When I did my BA any 'lefty' influences always seemed to stem from the Sociology Dept, when I got to Phd I was too bloody busy to notice and really didn't give a rats, it was my life, my subject and I had to work as well, sod 'em all.
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When I did my BA any 'lefty' influences always seemed to stem from the Sociology Dept, when I got to Phd I was too bloody busy to notice and really didn't give a rats, it was my life, my subject and I had to work as well, sod 'em all.
That's coz the engineers are the cause, not the problem Cam :D
I agree though, the uni bashing that goes on on this forum is thoughtless. Perhaps I should start talking about plumbers with gold plated tools etc. I've dealt with the 'me me' type from all backgrounds, and when I was in the public service, the ones rushing to counsellors and blaming others tended to be non-uni types ... perhaps because I was in an engineering department and most of the uni types were engineers or surveyors :confused: :rolleyes:
Personally, I think the problem is through the whole of our society. Yes, it is the result of changing attitudes and to a large extent, it's been a good move. Like everything though, take it too far and it falls down. Anyone who thinks the 'climb into your shell and tough it out' route is the best way to handle life's traumas are fooling themselves - it's as destructive as racing off to your counsellor for reasurance. The answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Richard
I brought up the uni comment as it has been the only common denominator I have identified so far.
Not trying to bag uni's, its just that its been identified. Others have identifed that it's being found in others as well.
I'm hoping others can throw some more thoughts into the mix as to where this culture is coming from.
Some good thoughts so far.
Iain's comment re "the given number of problems in a specific area are directly proportional to the 'services' available" <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->is interesting - trying to get to the bottom of that might be like arguing about what came first, the chicken or egg though. Not sure if I'd get an answer, only opinions.
I am actually all for counselling, where appropriate, and agree that talking about the stuff that happens in life and work with workmates and family/mates is a good part of life.
The best form of counselling is simply blowing off steam with mates, IMO.
I also find that concepts such as self-reliance, teamwork, espritit-de-corps, sacrifice, mental/physical toughness and mateship are not well developed in young people. Its there, but often needing a lot of work.
Maybe too much sitting around studying and "being involved with people through electronic means" is part of it.
A lot of the whingers have social lives, but not too many meaningful relationships. Thats one of the reasons that they focus so much on their work relationships... and the things that happen at work, that I wouldn't think twice about, cut them to the bone.
Maybe I could include that conforming to peer pressure is crippling as well. Its not often that I come across 'tough nuts' that don't give a stuff as to what others think about them. The bloody minded individuals are getting rarer. Now its often a case of "I'm an individual cause I choose to conform to this groups dress/behavioural/language/piercing code".
I have not found a country-raised person that blames others either.
Not having a go at young people now either, as I've said before 95% are great to good... its the 5% that give me the irrits.
G'day Clinton1,
I'll add that I'm one of those that don't give a stuff what others think of me, I'm an honest bloke, give loyalty, respect etc., but if someone doesn't like me, then really I don't care - because they're probably not the sort of person I like anyway or more to the point, tolerate.
But all this doesn't make me a bloody minded individual, maybe it's that I don't tolerate fools or similar. I don't go along with thinking that such and such a thing is popular so I have to like it too.
:)
I wasn't counting the engineers. We all know we're different:rolleyes: :D and superior, and don't need to be told.:pQuote:
Originally Posted by CameronPotter
Maybe there are tossers everywhere, and some of them went to uni?
Hey Clinton,
Sorry if my post seemed liked it was aimed at you. I actually read all your posts and thought that it was fine, reasonable and simply an observation. However, there were some other posts that were simply saying - "YEAH".
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the whingers did come from uni. but that doesn't mean that it is exclusively that way, nor does it mean that you can be cruel/callous about it (and again, you weren't the problem).
As for your last post - I reckon we are now getting closer to the problem (other than the engineers being the problem! :p )
Too right. That, or your girlfriend or family or whatever... I feel really sorry for people who need to go outside this group for support. It either means there is something wrong with the group of people who are closest to them, that group doesn't exist or there is some MASSIVE problem (like the ones you mentioned earlier). However, some people choose to go outside the group as the first option, which is both silly and sad to me.Quote:
The best form of counselling is simply blowing off steam with mates, IMO.
