Wooden Knife Handles

I've got a full tang blade without handles and thought you blokes would have a wealth of knowledge on a finish (for the wood I have yet to select and put on the blade) that'll stand up to the elements. I've done some research and I've read that tung oil/danish oil/pure tung oil both penetrate and seal the timber. But withouth experience I don't know what to buy. Any advice would be lovely.

I've also used alittle wax before and considered it might be a good secondary sealant, even though i reakon it'll probably rub off, it's something that I can re-apply. Maybe?

It would if we kow what the knife will the be used for

And the wood too :U

On the knives I've made, I've use either linseed oil (minimum 3 coats, 5 or more is better) or a linseed oil / beeswax mixture. It's not the best if the wood will be sitting in water but does fine for day to day use. Some woods don't need anything. If you go with the straight oil, expect to refresh the finish every few years. The wax mix has held up for 5 years and counting.

ron

Just lately , I have started dunking my foodbowls in hot RAW linseed oil .
The wood has to be bone dry of course , so that the oil replaces the air in the wood . I leave it in there until the bubbles stop . That way you know that the oil had gone in as deep as it can possibly can.
Its' the best water proofing for wood that I have come across , and it won't ever wear off :2tsup:

China: It'll be an outdoors knife. So it'll deffinitly have to be as water-proof as I can get it. Blood and fishgut-proof would be nice too, but I think water proof is the main concern. I don't want the wood to swell once it's on the handle.

Manuka Jock: I'm still unsure if I'm gonna be lazy with the wood and use stuff I can find locally, e.g: My dad has these old leangths of timber that he used to use to isolate power lines with. It seemed to be nice-ish timber. My other option is this "stabilised" wood I can find online. I'm still not sure what "stabilised" is but I'm guessing it's like force seasoned/treated.

son of bluegrass: Some woods don't need anything? That sounds handy ! What woods are these?

Linseed oil: I've heard it can rot or go rancid in the timber, is that true? (that's what lead me to tung oil)

Dunking in oil sounds effective ! I think that I would give that a shot given the info I've got so far. But would swapping the linseed for pure tung oil be a problem?

Take a look here for oil finish info

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Originally Posted by Hop Thief

Linseed oil: I've heard it can rot or go rancid in the timber, is that true ?

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Linseed oil is said to be the second oldest wood treatment known to man , after animal fat .
It does not go rancid in wood . It has been , and still is , used on house decorating , furniture finishing , food utensils , diningware , tool handles , weapons , and so on for thousands of years .
If it did go rancid in wood , the world would stink to high heaven :U

I like your idea of using wood that you come across in your daily like . It has a story to tell eh .
We woodturners do the same thing . A chunk out of somebodies firewood stack , a bit of fruit tree , a few rounds nicked from the council blokes trimming trees around the town , a tree that we felled for someone for free , swapping with other woodies , etc
Thats how we get such a broad range of wood
We hardly ever pay for it , 'cos we don't need to :2tsup:

Manuka Jack: Well you've settled my mind on that question then. Daily life timber it is ! I'll start with dads. :2tsup:

I'm glad to hear that linseed doesn't go rancid in wood. I like products that are simple and natural. by RAW do you mean Pure? As in not a polymer with thinners and stuff in it?

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Originally Posted by Hop Thief

Manuka Jack: Well you've settled my mind on that question then. Daily life timber it is ! I'll start with dads. :2tsup:

I'm glad to hear that linseed doesn't go rancid in wood. I like products that are simple and natural. by RAW do you mean Pure? As in not a polymer with thinners and stuff in it?

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Yep , thats it , Raw . You might be able to get it from the farm and horse racing suppliers too , they call it Flaxseed oil. It might be cheaper.

That other stuff sold as 'Boiled Linseed Oil' , is not actually boiled. Its the one that has the chemical driers in it , and is Not particularly food safe .


