G'day folks...help with old english oak desk please.

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Originally Posted by Lawry01

Hmmmmm..OK..have done a rub back, made up more shellac, and found on application a lot of it has finished cloudy/ milky , as though its taking the colour out of the wood? What is this, and what do I do please? Frustrating!

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It's known as 'bloom' and is the result of moisture being trapped in the polish. You can either cease polishing while the weather is cool and damp, or heat the work area. If you very gently heat the bloomed areas locally with a hairdryer (held a reasonable distance from the polish so as not to melt it), the bloom will disappear.

If you stop now, the bloom will likely partially disappear on its own with change in the weather, but some patches may remain. A further application of polish (or a wipe over with a cloth dampened with meths) will disperse the bloom.

Ahh yes..THANKS WW! Today is the first day of some very damp weather here, and our garage does hold the dampness! Also, I noticed after leaving for a couple of hours a fair bit of the 'bloom' had indeed dissipated! :2tsup: So...its off to the bathroom for wifes hairdryer (I no longer have hair!) and get on with the job! (I was VERY concerned that I might have to do more severe rubbing back. :doh:) So. onward & upward..hope to be posting some finished product pics soon! And hoping for no further issues. Thanks again, Lawry.

Go very gingerly with the dryer... sort of swipe it across from a distance and only move closer if you're certain it's not clearing the bloom. Never point the dryer directly at the fresh polish!

thanks WW..bloom now appears to have all but gone. Will probably leave it till tomorrow for next coats. Thinking I might heat up the garage a little first to push out any dampness. L

Ah the old hair dryer trick.

Several things come to mind. One a show called Get Smart, showing my age there. The same thing can be used when trying to get bubbles out of epoxy finish in fishing rod as it turns slowly. And what sort of hair dryer did they have when polishing in the past. :U

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Originally Posted by Christos

And what sort of hair dryer did they have when polishing in the past. :U

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All cabinetmakers' workshops would have had a stove for heating glue, warming groundwork for veneering and keeping the place warm and dry for polishing.

I used to have a honking great stove in the workshop into which I stuffed tons of old furniture. It was the best use of Victorian furniture I know of.

Ah don't I know about that problem, as noted by WW and Christos, yep some warmth is the key to sorting that out. I think I had previously mentioned that for us down south in the colder climes, the old clouding (bloom) problem can occur, simply due to the cold (and probably moisture in the atmosphere). Keeping your workshop dry and reasonably warm is definitely the means of preventing this problem.

If the hairdryer trick hadn't worked then yes I am afraid a light keying back would have been needed. Glad it wasn't.

Hopefully by now given it is a few days later all is well, and you are back on track. If you can post a few snaps of where the desk is at now, I suspect we might be able to help confirm what is needed next. I agree with WW that all going well you probably are ready (or close to) the 0000 super fine steel rub back and wax polishing stage. :2tsup:

Looking forward to your progress Lawry.

Well hi there HC....you've found me online while I await further 'drying' after lighly rubbing back my 6/7th coat ..The bloom did in fact dissappear (grateful!!) and my wife says I didnt let it dry enough after rubbing back with 600 dipped in water & dteregent..even though it looked dry to the eye! One can even learn from her! (shouldnt say this too loudly..it WILL go to her head!) I'm thinking of putting another 3 coats or so , so that the finish is just that little bit more of a sheen, without feeling the texture of the grain so much. Happy to post pics now, but wonder whether its better later this afternoon after the next lot of shellac? Right now its in 'rubbed back 'form.and DRYING!! We have a slighly warmer but windy day, so garage is open...bloom, bloom go away!!

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Originally Posted by Lawry01

Well hi there HC....you've found me online while I await further 'drying' after lighly rubbing back my 6/7th coat ..The bloom did in fact dissappear (grateful!!) and my wife says I didnt let it dry enough after rubbing back with 600 dipped in water & dteregent..even though it looked dry to the eye! One can even learn from her! (shouldnt say this too loudly..it WILL go to her head!) I'm thinking of putting another 3 coats or so , so that the finish is just that little bit more of a sheen, without feeling the texture of the grain so much. Happy to post pics now, but wonder whether its better later this afternoon after the next lot of shellac? Right now its in 'rubbed back 'form.and DRYING!! We have a slighly warmer but windy day, so garage is open...bloom, bloom go away!!

