breaking covid rules

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

I don't get attitudes like this.

If I had a highly communicable disease, such as TB or a haemorrhagic fever such as Ebola or Marburgs, how would it feel to know I went to the shops, the chemist, the local McDonalds, Bunnings, then sat in a movie theatre deliberately infecting as many as I could?

Lets say your children caught this and died.

Freedom!!! At all costs!!!


We already have dreadful epidemics burnt into our collective consciousness - polio, rubella, measles, small pox - where these caused untold misery.


On those writings, I've read them, I utterly fail to equate a rapidly escalating need for public health to the writings of an anti-semite Nazi supporter and sympathiser who was only sorry because he was caught and the system didn't work out for him.


Gassing and Shooting Jews and shovelling them into ovens is a far cry from flashing a phone with a green badge to show one has a had a vaccination.

If you want a REAL GLIMPSE into the minds of these evil bastards, take the time to read The Nuremberg Diary - Gilbert, G. M

It is a dreadfully illumining read. I can email the scanned PDF of the book to those who wish it. It is a diary from a Psychologist who spent time with them during the Nuremberg trials. It is both fascinating and deeply disturbing.

People who sprout this poem have absolutely and utterly no idea what they are talking about.


edit - added a link to the PDF.

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I attributed the quote to the originator regardless of the past as it itself is so valid in todays society. We seem prepared to give things away without speaking up and even those that should speak up like unions seem to be giving things away by not doing so.

Your "freedom at all costs" hardly rings true or fair when you also want to impose the compulsory viewing of my own private health data to non authorised people. I have said I have had one jab.... but some of the attitudes displayed here and your comments mean I will not be telling you when i have got fully vaccinated.... it's none of your business nor as i said nor is it the business of the local shop keeper.

If you DELIBERATELY went and frequented public venues knowing you had a highly transmittable virus then you should be charged/fined whatever but that is not the same as not wanting to show your vaccination status.

A % of delta infected people world wide are double vaccinated, this is even the case in australia and from memory the ACT, so those people thinking they are safe and dismissing the symptoms as a cold have themselves infected people in the community.

I say it again GET A DAMN JAB.......

It is, of course, an individual's choice as to whether they want their vaccination status to be public knowledge. Personally I don't care whether people know I'm vaccinated or not, I can't really see what the big deal is. If the medical detail was embarrassing, maybe I'd care. If I was attempting to defraud my life insurance by claiming to be healthy when I'm not, or applying for a job and trying to cover up a pre-existing condition, then I'd probably care (but would also have demonstrated a lack of adherence to the rules of society, so all bets would be off). But a vaccination? They stand in queues in school to get vaccinated for all kinds of things and nobody cares or tries to keep it "private". I really can't see what the issue is.

However as someone whose area is currently suffering a covid outbreak because an infected family arrived from a metro area, lied about having covid tests and visited half the businesses in town, and finally were "discovered" only when they had got so sick they needed medical attention, I fully support the notion that vaccination certificates and RAT negatives be required to leave your house. There is a wonderful device called a breath alcohol ignition interlock device that requires the operator of a vehicle to blow through a breathalyser before they can start the vehicle's engine (used for example in repeat offenders who drive trucks for a living). Right at this point in time I'd support a covid version being developed and linked to peoples door locks!!

As always, if people did they right thing then we wouldn't need rules. Sadly people can't seem to understand that, so they do the wrong thing (or more accurately "whatever suits them").

In my younger days I had to show my drivers license to get into a club or pub. Even now, when playing in darts competitions I have to show my drivers license to get into clubs as a temporary member. I can’t see any difference in showing my Vaccination certificate to get into a pub or club in the future.

How NOT to do it.....

Mitchell & Webb - Counterfeit Money - YouTube

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Originally Posted by Warb

I fully support the notion that vaccination certificates and RAT negatives be required to leave your house.

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Just speechless.... well not really but any response would likely see me get banned.

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Originally Posted by Warb

As always, if people did they right thing then we wouldn't need rules. Sadly people can't seem to understand that, so they do the wrong thing (or more accurately "whatever suits them").

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I don't disagree.... it' seriously disappointing that people just can't do the right thing, a vaccine certificate though isn't the answer though as ultimately it gives a completely flase sense of security when it's already known and clear that vaccinated people can catch and transmit the virus.