As for your comment on teamwork, I reckon that the reason that it is often weak is that it is "taught" not learned. Young people do teamwork exercises from very young these days, but they are all artificial...:(
I think that this is probably EXACTLY the problem. At uni, you develop ties with the people you are around and they can become your dominating social network. Thus, when they go to work, they may carry this same thing forward. Thus, when someone you feel is one of your closest friends obviously doesn't think the same about you, well that could be pretty hurtful. Maybe you can blame homework for that. You go home from uni and have to do more work rather than relax with your mates. That being said - it is sensible to MAKE time for your mates. Also, I know some slackers at uni. don't work all that hard - but don't get me started on that. :rolleyes: However, I suppose the problem still comes down to the fact that some people aren't willing to take responsibility - which is pretty weak.Quote:
A lot of the whingers have social lives, but not too many meaningful relationships. Thats one of the reasons that they focus so much on their work relationships... and the things that happen at work, that I wouldn't think twice about, cut them to the bone.
Finally, the comment about being an individual and choosing to behave like XXX is something that I have seen altogether too much. Some of my friends are like this e.g. I listen to independent music because I don't like the stuff turned out by the established companies, thus I rebel, like all of these people...:rolleyes:
A bit silly, but I guess that is what growing up and finding out about yourself is all about. I am sure that every generation has the same comments aimed at them as they experiment (usually as a group). Still, I reckon it is pretty to to conform to a unconfromist attitude.
Cheers
Cam
ps I can sure prattle on...
Oh, and us Tasmanian engineers are obviously better again aren't we?Quote:
Originally Posted by TassieKiwi
:p
Does anybody else feel dizzy reading this stuff ?......I do.....must be mum's fault !! :mad...The old witch ! :mad: ............. Apparently, she drank a couple of bottles of wine a night during my metamorphosis.......(sniff)(sniff)(sniff).....ooooo, I JUST love turps. https://www.ubeaut.biz/zonked.gif
Thank god for Black Humour. Without it I'd definetly need to talk to head doctor. Down hill from then on for shore. I'd have to give up turps......
Jake, if it makes you dizzy then imagine how much it makes me go crazy.
I can't tell them that they complete tossers than need to make the decision to either grow up or make sure that they don't contribute to the human gene pool.
I have to guide them into thinking like an adult.
Thats why I'm trying to work out where it comes from, so I can attack the whole concept and sort it out from the start. I can say "don't do this", but if I can point to the whole concept/issue and talk about it in a way that makes it seem pointless and irrelevant then I'll have a better chance of getting it sorted.
How about saying:
"I can understand where you are coming from, but to have you talk about such things in the work place makes me feel that my job as counsellor is overvalued which places undue pressure on me. Thus, I take offense at the implication that I am able to solve your problems and I feel that by bringing them to me, you are devaluing my self-appreciation. Not only that, by taking the complaint to an official level, I feel that you are devaluing the person/idea of whom/which you are feeling aggrieved about. I would feel much more comfortable if we didn't have to talk about these kind of problems and instead you discussed them either with the person you have a problem with, your friends and family or instead showed some mental fortitude rather than burdening me with your griefs that I should not have to address.'
Hopefully somewhere in there they should be rolling their eyes at you - at which stage you simply say, "See how silly it sounds!" :p
Cam
Alternatively: Have a piece of offcut wood in your office with a hammer and a box of nails. Tell them that woodworking seems to keep people sane and let them hammer in 10 nails. By the time they have done that they should feel better...
G'day,
And then after hammering in the nails, ask if they feel any better for it? If not, smack them around the head with the bit of wood, then ask the same question again. :D
Waldo, the trick is the get the thickness of the bit of wood right. For serial offenders do you make the bit of wood a little thinner so that the nails go all the way through!?! :eek: :eek: ;)
I guess that would stop the minor complaints about the workplace...
