Election

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how are people being "penalised" if they dont get benefits they did'nt work for?

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The person next to you could be being paid less than you, or have less sick leave, or not be allowed to eat in the lunch room simply because they are not a member of the union - that is the penalty you're suggesting. This is why I believe that the function of unions would be better performed by an independent organisation funded by the government that works for better conditions for ALL employees, not just 'the membership'. Sort of like the Arbitration Commission is supposed to be.

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these unions became corrupt but even still they did a lot of good.

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No argument there. The first part is what a lot of us are saying is wrong with the union movement - what happens when they get too much power.

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you still havent addressed the women in the workforce issue?

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I have no experience on which to draw, so not really any comment I can give. But I thought we had an Equal Opportunity commission for that.

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to promote a deliberate fear among contractors that if they strir the pot too much, there wont be renewed is entirely another.

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I don't follow - are you saying you were deliberately not paid in an effort to frighten you, or are you making a different point?

2000 new jobs? Did anyone ask where these people will come from in todays "full employment" environment? Most likely they will recruit from overseas anyway. :shrug:

Unions have depended on special conditions under the law as long as they have been going. Right to entry, right to negotiate regardless or whether the individual wanted it or not and so on. Their campaign about work choices was basically about this. Being all for individual liberty I disagree with the Unions demands.

However there are lots of things that go on in the workplace and regarding negotiations for a fair deal conditions etc surely a union would have a very good service to offer. The shame is they do not see themselves as being a service provider. Really the Unions have to bring themselves up to date with the modern day if they are going to survive.

As for the Rudd Government there are many challenges before it, many challenges in front of the Liberal party too. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Studley

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Originally Posted by astrid

. Ps my pay didnt come through this week, no explanation,one woman wasnt paid for 6 weeks because of an HR stuff up, one has been waiting for overtime money for 3 months.

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Is this because they are women :?

How does that work :?

Less ranting and more sense makin :wink: :D

I'll have a go at addressing the women in the workplace....

I believe we are all equal. No orwellian utopia where some are more equal than others.

The only difference between men and women is that women can have children. During this period there rights must be protected completely.

So entitlement to maternity leave, be it paid or unpaid, is a very important right and must be protected.

But other than that there should be no other rights than men.

Take family leave (school hols etc). This is not a female only issue. Men have just as much right to care for thier children as well as women. But this is not an employers issue.

Many women want thier cake and eat it too sadly. They want a career and to be a "mother" as well. Thats fine, but its hardly the employers problem is it? Imagine if men started carrying on like it...bloody country would stop in its tracks.

If a couple decide that both parents need to work then that is an issue for them not thier employer to deal with. My wife and I worked full time and raised 2 kids without the employer having to take pay for our decision.

Single mothers with children are a harder issue, but then again if there was a whole lot more shared custody of children both the father and mother could share the burden of care and work. But almost without exception, unless the mother is something off The Jerry Springer Show, the dad gets two days a fortnight. Hang on, thats not equal.

Equal rights totally IMO.

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Originally Posted by astrid

Please stop this hypocritical union bashing nonsense.
How many registered trade unions or associations are there in this country?
How many indulge in Thuggish standover tactics of workers or bosses?
How many registered business's are there?
How many indulge in thuggish standover tactics of their employees or those trying to represent them?
Ever heard of a lockout guys?
How many of the union bashers on this forum have at sometime in their lives taken advantage of the benefits won by fights that others paid for.
Or do you donate the dough to your favorite charity?

As for the decline in membership, I was the delegate for many years and had a very reasonable working relationship with boss, membership was at 67%. It was the young ones who never suffered unequal pay for women,
two min toilet breaks for pregnant women, ETC ETC that refused to join because and I quote "I'll get the benefits anyway".

Is there any wonder that there is a bitter feeling toward those who ride the backs of others work?

Maybe some of you are too blinkered to see that your being manipulated by the interests of business, or you may run a business too small to afford a fair deal to your employees. In which case get out and get a job , and I hope its in an industry with a decent (in all senses) Union .

Astrid:cool:

Phew that was a rant:U

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:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

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Originally Posted by astrid

Or the working conditions of overseas sailors befor the painters and dockers stepped in and refused to unload ships untill these conditions improved.