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Originally Posted by Lappa

In my younger days I had to show my drivers license to get into a club or pub. Even now, when playing in darts competitions I have to show my drivers license to get into clubs as a temporary member. I can’t see any difference in showing my Vaccination certificate to get into a pub or club in the future.

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This is not even in the same league and actually whilst a drivers license is commonly used a proof of identity issued by the relevant authority is fine as not everyone has a drivers license.

Just listening to the news and there are genuine questions about if the certificate can even be policed.

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Originally Posted by Aussiephil

This is not even in the same league and actually whilst a drivers license is commonly used a proof of identity issued by the relevant authority is fine as not everyone has a drivers license.

Just listening to the news and there are genuine questions about if the certificate can even be policed.

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Why isn’t it in the same league? In NSW if you didn’t have a drivers license you go to Service NSW and get a proof of age card. Same to me as a Vaccination Cert. Its just a card!!

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Originally Posted by Lappa

Why isn’t it in the same league? In NSW if you didn’t have a drivers license you go to Service NSW and get a proof of age card. Same to me as a Vaccination Cert. Its just a card!!

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Reminds me of when I was living in Boston, Massachusetts in the early 1980's. Drinking age of 21 and you needed a "good identifier with photo" every time that you used a credit card. The drivers license was the default - It had yur mugshot, age, signature and was issued by a respected agency.

Everyone used one, even non-drivers. You just went along to the Govt offices and got a "Category 0" drivers license. Read as category zero; it entitled you to drive zero vehicles, but it got you into the bar or club.

Perhaps the drivers license could be extended to include vax status.

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Originally Posted by Aussiephil

Just speechless.... well not really but any response would likely see me get banned.

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Given the complete disregard that so many people are showing to the wellbeing of society as a whole, how do we address it? I made a tongue in cheek suggestion about needing a negative RAT to leave the house, but in all seriousness what do we do? If a person in supermarket queue started waving a knife around they'd "face the full wrath of Johnny Law", but the same person in the supermarket queue with covid could potentially do far more harm to an entire community. And if, like our local cases, they dosed themselves up with 'flu meds to hide the symptoms, are they not acting in the same premeditated way as the person with a knife?

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Originally Posted by Aussiephil

I don't disagree.... it' seriously disappointing that people just can't do the right thing, a vaccine certificate though isn't the answer though as ultimately it gives a completely flase sense of security when it's already known and clear that vaccinated people can catch and transmit the virus.

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No, not a false sense of security. A very real understanding that vaccinations significantly reduce the chance of catching the disease, the impact of the disease on the individual and the chance of passing it to other people. Yes the protection is not 100%, but the fact remains that a group of vaccinated people gathering in, say, a Mens Shed, have a far lower chance of leaving with covid than a group of unvaccinated people - there is a far lower chance that a vaccinated person will bring the disease in, a far lower chance that they will give it to anyone else, and a far lower chance that anyone who did catch it would be hospitalised.

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Originally Posted by Warb

If a person in supermarket queue started waving a knife around they'd "face the full wrath of Johnny Law", but the same person in the supermarket queue with covid could potentially do far more harm to an entire community. And if, like our local cases, they dosed themselves up with 'flu meds to hide the symptoms, are they not acting in the same premeditated way as the person with a knife?

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Not quite. Carrying a knife as an action in itself does not kill anyone. You have to use the knife to kill, not just wave it around. I carried a knife on me from the age of 14 right through til I moved to Melbourne in 2010 and found out that it was illegal to have a pocket knife on you in public. Nobody died because I carried a knife all those years but there is one person in this world who is alive today because I had that pocket knife on me to cut her seatbelt and get her out of a burning car. The next person who I see in a burning car will probably die because I have been "disarmed" by a stupid law.

Now wandering around with COVID and just breathing is enough to kill others. There are not necessarily any signs that you have it. It kills with no readily apparent threat or risk at the time it is inflicted on the innocent person just going about their daily activities.it is not an act of violence. It is a purely random chance as to who they come in contact with will become infected and which of these will die.

Yes the COVID is potentially more deadly than the knife but the infected person does not have to commit a violent act to effectively make the kill so they do not feel the same degree of responsibility, if they feel any responsibility at all. They would argue that it is not their fault they have it and spread it so they should not be penalised for their actions.