Linseed oil is good on metalwork too , the old blacksmiths used it as a finish .
Google it , you might be able to use it on the blades to in some fashion.

I've found a few references now that say it'll prevent rust. Makes it perfect for my knife and axe for both finishing and maintainance. Pretty decent stuff by the sounds of it.

It seems that the only difference I can find in writting about linseed oil and tung oil is the colour and shade of the finish. The darkening with age of linseed oil sounds very desirable. While the matt finish of the tung does also. Have I missed anything as far as differences go? Wiki seems to think that they both have around-about the same proctectivity and durability. I might even end up doing some test coats of both if I can buy small quantities.

I found this ( Tung & Linseed Oils ) which gets abit technical but seems to compare the two oils.. but to need to go into such detail to tell the difference between the two tells me that for my needs, their both about the same.

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Originally Posted by Hop Thief

I found this ( Tung & Linseed Oils ) which gets abit technical but seems to compare the two oils.. but to need to go into such detail to tell the difference between the two tells me that for my needs, their both about the same.

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For me it is a case of cost and availability .
The mildew , yellowing and UV issues are not issues to Treen (kitchenware).
I doubt that they will be with your knives either

Yeah I'm pretty sure the whole mildew thing is extremely rare, lots of people, including yourself, seem to use linseed oil without issue. I'd be pretty chuffed to use either at this point after all this reading. Even Ray Mears supports the old linseed oil !

I reckon I'll dunk the handles like you said. That should scare off any water that wants to get in.

Linseed oil is a good finish one advantage is that you can just keep on oiling it, without the need to remove or sand another fininish first, plus over the years it will build up a nice patina. I f you were buildiing a "special ops" type of knife I would use either a epoxy finish or use synthetic scales

I find straight linseed takes a very long time to dry so I tend to use BLO on my wooden tool handles.

However, to speed up final coats drying of both straight or boiled linseed you can always add your own drying agent. An example of his is white shellac. The way I was shown how to do it is as follows

For tool handles I use 2-3 coats of liberally applied linseed oil and leave it for a few days to dry out a bit, then I use a cloth pad liberally wetted with linseed to which I add 2 drops of white shellac direct onto the cloths (out of date stuff is fine and is a good use of this) and wipe then rub on a coat with that. As soon as that is dry I repeat with the linseed oil cloth pad plus 4 drops of shellac. If the handles ever look dry I repeat the final step. The resulting finish has a real nice feel to it.

I have seen knife handles finished with everything under the sun. For wood, plain mineral oil works just fine. BLO is very good and preferred by many. I would suggest the wood be stabilized before you make the handles. Then they would need no finishing ever.

The stabilized wood is wood that has been impregnated with some resin. That makes it impervious to most solvents and may harden the wood to some degree. It works somewhere between wood and plastic.
As for woods that need no finish, in general the oily, dense woods are the ones that don't need further protection. Lignum vitae is probably the best wood so far as not needing a finish. Members of the rosewood family are also in the group. There isn't much local to me (middle of the U.S.), but some of the Australian woods may not need finish.
There are also makers who finish with cyanoacrylate glues.

If you go with oil, I'd stick with a curing oil (linseed, tung not mineral or many vegetable oils). And I'd apply a coat of oil once a year for a few years.

ron

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Originally Posted by son_of_bluegras

There are also makers who finish with cyanoacrylate glues

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Or epoxy, both my boys have made knife handles and sealed them with epoxy. Needs a good sand but then it can be polished to a glass like finish. I use the thin stuff by West Systems. It does depend a lot on the timber you use. Mulga needs a lot less care than Cypress Pine for example.

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Originally Posted by Hop Thief

It'll be an outdoors knife. So it'll deffinitly have to be as water-proof as I can get it. Blood and fishgut-proof would be nice too, but I think water proof is the main concern. I don't want the wood to swell once it's on the handle.