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That was the MUA not the painters and dockers , they don't unload ships
To put the painters and dockers in any good light indicates to me that you have never had any dealings with that union , they are one of the reasons we now have only a handfull of australian manned ships on the Australian Coast and not the 100 or so we did have :((

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Originally Posted by astrid

To really throw the cat amongst the pidgions lets look at conditions on building sites befor the BLF and Gallhager.

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Gallhager was put in to stop the Green Bans to make the union federal and remove the state controle to curb sharkey mundy who was one of the decent blokes and the reason much of sydneys heratige was saved Gallhager on the other hand showed himself as exactily what he was. :((

Thanks bob,
Astrid:B

Whatever, Ashore, my point is still that unions can do tremendously good things.

Astrid

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Originally Posted by astrid

my point is still that unions can do tremendously good things.

Astrid

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As previously stated, my only dealings with unions have been when they have tried to extort, blackmail and standover me, and when that didn't work they then made sure that the over award payment that I had negotiated was removed.:((

If that is your idea of doing a tremendously good thing, then you can have it...I want nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by astrid

Thanks bob,
Astrid:B

Whatever, Ashore, my point is still that unions can do tremendously good things.

Astrid

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Hmm. you would not be saying that Astrid if you had my experience with Unions.

They bloody mindedly destroyed my company in the 80's
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/a.../#commentsmore

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Originally Posted by astrid

Whatever, Ashore, my point is still that unions can do tremendously good things.
Astrid

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Whatever ... :? why not admit the two examples of unions doing good that you gave are possable two of the worst unions australia ever had to deal with
You say your point is that unions can do tremendously good things I would put it to you that in the past some unions have done tremendously good things when we lived in a diffrent era, and I for one are thankful for them, but we have progressed as a people and a nation the need of unions has decreased not gone completely by any means but decreased and surely we need to look at the present and the future and look not only at the old ways of doing things but give new ideas a try before saying we must go back to the way industrial relations were handled 30 - 40 - or more years ago.
Your pro union stance is just that yours and you have a right to it but please get your facts right and when you are wrong be big enough to admit it , and not with .."whatever" :no:

sorry, you are correct in saying it was mundy who was BLF boss and yes was a good bloke and did tremendous things.

and my understanding is that the MUA (a Union) assisted overseas sailor with the assisstance of the PDU who do unload containers and refused to do so until conditions were improved for your less fortunate brothers.

dont nit pick
astrid

PS a rather more current example is the ACTU V James Hardy
want to nit pick that one?

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Originally Posted by astrid

and my understanding is that the MUA (a Union) assisted overseas sailor with the assisstance of the PDU who do unload containers and refused to do so until conditions were improved for your less fortunate brothers.

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:?

Patricks wanted to bring in non-union labour (which as an employer, is their given right) who got paid better for various reasons and the MUA chucked a spit and said, "no you can't do that" and locked the place down. That about the guts of it Ashore?

For those who have lost businesses because of union action I am very sorry.
Actually this happened to my Dad (painter and sighnwriter) in the UK late sixties.
But he was grown up about it, conceded that his business was too small to be viable, Moved over here and landed me on you:U

He remained a Labour man all his life and pro Union.(mostly)

Astrid

ok you union bashing bums,
what about keeping a balanced discussion,
do some picking on the bum employers as well

It's all becoming clear :)

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do some picking on the bum employers as well

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Don't have any experiences to draw on. All of my employers have treated me well. I've been sacked once, but I deserved it. I've always had flexibility for personal business within the limits of employment requirements.

The only union I've ever been a member of was the FSU when I worked for Commonwealth Bank. When I joined, we had RDOs, paid overtime, 1 moving day per year, various discounts on bank services etc. By the time I left, all of that was gone. What was the point of being a member of the union?

Or perhaps Astrid thinks I didn't deserve to benefit from all those things anyway, since they had been fought for and won by members before my time.

silent,
maybe all those things went because the FSU is weak because people wont join.
Banking like Insurance tends to be a rather conservative industry.

Astrid:U

I think that's putting the cart before the horse. When I joined, Comm bank was still very much public service sector mentality despite privatisation and most of the employees were members - it was pretty much a given that you would join. I signed up because there were some benefits of membership, including cheap loans (which they got rid of) and a couple of other things.