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I'm beginning to wonder about the cut (dilution) of your polish. If you feel the need to apply so many coats (six should be plenty for refinishing oak), then it might be an issue... or it may be amateur (no offence intended) preconception.

I know it's been cold and damp, but the bloom might also indicate polish that's too dilute as it's the meths in the polish that absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. The low temperature slows the evaporation of the meths resulting in the moisture remaining in the polish, causing the bloom.

What cut of polish are you using?

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Originally Posted by Woodwould

I'm beginning to wonder about the cut (dilution) of your polish. If you feel the need to apply so many coats (six should be plenty for refinishing oak), then it might be an issue... or it may be amateur (no offence intended) preconception.

I know it's been cold and damp, but the bloom might also indicate polish that's too dilute as it's the meths in the polish that absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. The low temperature slows the evaporation of the meths resulting in the moisture remaining in the polish, causing the bloom.

What cut of polish are you using?

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ABsolutely NO offence taken..quite the opposite..I am in major 'learn' mode, thanks to you guys!!

So, yes, maybe its just my preconception that I shouldnt really be able to feel the grain texture (but then, as I think about it, I guess to get to that glass like finish...I would need much more expeience in FP.)

The cut I'm using is 250grams flakes to 1litre meths. I do realy think now that the bloom was caused by my impatience. !
Regardless, now that I've lightly sanded back, I guess I am committed to at least another 1 or 2 coats? Lawry

Oak is seldom treated to a glassy finish; that's normally the preserve of close grained timbers. Pictures probably won't clearly show the level of polish, but I'm tipping you're about there now.

Cut and wax grasshopper... wax on... wax off!

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Originally Posted by Woodwould

Oak is seldom treated to a glassy finish; that's normally the preserve of close grained timbers. Pictures probably won't clearly show the level of polish, but I'm tipping you're about there now.

Cut and wax grasshopper... wax on... wax off!

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Yes sensai! But do I do another coat first to fill in where I've rubbed back..or straight to the oooo (dry, or with some wetting agent?) and wax? What waxes are suitable do you think?

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Originally Posted by Lawry01

Yes sensai! But do I do another coat first to fill in where I've rubbed back..or straight to the oooo (dry, or with some wetting agent?) and wax? What waxes are suitable do you think?

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Hmm, hard questios first! If you feel the surface has thinned out where you sanded back the runs, then a carefully applied coat is likely warranted. On the otherhand, if you skillfully rubbed back the dribbles and the surface looks tickety-boo, then go straight to 0000 and wax and do not pass 'Go'.

Well......I'm thinking a carefully applied coat might be warranted..just to be sure. Between you & WW, you certainly put the pressure on....phrases like 'skillfully rubbed back' tickety boo', and WW's earlier 'pristine surface' etc., I feel I need to eat a little humble pie and remind myself I've NEVER done this sort of work before..thus should be proud of my amateurish attempts!! (Hows that for pre-emptive rationalisation!)

Also, re oooo and wax..I've read in may places to wait 7 days before doing this...you're both seeming to suggest not to wait? Also, are you in favour of using oooo to apply and rub in the wax as well? Then, the question is which wx...like oils, I gather waxes ain't waxes!! :)

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Originally Posted by Lawry01

Well......I'm thinking a carefully applied coat might be warranted..just to be sure. Between you & WW, you certainly put the pressure on....phrases like 'skillfully rubbed back' tickety boo', and WW's earlier 'pristine surface' etc., I feel I need to eat a little humble pie and remind myself I've NEVER done this sort of work before..thus should be proud of my amateurish attempts!! (Hows that for pre-emptive rationalisation!)

Also, re oooo and wax..I've read in may places to wait 7 days before doing this...you're both seeming to suggest not to wait? Also, are you in favour of using oooo to apply and rub in the wax as well? Then, the question is which wx...like oils, I gather waxes ain't waxes!! :)

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The coats of polish have been built up over several days with time for each coat to sink... and, this isn't a high gloss situation, so I would give it about a day between final polish and wax. Our benefactor, U-Beaut sells wax that will do the job nicely. I think I mentioned it earlier and even the colour... I can't remember now, cedar colour?

