By giving out that type of information it may very well compromise ongoing investigations.

While the NSA have indicated that up to 50 terrorist plots have been discovered through the use of this information. From what I've read most of those have been discovered through traditional investigative techniques but it does appear that there are at least four or five which have been discovered by analyzing the information.

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Originally Posted by Gra

...they are treating us as "enemies of the state"...

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How do you figure this? I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a country that wasn't storing this type of information. The French came out all up in arms about the yanks doing it until it was pointed out that they have their own program which does exactly the same thing.

I'm certainly not a fan of the Americans but quoting someone else (can't remember who at the moment :rolleyes:) "you can't have 100% security and 100% privacy".

How do they define 'terrorist plot' when talking about their successes?

Is it something like 'an accurate and informed discussion of explosive initiation techniques between a known explosives expert resident in an overseas country and a US citizen with connections to extremist groups who is, on arrest, found to have a shed full of 500 kilos of ammonium nitrate', *

OR

Does the definition also include arrests of teenagers making jokes in online games - Texas teen makes violent joke during video game, is jailed | The Daily Caller as a success??

And what's the NSA's false positive rate? If we assume the 'terrorist rate' to be 0.01% of the population and the NSA's information mining is 90% accurate, 10,000 people will be incorrectly labeled as terrorists (however defined) for every nine actual terrorists caught (and one missed).

*note the use of a specific chemical and quantity, not a general term such as 'chemical used in bombmaking', as that definition could include the contents of anyone's laundry or bathroom cabinet. Even large quantities could have explanations - if you are like me, and like play around with things like anodising aluminium, you'll find that no, you can't buy that convenient one litre bottle of sulphuric acid from Super Cheap Auto as they now only sell them with batteries, so you have to take a half hour drive to a specialist battery retailer and buy it from there; since I've invested an hour of time just to get there, am I going to buy just one litre, or will I buy the 20 litre drum which only costs four times as much as the one liter??? I'm not all that keen on having 20 liters of sulfuric acid in my garage, but I'm not keen on killing an hour of my time just to get a single litre, either.

And I bet this thread is being followed closely by the powers that be

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Originally Posted by DaveTTC

if I set the map app to give me directions and then remove the sim and have no wifi it will still track where I am on the journey and give me directions how to get to my destination

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Dave, it will track you anyway- no need to set the app going.

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Originally Posted by corbs

I'm certainly not a fan of the Americans but quoting someone else (can't remember who at the moment :rolleyes:) "you can't have 100% security and 100% privacy".

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And to para-phrase Ben Franklin- Anyone who would give up their liberty in the name of security deserves neither, and will get neither.

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Originally Posted by Dragonstaff

And to para-phrase Ben Franklin- Anyone who would give up their liberty in the name of security deserves neither, and will get neither.

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Liberty:
a. Freedom from captivity, imprisonment, slavery or despotic control;
b. the right or power to do as one pleases;
c. a right, privilege, or immunity, enjoyed by prescription or grant
(Oxford Concise Australian Dictionary)

I can't really see how that quote is relevant as liberty is different to privacy.

During Ben Franklins time, how many people hijacked passenger jets and crashed them into buildings where thousands of people were working without a declaration of war?

"He that would live in peace and at ease must not speak all he knows or all he sees" - Ben Franklin

"Wine is constant proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Ben Franklin

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Originally Posted by corbs

The simple fact is that these processes directly save lives.

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I read this picturing a uniformed Jack Nicholson growling it out in a courtroom.

You cant handle the truth! Best line, ever.

The quote was actually "Those who would give up ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to purchase a little TEMPORARY SAFETY deserve neither LIBERTY nor SAFETY." (Historical review of Pennsylvania, 1759, cover). However, it had been used by Franklin before that.

Its context was when the American states were still part of the British empire, and things were getting testy in the colony of Pennsylvania, which had worries such as indians and the French. Franklin was urging that the colonies be able to defend themselves freely against attackers (by raising money to buy guns), rather than accepting the defense that came from the King.

It's interesting to note that both the Boston Tea party and the action at the Delaware Crossing were both terrorist acts. Should the USA be declared a rogue state???

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Originally Posted by Scott

Is this morally right?

From this 'Age' story: Telstra Storing Data on Behalf of US Government.



Telstra has also sent 170 Australian jobs overseas according to this Age story: More Telstra Jobs Headed Offshore.

On another note.

I'm not having a go at anyone on these forums, but if your with Telstra/Bigpond, why haven't you sourced your telecommunications requirements elsewhere?