The reason we lost all those things was because they had entered into an enterprise bargaining agreement and part of the deal for pay increases was to lose RDOs and some of the other benefits. I would have preferred the RDOs but no-one asked me - they negotiated them out of existence 'on my behalf'.

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Originally Posted by astrid

silent,
maybe all those things went because the FSU is weak because people wont join.
Banking like Insurance tends to be a rather conservative industry.

Astrid:U

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no its because the FSU is a puppet of the banks. dont ask me how I know, but lets just say I am the only one on my floor that still has RDO's (Long term employment with one employer has its perks)

Yeah Gra,
I was being kind.
Its a funny reflection but has anyone noticed that the nature of a Union, by which I mean how people perceive it, seems to be strongly influenced by the gender and/or the qualifications of the members of the industry.

"Thuggish" unions are full of macho bloky types ie dockers, building and dare I say it the police, "weak" Unions represent mainly female dominated industries ie retail and banking, "powerfull (but civilized) Nurses, Firefighters, teachers and public sector.

I wonder why this is?

Astrid:;

Hmm, if I was to make a distinction, it would based on level of education or something, not gender. I'm not sure any of those industries you mention, with the exception of nursing, could be said to be female dominated, but if you have figures that demonstrate it, I'm all eyes.

I think that the union 'thuggery' you saw in the more manual occupations was imported from the UK and Ireland, brought by the migrant workers who came over to work on building sites and at the docks.

so at home, lets look at bully employers

Telstra for example,
who despite the overwhelming community dissaisfaction with WPA's are forcing them through before they are overhauled in the interests of fair play

Don't they have a union?

Anyway we're getting a bit off topic here, although maybe we are now in post election mode.
Has Phil ruddock truely been kidnaped by the taliban?
Or is he so busy shredding stuff he cant take a tea break on his workchoices award.
Was peter really "all tip and no iceburg"?
Theres some good links on writing your first resume on MyCareer.com
Has Alexander run out of fishnets?
And poor old Tony is consoling "master"?
Joe is rewriting last weeks speech (still).
Julie is wondering if she can afford her Hex fees to get an education.
Mal is considering becoming a social worker to fullfil his sincere lifetime ambition to help abused children and women.

Have I missed anyone important?
Sorry I forgot Johnny

Asrid:U

Let's check back in 12 months time and see what they're saying about Kevin 07 and his mates (who are they again? Oh that's right, he's still deciding).

The honeymoon wont last forever. :)

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Originally Posted by silentC

Hmm, if I was to make a distinction, it would based on level of education or something, not gender. I'm not sure any of those industries you mention, with the exception of nursing, could be said to be female dominated, but if you have figures that demonstrate it, I'm all eyes.

I think that the union 'thuggery' you saw in the more manual occupations was imported from the UK and Ireland, brought by the migrant workers who came over to work on building sites and at the docks.

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I am with silent here, the banking/insurance industry is usually a highly educated area, and often very male dominated.

though retail would probablty fit your gender bias theory.

but as silent has said, the more militant factions were usually imported, though as I am typing this I seem to remember the shearers union, who started the union movement in australia tended to be a little "thugish", though that may be more a sign of the times than anything else.

Have you aslo noticed that the more militant union activity seems to be global, and may be more economically driven, if you look at the cycles of militancy you will find that it usually isnt just in one country but globally. (I could be talking out my .... here but just seems to be to me)

Chasers report,
Johnnys been running around with a lampshade for the last hour down at woolstonecroft, while J decides where to put it.
No the honeymoon wont last, but I'll enjoy it while it I can.

Astrid:U

Kevin 07...... Recession 08. !

G'day all,
A bit off topic , but back to water blasters, iIm looking for something suitable to clean that black crud (mould) off concrete driveways etc.
I hear GMC is good for the price and has metal bits in the pump, K'archer is dodgy at the lower price consumer level with plastic pumps, Bosch may be worth a look.
Went to my local Mitre10, and the bloke pushed the Gerni 120 onto me, about $299 I think, any testimonials welcome.
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Waldo

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Patricks wanted to bring in non-union labour (which as an employer, is their given right) who got paid better for various reasons and the MUA chucked a spit and said, "no you can't do that" and locked the place down. That about the guts of it Ashore?

