there is no hope for the young poeple

Very interesting. The posts by Alex, Ron, BigShed and WoodBorer are widely different in approach and could be vehemently opposed by each other, but all make good points. Let's take all those points as true, with some latitude of interpretation. What then? All the following is only MHO, of course.

- Kids are not more stupid than before. Even assuming that the human brain itself has not evolved much from the times of Plato, better nutrition and enormous expansion of access to information would point to improvement. Too bad for those who live too close to a lead smelter, progress has its victims, has it not?

- What is important to learn has changed dramatically and the exponential increase of knowledge requires our relatively unchanged brain to deal with it much more selectively than in the relatively simpler earlier times of learning some standard crap by rote. Don't they say that medical knowledge is now doubling every five years? Teaching to think is the key, and at least now this is recognised, although getting from the principle to the practice is still difficult.

One problem is that Australia is caught in a time warp. Up to 30-40 years ago it was not that important, life in the colonies was simpler. Until 1948 If you wanted a PhD you went back to Mother England to get it. Now that the world has became smaller, distance is not a "tyranny" any more, but it is not a protection either: being 10 year behind the leading edge is now an obvious problem. The fact that some bright people are at the leading edge in some particular field does not disprove the general statement.

The bottom line is in the old saying that those who know how, do it; whose who know a little, write about it; those who know **** all, teach it. The little truth behind the joke is valid everywhere, but it is magnified here because it is enshrined in the education system. Those too educationally challenged to get the marks for enrolling in a course leading to a profession can scrape enough marks to enrol in a teaching degree. Furthermore, while in continental Europe for the past 50 years people teaching academic subjects to children older than 12 had to be "lecturers" with a masters degree in the subject they teach, here they are "teachers" who are supposed to know how to "teach" anything from finger painting to calculus, with the obvious results. In this respect the excuse of isolation and distance is still invoked. The obvious answer is to use electronic media for the lectures, retrain some teachers to guide the process to maximise the effectiveness for each student and sack the others, but the profession closes ranks to protect its incompetence, wouldn't they all?

Over.

Some interesting comments there F&E.

I think you will find in the case of Alex and myself that we took up teaching after semi-retiring which in our case negates your point about those who don't know teach.

The education system like many government and private organisations rewards those who are skilled at their job by removing them from that job in the case of promotions. For example, principals are paid more than class room teachers. Principals are heavily into administration, politics and managing. If you are a good classroom teacher but would like more $'s then in most cases you have to leave the classroom and work in an office!

Those who are good in industry are strongly dissuaded from becoming teachers. For example, you immediately drop pay and sign an agreement to accept any posting within the state on completion of your teaching qualification. That's what I was told by the Victorian Education Dept in the 80's when I made enquiries.

I don't agree with electronic lectures on the basis there is little to no feedback between the person delivering the lecture and the student. It becomes obvious whether or not your message is hitting the spot when you are face to face enabling you to change tactics and or pace in either a positive or negative direction.

I don't agree on the idea of necessarily having extremely highly qualified teachers. Good teachers are good teachers and poor ones are poor no matter what their qualifications. It's about communication I feel.

There are some quite complex concepts that I have learned brilliantly from people with very few qualifications and I have sat in lectures and not taken in anything from people with alphabets behind their names and of course the opposite. In other words I feel there are natural good teachers.

Poor outcomes with many students can be traced back to their upbringing rather than their standard of education.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

Very interesting. The posts by Alex, Ron, BigShed and WoodBorer are widely different in approach and could be vehemently opposed by each other, but all make good points. Let's take all those points as true, with some latitude of interpretation. What then? All the following is only MHO, of course.

- Kids are not more stupid than before. Even assuming that the human brain itself has not evolved much from the times of Plato, better nutrition and enormous expansion of access to information would point to improvement. Too bad for those who live too close to a lead smelter, progress has its victims, has it not?

- What is important to learn has changed dramatically and the exponential increase of knowledge requires our relatively unchanged brain to deal with it much more selectively than in the relatively simpler earlier times of learning some standard crap by rote. Don't they say that medical knowledge is now doubling every five years? Teaching to think is the key, and at least now this is recognised, although getting from the principle to the practice is still difficult.

