Tax

I believe in collectives, I believe in mateship, I believe in people power & democracy, therefore I believe in true unionism but it must be voluntary.
(I too had my issues with the ole BLF, Dad was a builder, no ticket no job)

However how many of us enjoy the relatively good conditions of the modern workplace and rates of reimbursement without a thought to those who fought for these rights and conditions.

On the flip side of popularity, why when I have stood on a picket line and lost 2 weeks income, been ostracised by the companies involved, been involved in unnecessary physical conflict had the apologists for unsafe archiac behaviours/practise slander us, then have those whom sacrificed nothing, not thier promotion opportunity, not pay, yet still enjoyed what We fought for....I'll tell you why because that is plain old right whether or not they are willing to stand up for themselves, we will anyway and not begrudge them as in the end it's for the better.

Ask yourself
Is it right?
Am I proud of my actions?
If it is my last action would I like to be remembered for it?
Is it for the greater good?


Bruce C.
Ethical actions & morality are not ambiguious they just get clouded by greed.

As an 'bean counter' who studied at TAFE, our favourite saying was always:
"An accountant from Uni, can write a 5000 word essay on "what is an Asset", whereas an accountaint from the TAFE, can actually do a bank reconciliation, reconcile debtors & creditors and produce P&L and Balance Sheets"

Maybe the relevance of what is being taught should be questioned

Bruce,
like you, I believe that without unions many would not enjoy the conditions they do now. If there's one thing unions have done in building is make it a safer business. But I just can't stand compulsory anything! I'll fight tooth and nail not to do something if I'm forced to do it, when if asked, I would probablty be happy to do it. I guess I'm in then minority in that I've got the negotiation skills and the cheek to get more when I believe I'm entitled to it. Having skills someone wants helps also. The other thing I don't like about unionism is that it gives everyone the same monetary value. If I'm more productive, can work unsupervised, always turn up on time and have every bit of gear required for the job then I reckon I'm worth more than the bloke next to me who turns up hungover and late most mornings, slacks off at every opportunity and whose toolkit consists of a ripped old nailbag with a hammer and a blunt chisel (this is a true and accurate description of the deadbeat I was assigned to work with on the casino, I had to lend him a pencil and we were both clearing around 1500 a week)

Mick

Agreed Mick, those types of people are everywhere, they probably don't deserve our efforts but they recieve them anyway, its' a sort of karma they never seem to last anyway, sure a few do prosper enough to P!ss us off, but not lot of them on a whole, and on the way we help those who need the "mouthpiece" we can offer. That cheek and brazenism you allude to, yep I know it, many of us with the "gift' (yeah like my "gift" hasn't got my nose broken more than once)of the gab use it for ourselves and sometimes even to help those who deserve a hand on up to our level.

Never have believed in compulsory unionism it's bad for the cause anyway, sorta like communism is bad news for socialists. ;)

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Originally Posted by javali

One of the greatest misconceptions about unis is that their main purpose is to provide a profession. The main purpose a university has is to do research.

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So we teach sorry research all out Nurses, Doctors, School Teachers, Lawyers, Engineers, etc
and then let them loose to learn on us to become what they already have written qualifications for and are paid for .
I never understood that before thanks

journeyman Mick
I agree with your views. When working at sea I was always a member and supporter of the union but by choice. I went to all the meetings and had my say put foward my thoughts and at times changed policy
Unionism works if democratic, and this country would not be the greatest place to live without unions but the whole consept of compulsory unions with no choice goes against everything I have ever believed .




The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

The solution is easy don't pay student union fees but remember to get a list of all sevices, notice boards, pamphlets, library books, free entertainment etc, so you can't be accused of sponging off people who contribute.
Don't join an industrial union but make sure that you give back any wage rise that is negotiated by a union because you are just sponging off other people.
If you work on a very dangerous building site and the union negotiates with the employer to implement safety proceedures, make sure you use the old unsafe proceedures. If you fall of a roof and survive don't go whining to the local union rep for help. Get a lawyer and pay for it yourself.
If you have a rostered day off that was negotiated by a union then if you have any moral fibre at all you will work a 40hour 5day week, work for a flat rate on weekends - no penalty rates or time and a half or double time.

I had to attend court once when someone was caught rorting the system via the computer system, I was a prosecution witness in the case as were several of my colleagues.
When we had out day in court the union reps were there harassing every witness for the prosecution.
It was that day that I lost any interest in unions who are prepared to use my money to harass anyone who is called upon to give evidence in a court of law, the defendant was found guilty and we still received union abuse for
setting him up etc (which we didn't).
It bothers me that they are prepared to extend their support in case like this to harrassment as well as funding a defence brief.