Metho will grab water and hold it, causing bloom. Just a 100w light globe (old style) gives enough heat to prevent bloom. it needs to be turned on though.

Hi guys, sorry was away from the computer, in a meeting with the boss, who is going on leave for a few weeks and he wanted to discuss some work issues we are dealing with here. Hmn should be working so will try to keep it brief (sort of).

Re the cut of the mix between shellac flakes to meths. What I normally do, is start of with a slightly more viscous mix for the initial coats and as I work the polish levels up (number of coats), I thin the mixture down a little, such that the final coats of polish to be applied are definitely thinner than original. I have found that if you keep the mix too thick, for all coats it can actually give a surface that is not so conducive to doing the final polish/wax and as well the risk of runs in the polish can occur, and are then difficult to work out. But of course there in also lays the other risk that meths itself seems to draw in moisture and lead to the bloom problem.

Anyway i would say you should be on track by now. Hopefully with the last coats having been applied, for I think I probably would have wanted to apply a couple of quick coats after having cut back the bloom issue.

But after that yes you most definitely should be ready for 0000 and then wax (wax on wax off as WW says :2tsup:.

I only ever dry steel wool polish, have never used a cutting compound or lubricant. Again I would tend to agree with WW that oak normally doesn't have a high gloss, unless perhaps you are talking about say a piece from the 16C or 17C that has had hundreds of years of waxing. Hence if so, then using steel wool dipped into the wax and worked onto the surface and buffed off, should give you the desired finish. The alternative if you are not convinced is again perhaps trying either approach (steel wool polish and then wax/buff off as well as dipping the steel wool into the wax and polishing before buffing off) on a surface not readily seen, if that is possible to see which you like best.

Re: time frames, no I don't believe 7 day waiting to polish up should be needed, 24 hours should be sufficient given how you have applied the polish and your climate up north.

Re: what sort of wax polish, I use a product which most antique restorers down here in Hobart seem to use. It is called Old McDonalds Antique wax polish. However, I am sure the ubeaut products also are excellent. I just havn't tried them to date. The one though you do want is a polish that readily rubs into the surface and easily buffs off. In the past I have tried waxes that are horrid to apply and even worse to buff off. I you get something like that don't perserve with it, it will drive you nuts.

Whether you go for clear or coloured wax is to an extent probably not hugely critical, as both should work fine. The point is that the natural colour of the oak, coupled with the shellac polish should have given you a really lovely colour to work with.

Rustynail..your wisdom about light globes being turned on is awe inspiring!! ;)
HC & WW, yup...just did a final 2 coats to fill in where I rubbed back, and now will wait a day or two to burninsh with oooo, then .......YAY!! Wax on...wax off!!!!!! :) and finally, re-fit hinges, locks etc. and hope it all still fits! And yes..I actually am quite impressed with the colour achieved so far!

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Originally Posted by Lawry01

Rustynail..your wisdom about light globes being turned on is awe inspiring!! ;)

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It's like a light just went on!

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Originally Posted by Woodwould

It's like a light just went on!

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The light of enlightenment! So, really..this forum IS a front for a cult then!?? :roll:

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Originally Posted by Lawry01

The light of enlightenment! So, really..this forum IS a front for a cult then!?? :roll:

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Now hang on a minute. I like to think we are enthusiast. :U

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Originally Posted by Woodwould

It's like a light just went on!

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Some years ago, while working on the construction of Maquarie University, I had the pleasure of supervising two Irish chippies. One answered to Black and the other insisted his name was White. They were from opposite ends of the Emerald Isle and bickered endlessly. Yet they still managed to work together. One morning Mr Black was going to go down to the lower floor so Mr White asked him to plug in the extension lead while he was down there. Mr Black obligingly agreed. Upon his return he was confronted by Mr White, demanding to know why his request had not been carried out. Mr Black, quick to his own defence, insisted that he had plugged it in as requested. Mr White asked if he had turned it on. To which Mr Black responded by stating he wasn't asked to.
as I was aware of one Irishman involved in this thread and not being privy to the origins of others, I thought it best to take the necessary precaution.:D

Hi Lawry - doing a great job.