One problem is that Australia is caught in a time warp. Up to 30-40 years ago it was not that important, life in the colonies was simpler. Until 1948 If you wanted a PhD you went back to Mother England to get it. Now that the world has became smaller, distance is not a "tyranny" any more, but it is not a protection either: being 10 year behind the leading edge is now an obvious problem. The fact that some bright people are at the leading edge in some particular field does not disprove the general statement.

The bottom line is in the old saying that those who know how, do it; whose who know a little, write about it; those who know **** all, teach it. The little truth behind the joke is valid everywhere, but it is magnified here because it is enshrined in the education system. Those too educationally challenged to get the marks for enrolling in a course leading to a profession can scrape enough marks to enrol in a teaching degree. Furthermore, while in continental Europe for the past 50 years people teaching academic subjects to children older than 12 had to be "lecturers" with a masters degree in the subject they teach, here they are "teachers" who are supposed to know how to "teach" anything from finger painting to calculus, with the obvious results. In this respect the excuse of isolation and distance is still invoked. The obvious answer is to use electronic media for the lectures, retrain some teachers to guide the process to maximise the effectiveness for each student and sack the others, but the profession closes ranks to protect its incompetence, wouldn't they all?

Over.

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you are a hard man frank
Teenagers don't just need to learn at school ,schools play main function in this going stage
Humans a pack animal YES or NO schools have to manage this in a positive way ,they may not listen but they are always watching .Roll modeling that's what teacher should be, teenagers should be exposed to as many good roll models as possible, peers and adults .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wood Borer

Some interesting comments there F&E.

I think you will find in the case of Alex and myself that we took up teaching after semi-retiring which in our case negates your point about those who don't know teach.

The education system like many government and private organisations rewards those who are skilled at their job by removing them from that job in the case of promotions. For example, principals are paid more than class room teachers. Principals are heavily into administration, politics and managing. If you are a good classroom teacher but would like more $'s then in most cases you have to leave the classroom and work in an office!

Those who are good in industry are strongly dissuaded from becoming teachers. For example, you immediately drop pay and sign an agreement to accept any posting within the state on completion of your teaching qualification. That's what I was told by the Victorian Education Dept in the 80's when I made enquiries.

I don't agree with electronic lectures on the basis there is little to no feedback between the person delivering the lecture and the student. It becomes obvious whether or not your message is hitting the spot when you are face to face enabling you to change tactics and or pace in either a positive or negative direction.

I don't agree on the idea of necessarily having extremely highly qualified teachers. Good teachers are good teachers and poor ones are poor no matter what their qualifications. It's about communication I feel.

There are some quite complex concepts that I have learned brilliantly from people with very few qualifications and I have sat in lectures and not taken in anything from people with alphabets behind their names and of course the opposite. In other words I feel there are natural good teachers.

Poor outcomes with many students can be traced back to their upbringing rather than their standard of education.

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can l ask a question
how can the schools or will the school do something different stop the flow of students slipping though the system and getting lost

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ron Dunn

Alex, how do you explain the fact that every university decries the numeracy and literacy skills of current entrants? Why are some universities discussing remedial summer classes for new enrolments?Universities always have and always will complain about the literacy & numeracy skills of their current entrants. Today, they have some justification. A higher proportion of students than ever before are going to Uni, including, probably, a number who shouldn't be going to uni. Also, today, we have more students than ever for whom English is a 2nd language. You'd have to expect their English literacy to be a little below par.

Have you seen the way these kids write? No longer is a pen (or pencil) a tool of finesse - but a blunt instrument bludgeoned around the page. They're taught to hold a pen like a cockatoo clutches a perch! And when it comes to a slide rule, why goodness gracious. They don't even know how it works! On the other hand, they can usually use a calculator or keyboard much more efficiently than us old pharts.

I was in Vietnam a couple of weeks ago, and visited my wife's niece's school. I was blown away by the relative beauty of the script I saw being taught and used - it reminded me of the way my Great Aunts used to write.Very nice, but is it relevant to Australian children?

... I'd also love the chance to try some basic arithmetic from the same period, WITHOUT giving the little darlings access to their calculators, PDAs or handphones. Why? These are the tools they have. When I trained, we wasted hours doing calcs with 7 & 13 figure logs, and a surveyor from the Roman or Egyption empires probably would have said we had it easy because we didn't have to do the calcs longhand.
Who designed these high-tech calculators, phones & software? In most cases, it's people younger than you & me, and you don't design these things without a good knowledge of maths & science.