Cam
What you do is have a length of 4x2 (inches, not them little things) and four or five six inch nails. Ask them to drive the nails right through the board, near one end. When they ask you why they are doing this, you tell them they are making you a club which you will use to beat some sense into them :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CameronPotter
Richard
Flamin' heck, Cam and Waldo got in as I was typing my reply. Great minds go insane alike eh?
Richard
Actually, the concept of suggesting woodwork as an outlet is a good one. Of course, the company should help, so ask them to provide a workshop, and a table saw, and a thicknesser, and some nice hand planes, and a lathe, and a ... :D
Richard
G'day,Quote:
Originally Posted by CameronPotter
Well that was what I was alluding to. But I thought that Clinton1 might nominate me for some therapy if I suggested such a course of action. ;)
And you're basing that on the individuals on this BB :rolleyes: :D :D :D :D :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CameronPotter
HH.
I am thinking about the old cricket school that Rod Marsh used to run here in Adelaide. Marsh had a reputation as a tough master, but he always said he didn't know where that came from as he hadn't had anything to go hard on the students over except in that first year when they got a bit wild and he had to set them straight. I have a feeling that the word was passed to each new set of incomers, play up and you'll pay so they didn't.
Surely all this councelling explosion is one because the service is there and also because the individual groups don't have that communication going within them so individuals go to the councellors as where else can they go.
I am pretty sure it is a poor management thing not to allow the team or in bigger companies teams to get the chance to have a yarn, laugh or whatever together so they can keep things sorted. Weak management likes weak teams as this management can appear to be superior. So allowing people to go to a councellor rather than the others in the group only means there will be back stabbing etc going on making the group weaker. While an outside opinion can be valuable it is crucial that individuals take possesion of their problems and solving them.
Stephen
Next time you have a session Clint, just hand these out.
http://www.bananaboys.com/cheap.jpg
Al :D
Erm...Tassie ones better than most, Kiwi ones even betterer:p :p :pQuote:
Originally Posted by CameronPotter
Of couse you are, as they say "Two heads are better than one". :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CameronPotter
Funny thing is that I wasn't even born in Tassie, but I still have the scar!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Termite
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozwinner
Al,
:D :D :D
Mick
Sorry..
All I can think is......
You are here on planet earth, deal with it.
You are given a once in a life time opertunity to do it right.
F(!)ck up, and you pay the price.
I am not here to help you.
Get over yourself.
Your place will be filled by someone else, and quickly.
Dont you watch the wildlife channels, thats how life is.
Anyone want counceling get in touch, I will put you back in touch with reality faster than you can blink.
Al :mad:
What about telling the whingers just how incredibly lucky they are
They live in a democracy
and can have a whinge without the secret police bumping them off
They live in a prosperous country
they don't have to scavenge at the rubbish tip for their food
Their government provides many types of welfare to needy people.
they don't have to crawl in the bush to find a place to die.
I dont know about Universities being the cause, but like everywhere else it always seemed to be the weirdos that made the most noise, at least at Sydney Uni. My perception perhaps.
I always thought family and friends were there for you as a sounding board. We all go through bad patches and most of us dont need a "type 2 classic such and such diagnosis" from a shrink of some type to help us cope.
Life has ups and downs and you've got to deal with both.
But in recognising this, please don't forget that many of us WILL suffer something that needs more than a chat with Dad or a yarn with the big brother. Suicide still kills more men than alcohol and road crashes - it's behind heart attacks, but that's it. How depressed do you have to be to commit suicide? Pretty bloody bad, and it's the second killer of men in this country.Quote:
Originally Posted by boban
That doesn't mean that the slackers and the panic merchants don't need some sorting out, but the 'big, tough, Aussie bloke' image is a killer.