For all the people in lockdown or even under orders to isolate due to a tier 1 or 2 exposure who eventually test positive, there are literally tens of thousands of people who test negative. So many people, knowing this, see that the risk is small that they will test positive and be a danger to others if they just go down to the shops and get out of the house for a while, or whatever. If this was not true, even with Delta, we should be getting on top of it by now. How can people in general be convinced to take this seriously?

Singapore has reached 80% of their TOTAL (not just over 16's like they are counting in Australia) population fully vaccinated, then eased restrictions and now case numbers are jumping. This should be a warning to Australia about what will happen here if they go ahead with the current plans for opening up.

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Now wandering around with COVID and just breathing is enough to kill others. There are not necessarily any signs that you have it. It kills with no readily apparent threat or risk at the time it is inflicted on the innocent person just going about their daily activities.it is not an act of violence. It is a purely random chance as to who they come in contact with will become infected and which of these will die.

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Interesting, and that leads me to wonder where we draw the lines between intent to cause harm, failure to take reasonable care to prevent harm, and a pure accident? If a pedestrian is killed by a motorist who was taking all possible care, that is very different to a pedestrian killed by a drunk motorist in an unregistered, unsafe vehicle, even though neither motorist "intended" to cause harm. In our covid situation, "patient zero" came directly out of a very closely contained group of people who were known to be suffering a covid outbreak. He brought his family to the area and very quickly they all started to become sick, at which point one of them came in to town to buy medication. As is standard practice they were asked if they had been tested for covid, to which they replied "yes" (a lie). They subsequently used the flu meds to cover their symptoms and continued to visit the town to shop, until one or more of them became so sick that they had to get medical help.

So, an act of violence? Not by the "bash stab" definition, certainly. But given their full knowledge that they had been in an outbreak in a very restricted community, so there was every chance that they had been infected, to then cover the symptoms, lie about testing and continue to mix with other people.......?

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

I don't get attitudes like this.

...

On those writings, I've read them, I utterly fail to equate a rapidly escalating need for public health to the writings of an anti-semite Nazi supporter and sympathiser who was only sorry because he was caught and the system didn't work out for him.


Gassing and Shooting Jews and shovelling them into ovens is a far cry from flashing a phone with a green badge to show one has a had a vaccination.
...

edit - added a link to the PDF.

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The police started to compile lists of homosexuals right after the introduction of photography around 1870 to 1900 the German Kaiserreich). The reason was to easier detect banned activities, like sexual encounters between males. Fast forward to 1933 - the Nazis took over and discovered the lists. They started to put all people they found on the lists into concentration camps, they shoot them and gassed them. The victims got marked with a pink sign, hence the name "pink lists".

It seems far fetched for most Australians that anything like that could happen in Australia ever. I just like to remind everyone that the same applied to Germans in 1890. No one expected something like that to happen ever...

The pandemic will be history in a few years time - the passports, databases, etc. are bound to stay much much longer.

I don't need my vaccination status in a database and a business asking for it will neither get an answer nor my money. I'll go elsewhere. And yes, I'm fully vaccinated and I have it recorded in my yellow booklet.

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Originally Posted by doug3030

... Singapore has reached 80% of their TOTAL (not just over 16's like they are counting in Australia) population fully vaccinated, then eased restrictions and now case numbers are jumping. This should be a warning to Australia about what will happen here if they go ahead with the current plans for opening up. ...

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Absolutely correct, Doug, and yesterday the ABC highlighted this with a report of over 500 new cases daily in spite of 80% vaccination rates, but it is not the whole story. People who have not been vaccinated are five times more likely to get covid and to get a much more severe infection.

Singapore has a very high rate of testing for covid averaging over 60,000 tests per day - the "average" Singaporean has been tested 3.4 times - and they are detecting many cases where the person has zero symptons and did not suspect that they might have covid, and are then required to quarantine at home. Singaporeans are quite responsible at following rules - its the Singapore Way.

This is reflected in their statistics for yesterday:-

• 774 people in hospital (less than 2 days new infections),
• 54 cases requiring oxygen,
• 8 cases in ICU,
• 5.4% unvaccinated got covid compared to 1% of vaccinated,
• 81% fully vaccinated and 84% had first dose,
• 607 new cases yesterday,
• 98.2% of cases were asyymptomatic or had mild symptons.

(Source: Singapore Ministry of Health, MOH | News Highlights)

Would the high number of asymptomatic cases be because they are healthier in general compared to say the US with a high obesity rate ?

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Originally Posted by AndyJ

I don't need my vaccination status in a database.

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It already is.