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WB & Spirit have addressed some of the other issues more eloquently than I could.

Thanks Wood Borer. I see that we agree on two integral weaknesses of the system, the application of Peter's principle (everybody is promoted to his/her level of incompetence) and that "Those who are good in industry are strongly dissuaded from becoming teachers". For these very reasons, however, I am sure you would accept me saying, with all respect, that "I think you will find in the case of Alex and myself that we took up teaching after semi-retiring which in our case negates your point about those who don't know teach." is a non sequitur. It might, but not necessarily does, negate it.

You say that you do not agree with my proposed solution, but I actually agree with what you give as reasons for not agreeing: only, it appears that you do not see how these obstacles can be overcome and cling to them to resist change, which is of course consistent with the need for self preservation of the profession.

"I don't agree with electronic lectures on the basis there is little to no feedback between the person delivering the lecture and the student. It becomes obvious whether or not your message is hitting the spot when you are face to face enabling you to change tactics and or pace in either a positive or negative direction.
...
I don't agree on the idea of necessarily having extremely highly qualified teachers. Good teachers are good teachers and poor ones are poor no matter what their qualifications. It's about communication I feel."

This is what I meant by saying that some of the teachers should be retrained to "guide the process to maximise the effectiveness for each student", while electronic lectures (replacing the masters degrees of 50 years ago) guarantee the technical competence that many teachers do not possess: there is still room for teaching skills.

One obvious example is the teaching of languages. A teacher with pronunciation weaknesses is bound to pass on these weaknesses to his/her students. But if the students hear from a tape the "correct" (whatever that is agreed to be) pronunciation, the teacher can concentrate on managing the learning process.

F&E,

I think all our views have some degree of similarity, we have identified similar negative issues and we have all presented solutions.

Why have we come up with different solutions? I think we might be influenced by our individual life experiences and learning styles.

For example, my preferred learning style is using basic concepts rather than parrot fashion learning and so I teach using that style.

For example, it is merely coincidental that I happen to know the formula for the volume of a sphere. It is merely coincidental that I know the value of phi. Using basic concepts, I can quickly derive both along with the formula for the volume of many other solids and their variations using basic principles.

I don't need to remember the formulae for the gain of common transistor circuits or op amp circuits, I don't need to remember the formulae for motion. Using basic concepts I can derive these using a stick in the sand on a beach.

I don't need to remember the circuit diagram for two switches controlling one light - I can derive these from basic principles be it two switches or more.

I apply the same principles to designing woodwork joints and pieces of furniture. The only plans I follow are my own and they are again based on sound basic principles.

I know this style frustrates some of my students as they place more emphasis on the result rather than the method of solution.

One of your points I don't understand is the comment about

Quote:

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"I think you will find in the case of Alex and myself that we took up teaching after semi-retiring which in our case negates your point about those who don't know teach." is a non sequitur. It might, but not necessarily does, negate it.

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Speaking for myself, I don't feel I am teaching because I am useless writing about or professionally putting the subjects I teach into practice. I am semi retired and I thoroughly enjoy sharing with others my experiences and skills. Financially I don't need to teach at all.

I know AlexS quite well despite being in different states and I feel his views will be similar.

I am sure I have misinterpreted your point.

Mention was made of slide rules. It was only last week that I took one of my old slide rules into one of my woodwork classes that I conduct for year 7's at a local school. They were intrigued and fascinated that such a device existed let alone the functions it performed. It is currently on loan to the school.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wood Borer

One of your points I don't understand is the comment about

"I think you will find in the case of Alex and myself that we took up teaching after semi-retiring which in our case negates your point about those who don't know teach." is a non sequitur. It might, but not necessarily does, negate it.

Speaking for myself, I don't feel I am teaching because I am useless writing about or professionally putting the subjects I teach into practice. I am semi retired and I thoroughly enjoy sharing with others my experiences and skills. Financially I don't need to teach at all.