Richard
BT luckily didn't DT
:D :D :D You cheeky bugger ! ......:eek: Oh, I mean, thats just HORRIBLE, 'arold ....how insensitive ! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ozwinner
Can never question that !!!....agree entirely. Problem is, nobody understands these things until they actually go through these hardships.Quote:
Originally Posted by echnidna
I told my 8 year old daughter a similar thing the other day........uno, ' eat your food...people on the other side of the world are starving' uno same old guilt trip............and she said ' WELL, send it them ! '....she got up and stormed off to her room........:D . (just quietly, I quite liked it,...gutsy little girl)
Hi Driver,Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver
Its interesting the vietnam vets issue that was raised. My father, who is an ex HMAS Voyager sailor, recently found out that he and other navy members are eligable to be deemed vietnam veterans due to the length of time in mission when doing escorts.
Anyway, he has now taken on the Vietnam vets persona along with his PTSD from the Voyager incident.
Had an interesting exchange the other day;
Dad: "they spat on us you know, when we came back"
Me: "Who spat on you"
Dad: "The public"
Me: "What on you"
Dad: "no on vets"
Me: "who got spat on"
Dad: " I dont know, but they spat on us ya know"
Me: "Did anyone you know get spat on"
Dad: "No, but they did"
Me: " So what did you do? Smack in the face"
Dad: "No, but they spat on us you know"
i always struggle with the image of any soldier coming back from a tour and taking it on the chin when some POS spat at them. Most would have knocked the POS out cold.
A few days later I was chating with a professor of psychiatry, who treats my partner who has a brain injury, and asked him about it. It was interesting what he had to say.
His view on a lot of the recently diagnosed Vets with PTSD are actually contracting the illness through counselling. His view was that as a lot of vets are now at retiring age, like many people retiring, become depressed due to the change in life/value that occurs at this time. They then seek counselling, the fact they were in vietnam comes out and they are made to relive the experience and bingo they are diagnosed with PTSD due to being vets.
He reckons for a lot counselling is the worst thing they can do, at least as far as looking for answers in the past is concerned.
Still confused.:confused:
dazzler
P.S If you are a vet and this upsets you I apologise completely, just interesting is all.:)
I agree with the Professor of Physcho.
If you endure some real hard ####.
forget about it before it stuffs you right up
Get on with living.
Sadly, that doesn't always work mate. It's a nice theory but a sh it ideal. No, I'm not an apologist for therapy, just someone who's stood on a wharf looking down ...Quote:
Originally Posted by echnidna
Richard
For Dan P - you obviously needed a better class of probationary.
I am reminded of an acquaintance -'Sue' - who seemed to have a real problem with another employee - 'Sister'. One night shift we were discussing various things and it came out that 'Sister' had been 'Sue's training officer/partner when one night they were called to a fight at a local pub.
Things quickly got a bit sticky, with a large hostile crowd gathering, and 'Sue' turned around for some advice from her 'senior' constable, only to find that 'Sister', with the keys, had locked her self in the paddy-waggon cab with the windows up & wasn't coming out. Luckily 'Sue' had lots of grit & managed to keep talking until some more crews arrived, but strangely didn't think much of her training officer.
Richard, I see what you're saying and must say I didn't look at it from that perspective, ie an illness.
A very serious illness at that. Recent figures show that on average 5 men commit suicide through depression every day. I know where Richard is coming from, I'm a survivor too.Quote:
Originally Posted by boban
Richard and Termite,
I'm not unhappy that this issue has been brought up.
While dealing with the 5% does cause me a bit of stress and I don't like it when I am dealing with what see as very trivial matters:
the flip side to counselling is that you do meet people who have a set of personal circumstances that would cause just about everyone to have problems.
Its these people that the support systems are really there for.
I have to refer suicidal people on to better support agencies, and then maintain a "mate" role with them as additional support.
There is always the fear of there being "the one that slipped through", the "one that I didn't see the signs in".
Mate, there are plenty who 'slip through' the better support agencies too.
Dan
Yeah, I think that most people (make that I HOPE that most people) here were only talking about the trivial cases. Where something serious is wrong, well sometimes you do need some external help and quite possibly help from someone trained for this task. I can't imagine ever being depressed enough to consider suicide - and I hope that I never go through enough bad stuff that I am able to imagine it... :(
I hope that you guys haven't taken the other comments the wrong way.:o