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Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Or epoxy, both my boys have made knife handles and sealed them with epoxy. Needs a good sand but then it can be polished to a glass like finish. I use the thin stuff by West Systems. It does depend a lot on the timber you use. Mulga needs a lot less care than Cypress Pine for example.

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Just what ya need on a blade eh . A handle so smooth that it has no grip , and when ya hands are slimy with blood and guts , ya end up like the baby that played with the cut throat razor :o


Glass finish is not the one for a hunting knife Sebastian :U

China: What does wood that has a patina on it look like? Darker I assume. Darker is a good thing in my book. Metal patinas look good and are also useful for rust prevention so the wood patina effect interests me !

BobL: How long is long concerning the drying of raw linseed oil? I can be fairly patient and if it means I don't have to carry extra products (for future applications) then I'm willing to wait for it to dry naturally. I read somewhere it can take weeks to dry naturally, is that the case?

Rifleman1776 & son of bluegrass: How does one stabilise wood? Does it require special equipment or can I do it myself?

son of bluegras: I'll have to do some research on local timbers ! Also I'll deffinitly take your advice on yearly coats, which rules out the use of wax. I assume the wax would prevent future coasts of oil.

Sebastiaan: I'm pleased to hear you're teaching your sons the importance of knives. Too many people are scared of knives these days, a knife is not a murderous object, it's a vital tool for life.

Thankyou for all the replies by the way, they're very educational ! :2tsup:

Good robust discussion! My take on it is how the handle parts (scales) are attached to the tang. If they are relying on rivets or bolts etc, any finish is not going to affect the bond, so oil etc is ok. If you are glueing the scales on, like epoxy, any oil finish will affect the bond on the timber, in addition to the nature of the timber. In that case epoxy finish would suit.
I'm looking forward to photos of the finished item!

Cheers

son of bluegrass, actually making the stabilizing solution requires the use of solvents. Keep stabilized wood items away from solvents or you will have a mess.

Hop thief, I'm sure you can do it yourself. But, it does require some special equipment. Basically, you need a vacuum pump and a sealed chamber. My chamber is an old paint pot, about a 4 gallon size. My forumla is simple, plexiglas scrap dissolved in Acetone or MEC. The solution is somewhat expensive as my Acetone costs $15.00 a gallon and I need about two in the pot at all times. I am fortunate, very fortunate, to have a source of free plexiglass. There are many forumlas and some commercial products available for stabilizing.
There is a forum for stabilizers and caster on the pen turning forum International Association of Penturners a/ka/ IAP.
Stabilizing wood can turn scrap and/or otherwise undesirable wood into something useful and, often, beautiful.

Soaking the dry wood in hot linseed oil stabilises it .
The oil drives out and replaces the air and moisture , thus it is stabilised :2tsup:

It can even be done with wet green wood , by putting the wood in cold oil and bringing it up to boiling and then letting it cool.

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Originally Posted by Manuka Jock

Soaking the dry wood in hot linseed oil stabilises it .
The oil drives out and replaces the air and moisture , thus it is stabilised :2tsup:

It can even be done with wet green wood , by putting the wood in cold oil and bringing it up to boiling and then letting it cool.

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Manuka Jock, I won't debate definitions, some may agree with what you say.
The common definition of stabilizing, as I know it, is to soak, pressure or vacuum inpregnate with something that dries hard. It is often done on old or rotting wood to make workable, as in stabilized.

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Originally Posted by Rifleman1776

Manuka Jock, I won't debate definitions, some may agree with what you say.
The common definition of stabilizing, as I know it, is to soak, pressure or vacuum inpregnate with something that dries hard. It is often done on old or rotting wood to make workable, as in stabilized.

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Yes , I know that , I do that quite often with over spalted wood before I turn , it using a dilute polyurethane mix. .
That is also what happens with Raw linseed oil . The slight difference being that it does not dry overnight.

Wood stabilization is not something that has been invented since the coming of the modern chemical age Rifleman , it is as old as time :U.