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My apologies for not having been clearer. As you said, communication is much easier face to face... :)

All I was trying to convey is that it is a logic fallacy to say that because a couple of people who have semi-retired into teaching are competent in the area they teach, all those who semi-retire into teaching are competent in the area they teach. You might know yourself people who have lost their job in middle age for not having kept up to date in their profession and have found a job in teaching, for which they end up not even having the necessary enthusiasm. Besides, there is no guarantee that a semi-retired mathematician who today teaches calculus admirably will not be asked tomorrow to teach finger painting and, much more unfortunately, viceversa. Which is bad enough in primary school, but IMHO criminal at high school level.
.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

My apologies for not having been clearer. As you said, communication is much easier face to face... :)

All I was trying to convey is that it is a logic fallacy to say that because a couple of people who have semi-retired into teaching are competent in the area they teach, all those who semi-retire into teaching are competent in the area they teach. You might know yourself people who have lost their job in middle age for not having kept up to date in their profession and have found a job in teaching, for which they end up not even having the necessary enthusiasm. Besides, there is no guarantee that a semi-retired mathematician who today teaches calculus admirably will not be asked tomorrow to teach finger painting and, much more unfortunately, viceversa. Which is bad enough in primary school, but IMHO criminal at high school level.
.

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with your finger painting to vce maths point is just a bit of grandstanding frank only history teachers do finger painting as a second subject :U
schools are a business now they don't put people to far from their field

most of the time teacher subject stays the same only the year level changes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wood Borer

I know AlexS quite well despite being in different states and I feel his views will be similar.
They are.

Mention was made of slide rules. It was only last week that I took one of my old slide rules into one of my woodwork classes that I conduct for year 7's at a local school. They were intrigued and fascinated that such a device existed let alone the functions it performed. It is currently on loan to the school....in their ancient history museum:D

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...but did they understand (or could they work out) why it worked?

This discussion has moved on quite a bit from the original topic, which was how hopeless or otherwise today's youth are.
My experience of school teachers is that they are not much different to what they were 50 years ago - a few are hopeless and should find another job, most are quite competent, and a few are inspiring. It would be a big step forward if the best teachers were able to get pay increases as recognition of their teaching ability, without having to go into administration.
I'd also like to see teachers have to work somewhere else before going into a classroom. When I was at school, a couple of the maths teachers had been WWII bomber navigators - they could certainly make maths more interesting. Another good science teacher whom I knew at uni had left school at 16, had 3 kids and only ever worked as a barmaid or waitress until
she went to uni in her late 30s. After she graduated, she worked in the lab at Cascade brewery, and had another baby, before becoming a teacher because of the more friendly hours. That sort of experience doesn't guarantee that someone will be a good teacher, but it sure helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SPIRIT

with your finger painting to vce maths point is just a bit of grandstanding frank only history teachers do finger painting as a second subject :U
schools are a business now they don't put people to far from their field

most of the time teacher subject stays the same only the year level changes

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Wish you were right Arty, but being a business makes things worse, not better. When an organisation is motivated by money (profit or funding, whatever) it tends to close one eye or both about principles. Look at what has happened with banks becoming loan sharks, we all got royally screwed.

Alex,

I am taking these kids primarily for woodwork but I have included all sorts of other topics and related them back to woodwork in most cases. This approach is actively encouraged by the school.

The kids haven't studied logarithms yet however I will briefly enlighten them this week. We will probably make simple slide rules this week in between doing their main woodwork project.

The kids are quite hungry for information including solving riddles and puzzles. It is very refreshing to see their enthusiasm and enquiring minds on such a wide range of topics.

F&E,

I agree with you in the case of where people are teaching fundamentally for an income with their passion for teaching as a bonus if it exists at all.

Your example of someone who has been retrenched from an industry teaching almost irrelevant technology happens all too often or they are teaching topics of which they have very little knowledge themselves.

What can be done about it? For fast moving technologies, perhaps they need to teach part time and work at the cutting edge in that industry part time.

For less progressive industries that probably wouldn't be necessary but regular updates would be good.

As indicated earlier though I know of several people who are highly regarded internationally in their field but have difficulty sharing their knowledge. Some of them would be flat out teaching a fly to buzz.

Others who are far less brilliant in their field can convey ideas and concepts to learners very sweetly and efficiently, they were born teachers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wood Borer

...
What can be done about it? For fast moving technologies, perhaps they need to teach part time and work at the cutting edge in that industry part time.

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Only a few days' lapse, and I'm in the same boat. This one caught me up for comment.