How good is the help and advice? And we all benefit from it.

I saw this this morning, and thought you might like it, and maybe WW+HO might having something to say about it.

Peter Gedrys ... at a seminar/convention ... the man loves shellac.
(Beware 53mins. I hadn't planned to watch it all. Wrong.)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xErUsgT7f4M]Finishing Seminar with Peter Gedrys - YouTube[/ame]

Cheers,
Paul.

Thanks Paul....yup, I am so impressed by how everyone's advice and generous time has helped here. I've actually been raving to heaps of people about this forum, as I am a member of a couple of others, still very good, but this is awesome. From WW & HC particularly, I reckon I have learned the equivalent of 6 months at TAFE!! (Yes I know WW....result is in the 'pudding'!) I also reckon its great that so many others can benefit (I wonder just how many have been lurking here??)

Will check out the youtube clip when our exchange upgrades to ADSL2!! We're a bit on the cusp of civilization here at Mt. cotton..being held to ransom by our major telecomms providor! 53 minutes will take me a couple of hours to view!

Schedule at this stage is...tomorow afternoon rub back with oooo, have another go at cleaning the leather (whats the strongest yet safe approach you reckon I should use on it, given its poor condittion?) then start waxing the whole baby, and stand back in awe for a short while. :2tsup::2tsup:

an interesting, informative and entertaining thread indeed .... and though too modest to say so himself, I will state that Monsieur WoodWould is among the best restorers I have seen. But not only that, he is an exceptional maker as illustrated by these, which he made with his own hands.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/member...220312-01a.jpg

https://www.woodworkforums.com/member...180512-01a.jpg

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Originally Posted by pmcgee

Hi Lawry - doing a great job.

How good is the help and advice? And we all benefit from it.

I saw this this morning, and thought you might like it, and maybe WW+HO might having something to say about it.

Peter Gedrys ... at a seminar/convention ... the man loves shellac.
(Beware 53mins. I hadn't planned to watch it all. Wrong.)
Finishing Seminar with Peter Gedrys - YouTube

Cheers,
Paul.

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I don't have 53 minutes to spare, but if someone would like to run a precis past me, I'll attempt a response.

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Originally Posted by Lawry01

Schedule at this stage is...tomorow afternoon rub back with oooo, have another go at cleaning the leather (whats the strongest yet safe approach you reckon I should use on it, given its poor condittion?)

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Assuming the leather is attached to the desk, I would wax the whole desk, leather and all. If the leather has lifted in places, squeeze a little paste under it and let it dry before proceeding.

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Originally Posted by seriph1

an interesting, informative and entertaining thread indeed .... and though too modest to say so himself, I will state that Monsieur WoodWould is among the best restorers I have seen. But not only that, he is an exceptional maker as illustrated by these, which he made with his own hands.

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:B

Paul, (pmcgee) very kindly posted the youtube link to Peter Gedrys video on finishes and asked the question of both WW and myself. Now obviously, I can't comment on WW's views re this, and for myself as an amature wood worker/polisher, rather than a professional, the first comment I would make is I for one am certainly not going to disagree with Peter's views based on I think he said his 26 years of experience.

So, my first impressions are yes, what he said and demonstrated made total sense to me and I believe quite correct. His comments and demonstrations in regards to the use of varnish type products, the equipment used, brushes, sanding etc, to me seem spot on. I too do pretty much as he suggests, but even I too learned a few minor technique improvements I can implement in future. I also agree with his views re Tung oil/vrs Tung oil based oil finishes. I use such finishes on floors, bench tops, cupboard doors in wet rooms etc. No dramas with them, and if scratched and/or worn you simply need to key back and re-coat.

As to his views on shellac finishes, the application of etc. I totally agree with him. From my view, once used to using shellac it is one of the easiest and nicest finishes to apply. Given I am mostly restoring antiques, and/or antique joinery, I rarely would even consider using any other finish. If you are worried re its use on tables or chairs, due to damage, heat/water etc, then you can always consider using something like Hard Shellac. Refer to Ubeauts website re this. But as a rule I am not worried re using shellac on such items, I always wipe up and never apply hot items to such polished surfaces.