I have to disagree that linseed oil will stabilize wood. I've done some testing and it just doesn't penetrate very far on its own. Under pressure (and maybe through heat) you can get deeper penetration, but it doesn't cure deeper than about 1/8 inch (a bit over 3 mm). The surface will cure and prevent oxygen from getting any deeper than that. That is plenty to protect the wood from water and the like (including blood and guts). I know this from cutting open test pieces.

As for the time it takes raw linseed oil to cure, that depends on temperature and humidity. Lower temps and higher humidity will slow down the curing of the oil You can speed the process by heating the oil before hand (from what I've read and seen, heat to around 175 F (80 C) for 1/2 hour) can speed the curing process. I've personally seen (smelt actually) raw, unheated oil take something over 4 weeks to cure. I say smelt because the oil will no longer feel oily but will not have completely cured if it still smells of oil. If you continue to apply coats while it still smells you can wind up with a gooey mess that needs to be removed and you start over.

If you thin the oil with turpentine or mineral spirits then the solvent will allow the penetration of oil though the wax to some extent. So wax doesn't necessarily preclude further oiling.

As for stabilizing wood, it can take special equipment but may not. There are commercially available wood stabilizing compounds that merely need soaking the wood in the solution. In hardware stores over here there are "wood hardeners" that do just that. They don't penetrate as far as can be got with vacuum pumps.
There is something referred to as PEG that is a compound used for stabilizing wood. I don't know how well it works. Or really anything else about it, just something I've read.
I haven't got a lot of experience with stabilized wood. I've used super glue to stabilize some small spots when turning and played with one scrap of professionally stabilized wood.


ron

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Originally Posted by son_of_bluegras

I have to disagree that linseed oil will stabilize wood. I've done some testing and it just doesn't penetrate very far on its own. Under pressure (and maybe through heat) you can get deeper penetration, but it doesn't cure deeper than about 1/8 inch (a bit over 3 mm). The surface will cure and prevent oxygen from getting any deeper than that. That is plenty to protect the wood from water and the like (including blood and guts). I know this from cutting open test pieces.

As for the time it takes raw linseed oil to cure, that depends on temperature and humidity. Lower temps and higher humidity will slow down the curing of the oil You can speed the process by heating the oil before hand (from what I've read and seen, heat to around 175 F (80 C) for 1/2 hour) can speed the curing process. I've personally seen (smelt actually) raw, unheated oil take something over 4 weeks to cure. I say smelt because the oil will no longer feel oily but will not have completely cured if it still smells of oil. If you continue to apply coats while it still smells you can wind up with a gooey mess that needs to be removed and you start over.
ron

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Ron, in reading through the thread from the start , you will see that I talking only about wood soaked in hot raw linseed oil . Not cold , not so called 'boiled' , not brushed , rubbed or wiped on .

Wood soaked in very hot raw linseed oil only.

cheers , Jock :)

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Originally Posted by Manuka Jock

Ron, if you read through the thread from the start , you will see that I talking only about wood soaked in hot raw linseed oil . Not cold , not so called 'boiled' , not brushed , rubbed or wiped on .

Wood soaked in very hot raw linseed oil only.

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Yes, I caught that.
My questions to you are have you ever cut open one of the pieces you soaked in hot oil? Do you know how much penetration you get? Is it fully cured to that depth?
I have cut open piece soaked in oil (though not hot oil). In my experience, the oil, even if it penetrates further, does not cure deeper than about 1/8 inch (about 3mm).
If you have cut open piece that you've soaked in hot oil, please let me know what your results are. I'm always looking for more information.

ron

Ron ,
Hoppy is talking about knife handle scales , I'm talking about food bowls .
How thick do you think those pieces of wood are ?
We ain't preparing bridge beams :U

Jock

Hello everyone,
While we are on the subject, how do you affix the tangs to the timber. Where do you get rivets from for those of you using rivets.
cheers
conwood

Conwood , you could use drawbore pegs

conwood: I've heard them called a few different names.
- Loveless bolts
- Corby bolts
- Birdseye bolts
- Fisheye bolts

I think they're all the same thing as each other, not sure though.