Adjunct professorships exist for this very reason. According to my very imperfect understanding, some medical schools and law schools require at least a few professors to actually practise their craft. In my uni experience in engineering many years ago, most of the professors had no such practise, or had long ago left such practise. Graduates were great at research and development, using the latest analysis tools, but didn't know what constituted good construction plans. A similar remark came from an architect I recently met. In my engineering practise, I often had to re-work details cooked up by people who had never even built a bookcase made from orange crates. And the construction plans were supposed to be instructions for people with construction experience! 'Tis a minor miracle that the construction didn't go haywire. No wonder I'm almost bald!

Whenever any teacher can spark the kids' curiosity, we all win. Schools serve us best by teaching kids how to teach themselves.

By the by, I once wanted a circular slide rule to keep by a photocopier for reduction and enlargement; such capabilities may now be automatic, or partially so. I don't remember all the details, but essentially, I prepared a spreadsheet using logarithms for the angular ticks, with end points' coordinates for 5- and 10- increment values. By adding text for a LINE command for each, I made a Script file for execution in AutoCAD. I printed the resulting "picture" twice, and glued each print to cardboard, which I then cut out and attached the two circles at a central pivot of some sort. As luck would have it, I was the only one who knew how to use it. It's gone walkabout of course, but it was fun to make. I might have the files around here someplace, but it would probably be easier to start over from first principles.

One nice thing about slide rules, linear or circular, is they provide an immediate appreciation of the importance (or lack thereof) of precision. The fifth or sixth digit of a digital readout isn't so significant, after all. And the "batteries" in a slide rule never expire.:wink:

Joe

So do I count as a hopeless young person?

Joe,

The adjunct professorships sound spot on.

Your circular slide rule sounded like a fun project. I recall there were all sorts of graphical charts where you drew lines or used a ruler to calculate quantites by intersecting curves. From memory, lots of these were in the Industrial Chemistry fields.

I have a circular slide rule used for aircraft navigation somewhere.


FC,

Based purely on my experience with younger people and if I didn't know anything about you, the chances of you being hopeless would be quite small.

As I have read your posts ............ hang on, are you after compliments? If I continued writing what I had in mind you might become over confident and stop learning.

If I said you were a hopeless young person I would be telling lies which is against my principles.

What do you suggest that I do?

The situation at TAFE (technical colleges) seems to be that many of those teaching vocational subjects are doing so part time, while working in their trade or profession. For example, in the Building & Construction section where I work there are an architect, a surveyor and a builder who all work in their own practices. While it is good way for someone who is starting a new practice or who is too old to run around on roof trusses to earn a bit of secure income, they all seem to be doing it because they enjoy teaching, and do pretty good job of it as far as can tell.

FC, if you can count, you're not hopeless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wood Borer

FC,

Based purely on my experience with younger people and if I didn't know anything about you, the chances of you being hopeless would be quite small.

As I have read your posts ............ hang on, are you after compliments? If I continued writing what I had in mind you might become over confident and stop learning.

If I said you were a hopeless young person I would be telling lies which is against my principles.

What do you suggest that I do?

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Ah very wise you are. :D No I wasn't after compliments, I'm sure some forumites would be too quick to dish out the opposite:B

NZ does have a point, The "alf" should have had a clue about his job. Thinking (for example) that a circular saw is for cutting circular things is just plain stupid. Some kids ought to get off the xbox and into the world outside more often.

Bunnings should also have at least given the kid some training though.

In my position as a grade 10 student I see alot of thiiiick people. Like, going around punching each other just because they're thick, thick.
But not all the other students are hopeless, eg. one of my mates reads up on stuff like Mr Tesla and his inventions. He's no dummy


As for the school system....Don't get me started:no: It's flawed, I'll just say that much.

FC,

Don't be too harsh on the "thick ones". We all mature at different rates and sometimes we look back after we have matured a bit and are embarrassed at what we see - big deal, keep looking forward because you can't change either the past or what is natural.

Some of those "thick kids" will turn out fine, some of them will remain thick and become thick old pharts.

Don't be fooled into thinking that older people are all wise - some of the dumbest people I know are old (some even older than me) - age hasn't got much to do with it.

The people I feel sorry for are those who have never been given an opportunity and lack the confidence to improve themselves.

The education system is certainly not perfect and never has been but hopefully it is improving.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by funkychicken

Thinking (for example) that a circular saw is for cutting circular things is just plain stupid.