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Originally Posted by Iain

I had to attend court once when someone was caught rorting the system via the computer system, I was a prosecution witness in the case as were several of my colleagues.
When we had out day in court the union reps were there harassing every witness for the prosecution.
It was that day that I lost any interest in unions who are prepared to use my money to harass anyone who is called upon to give evidence in a court of law, the defendant was found guilty and we still received union abuse for
setting him up etc (which we didn't).
It bothers me that they are prepared to extend their support in case like this to harrassment as well as funding a defence brief.

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There are criminals in every organisation. Just look at the number of politicians, police, doctors, judges etc who have been criminally prosecuted over the years. Unions don't have a monopoly on intimidation. You might find that there are a lot more people being threatened and intimidated by their employers than unions and ask anyone who has served in the armed forces what threats and intimidation are all about.

Heres an idea for a completely radical new tax system. When you get youre tax assesment from the ATO you get three choices of method of payment:

1. pay the tax to the ATO OR
2. pay it to a worthy charity.
3. if youre a Woodie pay it to .

Of course there will be a few minor problems with this new system.... the ATOs tax harvest would drop to zero overnight and Politicians would have to suddenly consider the horrendous prospect of having to fund their own retirement.

I don't know why we just don't do away with government altogether and go back to the feudal system. It was so much easier then. Everyone was a peasant except for the local laird. You all worked for him and he provided protection from roving bands of robbers and neighbouring fiefdoms in return for all of your money and the first refusal on a shag with your missus on the wedding night. Small price to pay for a warm pile of hay and fresh rags to wear every other year.

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Originally Posted by adrian

ask anyone who has served in the armed forces what threats and intimidation are all about.

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You won't find many threats or intimidation in the Army these days.
I just left after 11 years and part of the reason was that I found the whole organisation (term used loosely) was becoming to soft, touchly feely, in touch with emotions etc.

The Army is a completely different environment to most other workplaces which needs to have a bit of fear and intimidation.

The idea as a leader (in the Army) is to have your soldiers more scared of you than the person shooting at them! That way when the poo hits the fan you know they will do what is necessary and what they are told!!!

How is someone who can't handle being yelled at going to handle someone trying to kill him?

Jack.

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Originally Posted by E. maculata

"I hereby agree that If I wish to enjoy the trappings of success in my life, I will as a human being also agree to helping a few of the less fortunate, it's only a few dollars after all.

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Bruce,

If you can see $30000 as only a few dollars then good luck to you!!!

Jack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashore

So we teach sorry research all out Nurses, Doctors, School Teachers, Lawyers, Engineers, etc
and then let them loose to learn on us to become what they already have written qualifications for and are paid for .
I never understood that before thanks

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That is exactly how it works.

Cast your mind back to when you graduated from uni. Were the next two years the biggest learning experience of your life (apart from this forum of course)?

Jack.

I think that ALL income tax should be abolished and the GST set at 20% instead.
Every time that Packer buys a bottle of imported French bubbly he would be paying tax on it. Every time he bought another gold back scratcher he would pay tax on it. No matter what he bought, shares, holidays, took money out of the country, meat, another wife, he would have to pay tax on it the same as the rest of us but, because his expectations are somewhat higher than most pf the proletariat he would pay far more than we would.

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Originally Posted by javali

One of the greatest misconceptions about unis is that their main purpose is to provide a profession. The main purpose a university has is to do research. Teaching exists only for training researchers, and for funding. Universities are not supposed to give a profession. TAFE or apprenticeship are much better at that. This is the main reason that those professions that do require uni education also require an internship period. Uni education only provides the background knowledge. The internship provides the profession.

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If unis are mainly for research, then the Govt is better off putting money into CSIRO or funding private R and D companies. At least all the money will go directly into research without some being siphoned off to provide teaching... :rolleyes:

Seriously through, If I am paying mega-bucks for a degree (or background knowledge), then the least I would expect is decent teaching! If unis are only providing teaching as a sideline to their main business, then they ought to hire some lecturers to do the teaching fulltime and let the rest of their staff get back to doing their research. That way you are getting taught by someone who cares, rather than someone who views lectures as an interuption to their PhD research.

Some of the research being done in universities is of such dubious value to society that I can't believe the Govt is funding it.