The British Blades forums is a wonderfull source of knife making knowledge. I came here because I thought it might be a more appropriate forum for woodtalk. Which it has definitely proven to be. I've learnt quite abit since the start of this topic.

I bought the bolts I'll be using with the blade so other than that I don't know where to buy the bolts. They'd be pretty basic to make if you had some bolt and nut diameter brass rod, the appropriate tap and die set and a little ability. But for the expense of the bolts it was way simpler for me to buy them with the blade so I suppose that is hardly useful advice, but if you happened to have all these things then that's how you'd get some... That's what I'd do if I needed a couple of extra ones anyhow.

But definitely check out british blades, they'll steer you in the right direction better than I could if you ask them a question.

Stabilised wood: The stabilising process sounds a little bit too involved for this project. I think I will go with the more rugged approach of using the oil, it sounds as though the oil will give the the desired finish with simple effort and a little follow up care which I am more than happy to apply.

All the same I am very thankful to have some understanding of what goes into stabilised wood and how it is made. It doesn't sound too tricky but it does sound like it's a little more of a modern finish than I desire. I may try that finish in the future though depending on how well the oil holds up to the test of time.

Manuka Jock: Those drawbore pegs sound like a clever idea, like a wooden version of split pins and such.

Yep , they are great eh.
Good for cabinet making , in mortise and tenon joints to draw the join tight .
One trick is to drill the tenon holes ( in the case of a blade tang and scales , it would be the scale holes ) slightly off center in opposite directions .
The pegs then work like crimps.
I used them once on a small cleaver handle , worked a treat

Here is a link to a blog about using them on a stool .

conwood look here Australasian Knife Collectors Club

Looking back on my post, I can see where I didn't emphasize that, with the exception of grapevine, the Maximum penetration of oil I've seen is about 1/8 inch (roughly 3 mm). That was in a piece of rather porous red oak (red oak here is a catch all term that includes many species of oak). On the grapevine, even though there was greater penetration, the oil didn't cure to a depth greater than about 1/8 inch (3 mm) after 4 or 5 months during the summer.
On the other wood I tested (black walnut, soft maple, other oaks and apricot) the penetration varied from too little to measure (on the apricot) to a bit under 1/16 inch (a bit over 1 mm) (on the black walnut).
As far as the thickness I think we're talking about, on the few pocket knives I've made the handle scales were 1/8 inch (3 mm), on the fixed blades I've made the handle scales ended up between 1/4 and 3/8 inch (6 to 10 mm).
On the bowls I've turned I go as thin as I feel comfortable. The thinnest bowl I've made approached 3/16 inch (4 or 5 mm). Many of them are thicker.
I full well expect, on woods commonly used for knife handles, that oil will not penetrate beyond 1 or 1.5 mm depth.
Again I ask if you've cut open test piece and have evidence of more penetration and curing at depth. If so I want to know. If there are methods that prove better than what I'm doing, I want to change so I can make the best stuff possible for me.
My posts are based on my experience and testing.

ron

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Originally Posted by son_of_bluegras