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Yes waldo the MUA who actually load and unload ships , got to the point with wages and conditions that to move a container off a truck and onto a ship in Sydney or Melbourne cost more than to transport it and unload it in Europe or the states. :((

And Astrid I am not nit picking but I worked in the industry for over 30 years and had to deal with the Painters and Dockers who assist with lines when a ship is berthing or sailing , paint , clean, and remove scale rust etc do not unload or load cargo on ships, why do you have such a problem with just admitting your wrong. :no:

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Originally Posted by Ashore

Yes waldo the MUA who actually load and unload ships

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No problems Ashore, I stand corrected. :2tsup:

Because I worked at the waterside hotel, public Bar and I assumed that all the pilfered and usless objects the old blokes offered to their favorite barmaids , were out of the containers they were unloading/ storing ?
Maybe they traded with the MUA for cans of pilfered paint.
and i may have got the Unions mixed up but my point was that whichever one it was they used their power for the benifit of others.
As have the ACTU V Hardy and you still havent acknowledged that.

Lighten up, we all know the skallywags regarded it as a bit of a game with the bosses.
Its part of our graet Australian culture
Read "under the hook" by wendy lowensein I think
Astrid:U

Speaking of unions and politicians and lovely wharfs - what ever happened to dear Peter Rieth (SP?)

He was a nice chap I miss him.

Little Kev is taking legal advice on re-opening the AWB investigation & this time he wants it to include the polies...
I think he is hoping to bury/gaol half the Libs ex-ministers... :rolleyes:

That would be one way of getting rid of the remaining opposition. :D

If it happens, you can bet the cost of it will kill off half his promises. :cool:

He's already subtly dropped one: there will be no department of home land security.

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Originally Posted by astrid

Has Phil ruddock truely been kidnaped by the taliban?
Or is he so busy shredding stuff he cant take a tea break on his workchoices award.
:U

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One can only hope!
This useless waste of space is supposed to be my local member. Didn't see him before the elections, won't see him after.

He'll collect his fat salary for being an unornamental paperweight.

OH and i forgot the other Kev, wheres he?
checking his mobile phone records?

I may mixed up, but I think hes (Reith) enjoying the benefits of scuttling the republic.
and Amanda is trying to communicate in mandarin to the Italians.
actually I'll go a bit easier on Amanda, having to clean up after Ruddock was a bit like my housework, It keeps on comming.


Astrid:U

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Originally Posted by astrid

As have the ACTU V Hardy and you still havent acknowledged that.

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You bought this up late in the discussion in a vane attempt to cloud the issue, yes the actions of the ACTU v Hardey were good just as the work carried out by other unions and indivudials againt hardy was good , Hardies were criminal in trying to get away with what they did and the lies they told knowing full well the dangers and harm their products were causing , I worked in an industry that used a lot of asbestos , and have lost 3 mates I sailed with to it, we wern't told of the dangers by Hardies or the Ship owners who in some cases were aware of the dangers. my union along with other maratime unions made the ship owners set up a fund to cover medical tests costs etc and this was a flow on from the actions of the ACTU s work.

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Originally Posted by astrid

Lighten up, we all know the skallywags regarded it as a bit of a game with the bosses.
Its part of our graet Australian culture

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This is where we are fundermentally diffrent , I do not condone steeling , was brought up differently to that and being a thief is not part of my culture.
I can assure the bosses on the waterfront did not reguard it as a game, nor did the owners of goods stolen from containers :no:

And Astrid I will leave this discussion on unions by saying I do not disagree with you about the great things some unions have achieved in the past , our present culture , lifestyle etc has been infulenced by union actions, as it has been by past politions , buissness men and women , inventers , the climate, geographical location , migrants, etc etc it all adds to who we are the unions are part of this but not the only or best part just another part.:D

Ashore
If you read my posts with a different mindset, no I didnt

and of course they wouldnt' that was the "game"
like stealing wheelbarrows and we all know that story.
think its time to stop the Union stuff as its off topic, goes nowhere.
If you want to continue this then I suggest you start a separate thread and I'll see you there.

Astrid:q