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The highest I have ever been (except in an aeroplane) was Chamonix in the French Alps at the base of Mont Blanc. I decided to go for a walk up to the snow line one day. Got about two thirds the way up and decided to come back. I know it's only 1,500m or so up but it felt like my lungs would burst, so I can only imagine what 8,000m would feel like.
You have a point Silent, the experience levels are not known. It is however, safe to assume they were of varying experience levels, some of whom would have been very experienced and have climbed at least one or two of the big seven, but NONE would be first time climbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
The article states the climbers contacted their base camp and received direction from people with clearer heads than they had. I usually support the decisions made by those on the spot rather than newsworthy (read saleable) comments provided with hindsight. Unless a detailed examination of the circumstances by an experienced authority can point out poor decisions, so far they seem to have thought it out reasonably well, given the information to hand.
Just because the decision is not popular does not mean it was incorrect. I note that the scientist mentioned it 'might' have been possible to revive him with oxygen, "and even get him down to safety". He did not state this categorically. There was similar controversy over a Japanese woman being left on the mountain a few years ago.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/...150287767.html
The highest I have been is the peak (Victoria Park) in Hong Kong. A 15minutes ride on a cable car. It is pretty steep though but Jasmin loved it.
This is true, none of use were there and the people who were there made the decision based on whatever information they had at their disposal.Quote:
The article states the climbers contacted their base camp and received direction from people with clearer heads than they had.
However, as I'm at pains to point out, the decision was not based on assessment of risk to Inglis and his party, it was based on "this guy is as good as dead anyway, so why turn back now? We only get one chance." At least, this is the way it seems to me.
I saw a doco on the Japanese woman who was left behind. I don't remember the details but I think it was a life or death situation for the people involved and I think there was a storm in there somewhere too.
There is a view that it is pointless to retrieve what will be a body well before they get down. Should an expedition retrieve a person who is already dead? Should they retrieve someone they know will be dead soon? Performing the rescue is more dangerous than climbing the mountain due to the extra exertion and oxygen consumption, plus the additional risk of carrying a body. I respect their right to make a very difficult decision. I also respect their acceptance that others will make the same decision about them if necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
That sounds like the one, though I wasn't comparing the decisions or circumstances, I said there was similar controversy. ie, others questioned their decisions after the fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
That's the very view Hillary is speaking out against!! ;)Quote:
There is a view that it is pointless to retrieve what will be a body well before they get down.
Flaw #1, we only have information reported in a paper to go on. Of course it's going to be shocking.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
So if 40 climbers passed this bloke, and knew he was dying, why didn't they dong him on the head with a rock, like they would have if he had been a dying animal?
Err no, that would be inhumane.
So if they couldn't help, why didn't they stay with him???
I hope they all took photos of them to show their grandkids: "This is me with my foot on a dying weak prick....."
Remind me never to shake a mountaineer's hand again.
A sailor would've stopped.
P
:( :( :(
The highest ive been was at the summit of Mount Bunningyong:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wongo
Most moutaineers I know would have done everything in their power to help him. Actually, I know someone who did almost die saving someone - but they both came out alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by bitingmidge
Cam
SilentC,
I think the ethical dilemma of the climbers was a difficult one. If realistically the chances of the man's survival were low, should these people really have made a futile effort simply in order to be able to say they did what they could?
I remember a similar dilemma happened to me when I was working on a geological expedition in the far south of Ethiopia. We were driving through a village when some villagers stopped us and showed us a baby which had been very badly burnt through falling into a fire. Possibly we could have saved its life, if we had driven some 500 miles to take it to hospital in Addis Abbaba. On the other hand it might well have died on the journey and we would then have been in all sorts of strife. As it was, I am afraid I just left some items from our medical kit, and I doubt if it survived. Am I a monster?
Rocker
Reading between the lines it really sounds like the expedition leader made the decision to carry on so I conclude he possibly instructed his group to proceed.