Looking back on my post, I can see where I didn't emphasize that, with the exception of grapevine, the Maximum penetration of oil I've seen is about 1/8 inch (roughly 3 mm). That was in a piece of rather porous red oak (red oak here is a catch all term that includes many species of oak). On the grapevine, even though there was greater penetration, the oil didn't cure to a depth greater than about 1/8 inch (3 mm) after 4 or 5 months during the summer.
On the other wood I tested (black walnut, soft maple, other oaks and apricot) the penetration varied from too little to measure (on the apricot) to a bit under 1/16 inch (a bit over 1 mm) (on the black walnut).
As far as the thickness I think we're talking about, on the few pocket knives I've made the handle scales were 1/8 inch (3 mm), on the fixed blades I've made the handle scales ended up between 1/4 and 3/8 inch (6 to 10 mm).
On the bowls I've turned I go as thin as I feel comfortable. The thinnest bowl I've made approached 3/16 inch (4 or 5 mm). Many of them are thicker.
I full well expect, on woods commonly used for knife handles, that oil will not penetrate beyond 1 or 1.5 mm depth.
Again I ask if you've cut open test piece and have evidence of more penetration and curing at depth. If so I want to know. If there are methods that prove better than what I'm doing, I want to change so I can make the best stuff possible for me.
My posts are based on my experience and testing.

ron

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Ron
This weird fixation of yours for maximin penetration of hot soaked linseed oil does not interest me .
If you want to know the answer to that , cut your own bowl open .
I have better things to do .

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Originally Posted by Manuka Jock

Ron
This weird fixation of yours for maximin penetration of hot soaked linseed oil does not interest me .
If you want to know the answer to that , cut your own bowl open .
I have better things to do .

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I'm not fixated on it. You've made a claim that I refute and you come across as if I'm wrong. I've backed what I've said with my experiences and testing. I'm just asking you to do the same instead of relying on theory.
Without further evidence I'm quite satisfied with the surface protection I've seen with linseed oil. And I stand by my claim that linseed oil does not stabilize wood, it is a surface treatment only.

If you aren't interested in knowing just how much protection your hot oil provides your bowls, so be it. I wanted to know what kind of protection my methods provide. This way if someone is interested in buying something I've made and has questions I can feel confident my answers are correct based on my experiences and testing.

ron

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Originally Posted by son_of_bluegras

I'm not fixated on it. You've made a claim that I refute
ron

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What claim ?

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Originally Posted by Manuka Jock

What claim ?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manuka Jock

Soaking the dry wood in hot linseed oil stabilises it .
The oil drives out and replaces the air and moisture , thus it is stabilised

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That sounds like a claim to me.
In the circles I run, people think of stabilized wood as wood that has has some material impregnated with something to prevent or minimize movement and/or halt or prevent decay. In my experience linseed oil does neither. What is does is minimize the movement of water which makes it difficult for the organisms that cause decay to become established. From my experience it does that adequately enough to continue using it. Even recommend it for some applications.

At this point, it looks like you are not going to offer support for your position so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

ron

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Originally Posted by son_of_bluegras

That sounds like a claim to me.
In the circles I run, people think of stabilized wood as wood that has has some material impregnated with something to prevent or minimize movement and/or halt or prevent decay. In my experience linseed oil does neither. What is does is minimize the movement of water which makes it difficult for the organisms that cause decay to become established. From my experience it does that adequately enough to continue using it. Even recommend it for some applications.

At this point, it looks like you are not going to offer support for your position so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

ron

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What exactly is your experience son_of_bluegras ?
How much actual plunging wood into extremely hot linseed oil and leaving it there until all the air and moisture has been driven out , displaced by the extremely hot linseed oil , until the bubbles stop , until the wood is totality impregnated with the oil have you done ?
Enlighten us with the wealth of your knowledge from your practical work in this field.
If you have not done any practical , and note that I used the word practical , and not the word theoretical , work in this field , by what right do you challenge me and mine ?.

And as for this

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At this point, it looks like you are not going to offer support for your position so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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What 'support' will ever be enough to satisfy you and the circles you are runing around in ?
Apart from ring fencing the definition of wood stabilisation to suit yourself what contribution have you made to this thread ?
Hop Thief is wanting assistance with natural , non synthetic ways of stabilizing the wood for his knife handle .
Given that you do not have anything to offer , why are you here , other than to act the troll ?

son_of_bluegras , if you want to extol the merits of chemical wood treatments , why don't you go away and start a thread on the subject , and then you will not have to be a nuisance on this one .