Some of the coating techniques Peter described perhaps I might ever so slightly differ in my approach, but fundamentally I wouldnt do anything different from what he did. If using a brush, and I will always use this on complex areas on a piece, (carvings, mouldings etc) to me that is an obvious application method, but I will also use on large areas if I feel I need to or it is easier to do so. Like Peter, I have shellaced finished a wooden wall surface at my country property, let alone skirtings, doors, mantles etc.

His advice re using a pad (and I too make a pad as he suggests), on flat surfaces, however makes good sense and most definitely if you are after a perfect finish on say a table top. The risk of using a brush on such areas are if your technique is not spot on, and this is even more of a problem if the flat surface is on the vertical, is that you can get runs in the finish, which you will need to rub out (with sandpaper). I noted he too advocated the use of sandpaper between coats, not steel wool. I agree with this. The key being the grade of paper.

What he didn't explain, but I think I have previously in this thread is that as I apply more coats of shellac in 3 stages of say 3 applications that I change fup rom 260 grade paper up to 400 on the last sanding back. But then again, I am mostly after a really fine/silky finish, given this is what appeals to me, and mostly be it furniture or joinery I am after a fine french polished lustrous finish. If you are not, then less can be more if that makes sense.

However, I always finish off with super fine 0000 grade steel wool before I wax polish.

For someone, perhaps less experienced in the different types of finishes and their applications, my view is that this video is an excellent reference to watch.

WOW..HC..a great review of the clip..I havent watched it as yet, but already I'm having a sense of my grasshopper status being re-affirmed.. so much more to learn! :oo: All good though...

Havent had a chance to get to the final stages yet..hopeful for tomorrow afternoon work permiting. (boy, work really does violate my time!!)

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Originally Posted by Lawry01

Havent had a chance to get to the final stages yet..hopeful for tomorrow afternoon work permiting. (boy, work really does violate my time!!)

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Work is the curse of the drinking class.

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Originally Posted by Woodwould

Work is the curse of the drinking class.

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Cheers...I'll drink to that...sooner than later!! In fact...its after 5.00..now sounds good!

Gees guys I am with you, 1st after getting home from work a decent homebrew, now enjoying a nice glass of red. I am sure it all helps. Hey grasshopper, in truth mate you have moved on from being a complete novice, given how far you have come on this journey of learning. Keep us posted on how your desk looks after the waxing stage. Then as the glow from what you have achieved, when ready there is your next project. I have posted some pics of my next projects plus request for advice from the learned ones on the forum

Well folks.....as of red wine time last night, the project has come to a close!! :D:D:D:D:D
Pics attached from the proud dad of this newly restored old desk!! I'm sitting here enjoyng the scent of freshly waxed furniture with a fantastic old world feel!

Firstly, many many thanks to all who have helped with this..feels very much like a group effort, so you need to come over and enjoy a red and a cigar around it!! (bit of secret mens'business stuff) Huge grattitude particularly to WW & HC for your incredible on-line tutoring!! :2tsup:

WHilst the end result is certainly not pristine, I reckon given what I had to work with, my grasshopper status, and your guidance, we have come up trumps with a beautiful piece that will grace my home office/ study/'smoking room' for many years, and hopefully decades to come.

Something I will do soon, as a way of consolidating and thanking you all, is to post my 'lessons learned' This migh be useful for some others who have been enjoying being part of our travels with this project. Meantime, a litle break before I show you my next project (small one )

Cheers, Lawry:)

:thyel: Congratulations on a job well done! You're bound to be happy with that!

Great result, especially considering what you started with!

Enjoy a glass of red for me in celebration,..maybe wait till after lunch though! :)

Damned nice job there Lawry :2tsup:, you indeed should be really happy with the end results. I did say that it would provide you with a big grin :D. I also always love that final stage where all the hard work comes together in a big rush as you buff off the wax and can stand back and admire it.

I can tell you one other thing, (regardless that it wasn't the purpose), you will have added value to your desk.

Considering what you started with, mate you have definitely have earned your wings and no longer need to consider yourself a "grasshopper". Would be most proud to sit down over a red, a cigar with you and admire your efforts. Oh well nice idea.