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I'm still wondering if this guy was having a joke and it was missed in transit!:q

That's my reading of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silentC

That's my reading of it.

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Ditto.

Arab proverb: If entering your tent you hit your head against the water jar and it sounds empty, do not be too quick to conclude that it is the jar that's empty. :D

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Originally Posted by Wood Borer

... some of the dumbest people I know are old (some even older than me) - age hasn't got much to do with it.

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... what about senility? :D

I wonder if the young fellow decided he should find out for himself and investigated at least he's working earning a few lousy $$$$ :roll: not on the dole or Austudy, HEX debt, sponging off mum n dad.

While Bunnies management whom are supposed to be well versed possibly HSC know it all's, rub their hands together reaping the rewards of tax payers dollars for training he is possibly not getting building their bank accounts.

Similar to those teachers who had many pay rises during the kids years at school.:doh:
I wonder if he knows he's being rubbished by so many teachers here on the forum.:smack:

Maybe the school system with all its changes, staff re-arranging, the particular school he went to didn't have industrial arts wood work metal work. Had to drop subjects as there were no staff to teach it they didn't get the funding but where placed elsewhere, went off to be TAFE teachers or run their own business.

After all I have used a circular saw to cut round things it is possible :U :p

Jig saws are not used to cut a Jig are they:no:

Scrollsaw don't cut scrolls :no:

Bandsaw's don't cut band's :no:

Oh to be born with all the knowledge needed to get through life :D then there would be no need for teachers :2tsup:

l work at the welfare end of school system ,in our program there is one teacher with a artisan (old tradie ) we work with 10 kids and have them all day 1 day a week for a year this way we get to know the student and their needs .
Went down to the beach today and painted a gazebo BBQ area with a different school l was proud of my boys how well they worked and got along with the other kids


had to have a snooze on the bus back to school :U

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

Scrollsaw don't cut scrolls :no:

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English is never that clearcut, Wheely :). I have just been looking to buy a scrollsaw specifically to cut the outlines of scrolls:yes: .... as in carved ornaments, not as in parchment. (Bought a 9" bandsaw with a 1/8" blade instead, don't need internal cuts.)

Another plausible explanation for a genuine "circular" saw misunderstanding is that the kid got confused with "hole" saws. They are circular, are they not? It is the kind of mistake i could see myself making, and I am certainly not young and, even if I keep joking about becoming senile out of fear :C, so far I am not stupid either... Maybe English was his/her second language?

Several interesting points have come up here, the one of most interest to me is there point of adequate training.
Just got off the ship in Rio after almost 3 weeks at sea. What an enlightening experience!!
The ship is a beautiful asset/facility. Very modern as it was launched only last year.
The trip was wonderful because of the places we visited and the great people we met.
Putting up with some of the staff and the incompetence and stupidity they exhibited was about as pleasant as a toothache. Not all these people were young but it was obvious that they were not well trained or were trained to the company´s standard.Furthermore, the senior staff had no bloody idea ( on the whole ) about beinghelpful and supportive towards obviously floundering staff. Barking and snarling was the otder of the day.
Had I been on the end of this type of treatment I would have walked off.
Let´s give young people a go! The sort of go I had when growing up and maturing; the sort of go where I was taught and mentored.

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Originally Posted by flynnsart

Of course they dont know anything these days, all you old farts :q dont teach them anything. All they get is smart arsed responses to seemingly stupid questions. How they gonna learn if no one teaches them. Is it their fault the company doesn't train them? He/she was actually interested enough to talk to you, encouragement might have been a better response. :doh:funny, all the same rofl.:2tsup:

Donna

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What she said.

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Originally Posted by nz_carver

now i here young people at franklinds doing nite fill at $19.50 phr
and thay dont even do there job i mean if there not talking texting or being a idiot
there going on about how there job is so hard and the $ is so bad!!!:;

You open boxs and get payed well to do it its not that hard:doh:

or u get the young kids who drop out of school and get center link
(thats the one that gets me!!! i mean we all pay or tax for them to sit on there ass all day and play xbox!!!!:no:

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Would you rather they be paid by Franklins or centre link:?

I have 2 son's aged 14 and 17, they both have part jobs and I could not be more proud that they are out there having a go instead of expecting things.

The 14yo has been working at Coles for 2 months. He has had some fairly difficult times with cranky old farts and people from foreign countries particulary when it comes to identifying some of the exotic fruit vegetables now available.

It seems strange to me that on one hand we bitch and moan about the kid getting money from centrelink then we turn around and bitch and moan when the kid trying to earn a few bucks at Bunnings doesn't know every single one of the thousands of line items they carry.

Hold the "brain dead" until he you have the explain the same thing to them twice.

Whilst I'm on my soap box. Why do we go to Bunnings? Because we percieve they are cheap. If Bunnings only employeed highly skilled tradespeople would they still be as cheap?

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Originally Posted by Howdya do that

What she said.



Would you rather they be paid by Franklins or centre link:?

I have 2 son's aged 14 and 17, they both have part jobs and I could not be more proud that they are out there having a go instead of expecting things.

The 14yo has been working at Coles for 2 months. He has had some fairly difficult times with cranky old farts and people from foreign countries particulary when it comes to identifying some of the exotic fruit vegetables now available.

It seems strange to me that on one hand we bitch and moan about the kid getting money from centrelink then we turn around and bitch and moan when the kid trying to earn a few bucks at Bunnings doesn't know every single one of the thousands of line items they carry.

Hold the "brain dead" until he you have the explain the same thing to them twice.

Whilst I'm on my soap box. Why do we go to Bunnings? Because we percieve they are cheap. If Bunnings only employeed highly skilled tradespeople would they still be as cheap?

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Howdya this sin't ashot at you or the young fella good on him :;]

I know your far from city hassles but there is signs of trouble looming here, Coles policy is no employee under age 15 its against the law or starters Union, OH&S and Workcover :roll: Insurance will not cover him either.

My point here is the kid aware, but the adults old pharts are so who's not teaching whom.

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

under age 15 its against the law or starters Union, OH&S and Workcover :roll: Insurance will not cover him either.

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There is no minimum age for casual employees, as long as the work does not interfere with the employee’s schooling.

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Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

There is no minimum age for casual employees, as long as the work does not interfere with the employee’s schooling.

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:rolleyes: vic it's 14 and 9 months :?

What have you been smoking, Arty? :D However, I keep forgetting that Australia is still a bunch of colonies, not a nation yet. Victoria is a bit more selective in the type of work children can do. And with some quirks: above 15 can serve alcohol??

http://www.youthcentral.vic.gov.au/V...1&contentId=-1

Lets put things in perspective.
I'll almost put money on the fact that your Grandfathers thought those darn younsters are just slackers.
A few years later your father was thinking the same thing.
Now many years on you may now think that there is no hope for these young people.
And I'll bet that in a few years those "no hope young people" will now be a bit older and be thinking the same thinks about those who come after them.

I think thats just they way things are and will always be. I think its just human nature that we will always consider those that come after us to be 'inferior' in some way.

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I think its just human nature that we will always consider those that come after us to be 'inferior' in some way.

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This doesn't mean that it's not true. I think about the things my Grandparents' generation went through and wonder how the modern generation would cope with it. They worked hard to give my parents a better life, they in turn worked hard to give us a better life, and so on. Each generation (generally speaking) gets a better start than the last. I think that maybe this has a cumulative affect on character and 'work ethic'. A kind of 'spoilt brat' syndrome. My kids have got it much better than I did. That must have some effect on their personalities and ability to cope with tough times.

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Originally Posted by silentC

This doesn't mean that it's not true. I think about the things my Grandparents' generation went through and wonder how the modern generation would cope with it. They worked hard to give my parents a better life, they in turn worked hard to give us a better life, and so on. Each generation (generally speaking) gets a better start than the last. I think that maybe this has a cumulative affect on character and 'work ethic'. A kind of 'spoilt brat' syndrome. My kids have got it much better than I did. That must have some effect on their personalities and ability to cope with tough times.

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how easy is it to judge from our middle class towers :-

Well, there have obviously always been people who never have to struggle for anything, and at the opposite end of the spectrum there are people who will struggle all their lives, but I think what you refer to as 'middle class' represents the majority of people in Australia and on this forum. If you can afford to own a computer and have it connected to the Internet, you can't be doing too badly.

As for passing judgement, well yes it is a natural thing to do. You think about what you had when you were young and how you dealt with things and then you look at the kids today and what they've got and it's only natural to criticise them when they complain about how hard they've got it. Just like our parents did. So imagine taking a teenager from today and placing him or her in the middle of the great depression, or World War II? Not saying they wouldn't handle it but it might give them some perspective and appreciation for what they've got - and no doubt it would me too.

The way things are going, we're all going to have to deal with hard times soon enough. Maybe this generation will end up having it harder than our grandparents did. Who knows?

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Originally Posted by silentC

Well, there have obviously always been people who never have to struggle for anything, and at the opposite end of the spectrum there are people who will struggle all their lives, but I think what you refer to as 'middle class' represents the majority of people in Australia and on this forum. If you can afford to own a computer and have it connected to the Internet, you can't be doing too badly.

As for passing judgement, well yes it is a natural thing to do. You think about what you had when you were young and how you dealt with things and then you look at the kids today and what they've got and it's only natural to criticise them when they complain about how hard they've got it. Just like our parents did. So imagine taking a teenager from today and placing him or her in the middle of the great depression, or World War II? Not saying they wouldn't handle it but it might give them some perspective and appreciation for what they've got - and no doubt it would me too.

The way things are going, we're all going to have to deal with hard times soon enough. Maybe this generation will end up having it harder than our grandparents did. Who knows?

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l put myself as middle class as rightly so you mentioned most of the members on this forum are ! Maybe we have a few upper class just slumming down in their spare time

You are right silent if we sent one of our teenage repetitive back in time they would find it hard

in exchange the past send one of their average teenagers to our time ,how would they cope if the full punch of globalise action,drugs, teenage sex ,violence in the home, drinking, teenage suicide,bloody eating disorders,sexual abuse, parents working 2 jobs so they can live in middle class with a big house so everybody in the street thinks they have a good job and money,divorce, today it is all just shoved down their neck and in their face

In any time in any place children will learn to survive in the world that the generation before them shaped (that being us middle class, voting SHEEP )
The children that can't adapted quicker enough will dye in the past do you want that for your kids or your grand kids ????

l are asked this question earlier, how do we fix the system or do we let kids slip though and leave them to their own devices ?

kids today are no diffrent to any other time ,it is us the grown ups

I have a bit of a problem talking about classes (middle class, lower class etc) as it seems to be based on wealth. Most of the biggest fools I have encountered worship money and consider themselves better than others because of their wealth.

Some of the wealthy have to pay for their kids to attend university because their kids are too thick to get there on their own merits. Does that make them better students? I hardly think so. They are giving their kids the same rotten view on life that money allows you to take short cuts.

There seems to be an attitude that we automatically respect our forefathers and are automatically critical of the generation after us. What a load of rubbish!

There are quite a few oldies with a lack of intelligence (nothing to do with education) demanding respect and pretending they are superior because they lived through the depression or fought in a war. Some of them might even be upset that we might reach their dizzy heights if the current economic disaster becomes a depression too.

There are dumb, average and smart people from all generations. Intelligence is not related to numbers in bank books, postcodes or how many times you have orbited the sun.

There are those who can cope with horrors like war, depressions, fires, and floods from all generations. I think our youngsters would cope with anything the past generations endured. Perhaps the way our generation has brought up the younger ones might make it a bit tough at first but then it is us to blame not the youngsters.

I respect those who cope, those who care and those who can think from all generations. If they are dumb and stupid, they are dumb and stupid no matter what their age or wealth.

The point I'm making is that if they were made to go without some of the stuff they take for granted today, they might appreciate it more and see it for what it is. Like mobile phones. There seems to be an expectation now that kids of a certain age will get one. Take it away and you'd think they'd lost an arm or a leg. I survived quite well without one. Having a mobile phone is just so unimportant in the scheme of things. What about that kid who ran away and was later found dead after his Dad banned him from accessing the internet? He thought he couldn't live without it. Stupid...

we give them the toys and blame the kids when they are missing the point
Now lets take the mobile phones and Internet off the adult why were at it lets get rid of running water and power most people will not cope .
Our generation has lost the skills to survive not the kids , we are to blame but we spend small amounts of money to fix it and vote parties in that help the rich get richer and the poor get poorer .

how do WE fix it :?

Hay Wood Borer your a teacher ? have you done the PD on generational poverty:?