Being in a hostile environment were any members of the group experienced enough to disregard his instructions?
So if that's what happened,
are individual members of the group responsible.
Probably not as they were subject to their group leaders instructions.
As to reponsibility of the leader - thats another subject altogether.
And that may even come back to the Mountains protocols.
However I am not accustomed to blind obedience and probably would have stayed with him at least.
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I assume none of the contributors on this thread (or belong to this site) were the ones (30+) who passed me last year when my car had broken down on a side road in country <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><st1:place>Victoria</st1:place></st1:State>?.<o:p></o:p>
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Was your life at risk? - No but those people who passed me didn't know either!!
Did you call NRMA? - No because I am not a member of their organization - Instead I contacted the RACV with whom I am a member and they arrived 2 hours after breaking down.
If you were a helpless 60 yr old lady I will stop to help for sure, no sweat. Mind you if you wave to my car and you dont look like a murderer then I will stop too.
Should it matter what age or sex you are, I am a fellow human being in need of help but those people who passed me didn't care if I had died. What you said suggests double standards!!.
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What about the woman who was left to die in <st1:City><st1:place>Sydney</st1:place></st1:City> a few weeks ago and it was said afterwards that many people had seen her but chose to ignore her.<o:p></o:p>
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And your point is? - You have people here critizing a non Australian in another country for his actions (or lack of them). Yet most of those people passing that lady were AUSTRALIANS which suggests to people in other countries that Australians are less compassionate towards their own people than those overseas!!.
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he had spent 100's of hours training and spent thousands of $$$$$'s to do this. If he didn't do it this time then he may not get the opportunity to get his 15 minutes of fame<o:p></o:p>
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Fantastic - everyone to their own he who casts the first stone...........
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I was in the British forces for 6 years - and saw action to know that we were taught to get to the target and not to worry about injured colleagues (which was against my nature) as they would be taken care of by the follow up services. The motto was "YOU HAVE TO LOOK AFTER NUMBER ONE!!".
Regards
David<o:p></o:p>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The point being? - This was not a combat area and the enemy are known to pick off anyone who stops to assist and rely upon the emotions of the colleagues of the fallen, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with a military or combat environment or exercise. I would say indirectly it is a combat area in that it is a battle of the individual against the elements. Who are you to determine someone else's decision especially when you were not there to know the whole story?. After all sometimes the media will only give you one side (their side) of the story. I know this given the action I saw was contary to the media reporting at the time;).
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Treat others as you wish to be treated, simple philosphy I hold close.
Metalhead,
cynicism is contagious and akin to being blind I'd reckon:( ,
Once We (royal we of course as SWMBO was involved) were rearended by a vehicle travelling at 100 kph, now being on a motorcycle it wasn't a pretty picture, wife flying through the air, me caught under bike sliding down the highway, pretty dramatic one would think:o........ the car following the vehicle that hit us witnessed the entire incident, at least he thoughtfully:rolleyes: swerved around me whilst I was lying in the middle of the road trapped under a large motorcycle, never stopped though:mad: .
I however do not believe everyone is of the same ilk as this person, I honestly believe most people are genuinely decent, and it is proven in countless ways every day, it just isn't newsworthy:D
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Originally Posted by Metal Head
Metal Head, read the second half of this comment. I said I would. Do you look like a murderer?
If choosing to help a 60 yrs old lady rather then a strong young mate stranger for a minor incident is called double standards then so be it.
If you were in serious trouble and I knew it then it is different. By the way did you die?
Cliff has a point. From what I've read, the guy 1. made his run to the peak late in the day leaving himself little lee way for a safe return trip. He took a gamble and lost out. 2. the guy was generally poorly equipped and the climb was poorly planned.....eg. he wasnt carrying enough oxygen to safely carry out the climb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers
Would I have stopped and risked my life to help the guy even if he was obviously not going to make it? Yes, _I_ would but I would not expect the rest of my climbing party to also risk their lives by doing so.