I have high speed internet, home phone and two mobile phones (his and hers) and my bill with Telstra averaged $200 per month. That was on a CONTRACT. I had a look around and sourced exactly the same needs (home telephone, high speed internet and two mobile phones) with NO CONTRACT. I ended up going with Internode and my bill now averages around $130 per month (same sort of usage as with Telstra). On top of that I have a greater bandwidth allowance (70GB as opposed to 30GB), cheaper mobile rates, cheaper home phone rates and actually get to speak to an Australian when I need to call them. Internode is an Australian company :)

Please, do your sums and switch from this dreadful company that is Telstra/Bigpond. Switching is painless, all you have to do is call. :)

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Scott

Whilst I agre with most of what you say, I have to concur with DJ on the availability of services in remote locations. In fact I don't really regard us as remote at 200Km West of Brisbane, but it is still next to impossible to divest ourselves of Telstra.

The consequence of this is that I regularly have to endure SWMBO locking swords with Telstra. (I'm thinking of buying her a Samurai sword for her birthday). If she could find an alternative provider she would. I don't normally run a mobile phone, but I am about to switch to Aldi, as they will give a service in our area, It is only an emergency phone and so SWMBO can check up on me when I am away from home :(. I suspect she has a global tracking programme, but can't confirm this.

One of SWMBO's biggest complaints is she often can't talk to a person with a good command of the English language. This is really rich coming from a communication company! The reason is that the services have been contracted overseas. She often asks them if they are in Australia. They duck and weave on that one , but if the answer is eventually and reluctantly given "No," she puts the phone down or asks to be transferred to somebody in Australia.

Regards
Paul

Thanks to Telstra, you could live within 15 minutes drive of Parliament House and be totally unable to get ADSL because of the pair-gain technology they used throughout Gungahlin. Idiots.

(fastest line speed possible was 26.6kbps.)

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Originally Posted by corbs

... as liberty is different to privacy.

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I see privacy as being a branch of overall liberty...the freedom to keep things to yourself without Big Brother leaning over your shoulder and saying "Oooh, there he is, he's doing that".

Although a misquote from Alexander Tyler, it's still good. This was purported to be on the cycles of man and perhaps directly relate to the privacy related issues we have today.

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage

It was preceded with the following (again, urban myth) and while not relevant, shows a little light onto why we have our own self inflicted distopian nightmare:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

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Originally Posted by Master Splinter

Thanks to Telstra, you could live within 15 minutes drive of Parliament House and be totally unable to get ADSL because of the pair-gain technology they used throughout Gungahlin. Idiots.

(fastest line speed possible was 26.6kbps.)

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05 to 07 I worked tech support for iinet.
Spoke to a customer who had just buiilt a million dollar home in Mosman Park - pretty much the most expensive land in Perth.
She couldn't get broadband because Helstra had pair gained the whole development.

Interesting thread indeed.
I don't like the idea of the government or someone else opening my mail, postman delivered type; so I do have some trouble with the same being done of my email and then my internet usage monitored.
It was different at work when I was in paid employed; you got a warning saying your email would be monitored.

The other issue for me is, why is the American government going after Edward Snowden so hard?
Whistle blowers should be a protected species.

Back on Telstra, in the past, right from PMG days they seemed to be a law unto themselves and though deregulation has created some change, not enough.
I don't understand how they can still have the whole show under one umbrella, that is infrastructure, wholesale and retail then be one of the most expensive & one of the most difficult to deal with??

Anyways, just my two bobs worth, forgive me if I've said anything out of turn.
Cheers, crowie

Just coz ya paranoid, doesn't mean that THEY aren't out to get you!. :wink:

Madness takes it's toll, - Please have exact change handy! :U

Would all of those who believe in psychokinesis, please raise my right hand! :doh:

When you speak to God? - it's called prayer!. When God speaks to you? - It's called schizophrenia! :roll:

Telsra?

Buoy cot them with your $! I do!

Mobile Ph I only use prepay, and not Telstra!

Screw Telstra - they are traitors to our nation.

Ziggy Switcowski and the 3 amigos ran Telstra and it surprises you that Telstra supply the See Eye Eh with all Australian communications? :roll:

Who the frick do you think all them Yanks were working for? It sure as hell, wasn't us Aussies! :((

Ohh - and encrypted communications for business purposes? Forget it!
Little known inside tip - the Israeli's invented the software that encrypts, and the see eye eh inserted an op into the Israeli company that developed that software, & they inserted a sub routine into the software unknown to just about everyone including the Israelis. The software is used by just about every company that sells encryption equipment! That sub routine takes the unique decryption key and shrinks it to a microdot - and transmits it as the top of the letter "i", with the encrypted message, in the first or second letter "i", to occur within the message - and then the UK listening post ECHELON - takes all such encrypted messages - uses the micro dot decryption key to decode the message in real time and scans it for key words of interest to the worlds alphabet soup agencies.

The US have their own version of Echelon (As Snowden's make clear to the worlds press) and do just the same thing!

Thus encryption hides nothing, BUT if it helps you sleep better at night believing a lie, then by all means waste your company $ on it!. :)

I could tell you how I know this but then I'd have to kill us all! :D

Enough - political discussions usually get me banned from forums. :no: