Tax

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Originally Posted by adrian

Wage earners are the only ones who pay high taxes on high incomes.

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I seem to pay large amounts of tax on a low income.

Does anyone disagree that we live in the best country in the world and have it, generally, pretty damn good? When your on a good thing etc.

Can you imagine what would happen if most services the government offered were taken away? As would need to occur when gov income dropped. Disabilliy first, then children etc
As well as junkies trying to steal your tools for drugs there would be people trying to steal them to feed the children. viz America.

Hail Zed, omniiscient ruler of Australia.

One addendum: Companies to train apprentices in all fields.

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Originally Posted by Iain

Did anyone see the Darling Buds of May :D :D , not the garbage seppo version, the proper one, sums this up nicely ;)

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I saw that! SHE was the only actor/actress in that show, but others have told me there were a few other actors - I don't believe them....I can only remember HER - and have the retina burn to prove it!

Referring to Catherine Z J??? She can burn my retina's any time she likes :p

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Originally Posted by Iain

Referring to Catherine Z J??? She can burn my retina's any time she likes :p

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Of course, she was the only one in the series remember!

I must be the only misguided uni student here that ever enjoyed a cool refreshing beer at my uni bar .... funded in part of course by awful student unions... $1 pots and $2 basics every day of the week back in 1994.

I was also the only student that ever used library facilities after hours (if it wasn't for student unions they would only have been opened between 9 and 5pm)....

I lecture uni students from UNSW and QUT and actually agree (despite my postings) that you should be able to choose whether you want to join a union.

I work in general practice and a user pays system in health care would be a disaster for low income earners, especially if you had a chronic disease. How many of you gripe about paying to see the GP? How many of you pay for your pathology tests, x rays, medications etc (don't forget ALL of it, ie: remove the bulk billed part and the subsidised medications through the PBS)? Don't get me started on smokers....we need the tax they pay on cigarettes to pay for their overuse of health care dollars later on...

Granted, 4WDs for people who need them in the bush - absolutely, but not for city dwellers who drive them for image and never get to see a dirt track! Try the David Suzuki nature challenge!

Cheers
Dan

As for student unions, I did first year of a degree full time and the balance externally. I used the student union in the first year, free beer nights where very well patronised and although you could find fault the union did provide a service. As an external student the union held no interest but I didn't mind paying the fee, but back then there was no HECS fees either now they really suck. Introduced by politicians who got free degrees to slug students on low or no income, and we want an educated nation? JohnC

Hecs repayments are based on what you earn. If you earn nothing you pay nothing. If you earn lots you pay it back quickly. I can't think of a much fairer system for people without the money to pay for further education to get that education. The other option is that only the rich kids get university educations. Now that would be really fair.

Pancakes anyone???

(Don't knock the rich, as of today rich is contributing large amounts towards the payments on my new Bobcat:p )

Bananas are good with pancakes

Cheers

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Originally Posted by DanP

Hecs repayments are based on what you earn..

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And if you happen to earn in the vicinity of the threshold the system can be quite a pain. ie If I work no OT I don't pay HECS but work 2 hours OT and HECS is witheld. But its not levied on what you earn above that amount, like tax. It is a fixed % of all, and of course if the net rise to my wage is less than the HECS %, I get less take home pay.
I'd be quite happy to pay higher marginal tax rates to repay HECS than have this situation.
Allthough I will get a pay rise soon that will push me back into HECS territory.

So I'll probably get a pay rise and end up with a pay reduction.

Further to that, I went along happily for a year nearly having HECS witheld, but come tax time the thresholds were raised and they gave it all back to me.
I could have put it onto HECS myself, but with three kids.. And no new gouges.

Technically Im rich....salary usually just over $100,000 but I dont really see myself as a rich ba...d. House is paid off and I have a brand new workshop to play in but only managed all that because I dont have kids and my wife works. I also spend at least half my year imprisoned on offshore oil rigs in often not so nice parts of the world so I feel quite entitled to the salary I get...or whats left of it after Costello and co take their cut.

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Originally Posted by vsquizz

Pancakes anyone???


Cheers

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No thanks squizz....pancakes a bit rich.

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Originally Posted by AlexS

I am really happy to be paying taxes, especially since i found that the government can afford to spend $5000 per chair for fat-asred cabinet ministers, most of whom are complete oxygen bandits and a waste of space. :mad:

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I agree...given em bean bags. Really cheap ones from the 2 dollar shop...the ones that make your ar...e itch if you sit on them for too long!!

It's alway been an argument on which way to lean left or right where is the middle or what is the moral ground.
To me it's really simple "I hereby agree that If I wish to enjoy the trappings of success in my life, I will as a human being also agree to helping a few of the less fortunate, it's only a few dollars after all.
and why the hell not, helping our fellow citizens out is as Aussie as......
like many of us having experienced life from both sides of the fence teaches us lessons and I for one will NEVER forget these lessons learnt from either perspective.
Let us consider it a user pays system for being allowed to be relatively well off, or the peasants may indeed start revolting and lop off our uncollective heads.



Bruce C.
(BTW I personally am not in the top brackets, but I'm not in the lower ones, I don't begrudge people wealth when they earn it, through application and hard work, however when they believe they're entitled to success as a birthright......well I say VIVA la revolution comrade......, this is also one of my favourite late at nite had a few drinks topics)

One reason the NUS and the ardent student unionists are afraid of voluntary student unionism is because most students are likely to vote with their feet and not join. If uni is an educational experience to prepare you for life, then students could start by learning that nowhere else (to my knowledge) is it compulsory to join a union. Workers join unions because they hold the belief that the union provides them with a benefit. If the union is seen as not providing a benefit, membership slumps - as we are seeing now.

As for providing services - with the amount unis are charging, these services should be provided by the uni. The problem with the higher education debate is that people have this expectation that everyone ought to be able to go to uni. Realistically, only people who want to take up a profession like law, science, medicine or engineering need to go to university. In most other areas, on the job training, interspersed with some external study would be of more benefit. I think employers in many fields would agree that 1 year of job experience is probably worth more than 3 years of uni. Traineeships and apprenticeships are the way to go, but the idea that uni is for everyone is killing the trade and retail sectors and causing the Govt to spend more money funding uni's to pay for students to do courses that they don't really need....

As for lecturers, I get the distinct impression that TAFE lecturers are far more professional in the delivery of their lessons than uni lecturers. Uni lecturerer tend to be very smart in their field, but often terrible at imparting their knowledge to students. One thing the Govt could do is to legislate that all uni lecturers have to pass a spoken English test!

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Originally Posted by Dion N

................If uni is an educational experience to prepare you for life, then students could start by learning that nowhere else (to my knowledge) is it compulsory to join a union............

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Last time I worked on a large commercial site (Cairns Casino, 1995) I was forced to join the union. I rang the appropriate government department to complain as supposedly in Queensland there's no such thing as compulsory unionism. I was told that they didn't get involved in these things. Apparently the union goes to the builder at the beginning of the job and tells them that they will give them all hell unless they (the builder) requires all the contractors to "ensure" that all workers join the union.

Mick

Had the same problem years ago Mick, " you either join the union, or you dont work" :eek:


Al :(

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Originally Posted by Dion N

One reason the NUS and the ardent student unionists are afraid of voluntary student unionism is because most students are likely to vote with their feet and not join.


As for lecturers, I get the distinct impression that TAFE lecturers are far more professional in the delivery of their lessons than uni lecturers.

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Must agree on both counts, Have had to pay the student Union standover Fee
And been paid as a lecturer.


How many Uni lectures :left school:went to Uni :became Uni Lecturers. ?
How many tafe lectures :left school:went to Tafe:became Tafe Lecturers. 0
Draw your own conclusions as to what this means.



The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

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Originally Posted by Dion N

As for lecturers, I get the distinct impression that TAFE lecturers are far more professional in the delivery of their lessons than uni lecturers. Uni lecturerer tend to be very smart in their field, but often terrible at imparting their knowledge to students. One thing the Govt could do is to legislate that all uni lecturers have to pass a spoken English test!

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One of the greatest misconceptions about unis is that their main purpose is to provide a profession. The main purpose a university has is to do research. Teaching exists only for training researchers, and for funding. Universities are not supposed to give a profession. TAFE or apprenticeship are much better at that. This is the main reason that those professions that do require uni education also require an internship period. Uni education only provides the background knowledge. The internship provides the profession.

I believe in collectives, I believe in mateship, I believe in people power & democracy, therefore I believe in true unionism but it must be voluntary.
(I too had my issues with the ole BLF, Dad was a builder, no ticket no job)

However how many of us enjoy the relatively good conditions of the modern workplace and rates of reimbursement without a thought to those who fought for these rights and conditions.

On the flip side of popularity, why when I have stood on a picket line and lost 2 weeks income, been ostracised by the companies involved, been involved in unnecessary physical conflict had the apologists for unsafe archiac behaviours/practise slander us, then have those whom sacrificed nothing, not thier promotion opportunity, not pay, yet still enjoyed what We fought for....I'll tell you why because that is plain old right whether or not they are willing to stand up for themselves, we will anyway and not begrudge them as in the end it's for the better.

Ask yourself
Is it right?
Am I proud of my actions?
If it is my last action would I like to be remembered for it?
Is it for the greater good?


Bruce C.
Ethical actions & morality are not ambiguious they just get clouded by greed.

As an 'bean counter' who studied at TAFE, our favourite saying was always:
"An accountant from Uni, can write a 5000 word essay on "what is an Asset", whereas an accountaint from the TAFE, can actually do a bank reconciliation, reconcile debtors & creditors and produce P&L and Balance Sheets"

Maybe the relevance of what is being taught should be questioned

Bruce,
like you, I believe that without unions many would not enjoy the conditions they do now. If there's one thing unions have done in building is make it a safer business. But I just can't stand compulsory anything! I'll fight tooth and nail not to do something if I'm forced to do it, when if asked, I would probablty be happy to do it. I guess I'm in then minority in that I've got the negotiation skills and the cheek to get more when I believe I'm entitled to it. Having skills someone wants helps also. The other thing I don't like about unionism is that it gives everyone the same monetary value. If I'm more productive, can work unsupervised, always turn up on time and have every bit of gear required for the job then I reckon I'm worth more than the bloke next to me who turns up hungover and late most mornings, slacks off at every opportunity and whose toolkit consists of a ripped old nailbag with a hammer and a blunt chisel (this is a true and accurate description of the deadbeat I was assigned to work with on the casino, I had to lend him a pencil and we were both clearing around 1500 a week)

Mick

Agreed Mick, those types of people are everywhere, they probably don't deserve our efforts but they recieve them anyway, its' a sort of karma they never seem to last anyway, sure a few do prosper enough to P!ss us off, but not lot of them on a whole, and on the way we help those who need the "mouthpiece" we can offer. That cheek and brazenism you allude to, yep I know it, many of us with the "gift' (yeah like my "gift" hasn't got my nose broken more than once)of the gab use it for ourselves and sometimes even to help those who deserve a hand on up to our level.

Never have believed in compulsory unionism it's bad for the cause anyway, sorta like communism is bad news for socialists. ;)

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Originally Posted by javali

One of the greatest misconceptions about unis is that their main purpose is to provide a profession. The main purpose a university has is to do research.

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So we teach sorry research all out Nurses, Doctors, School Teachers, Lawyers, Engineers, etc
and then let them loose to learn on us to become what they already have written qualifications for and are paid for .
I never understood that before thanks

journeyman Mick
I agree with your views. When working at sea I was always a member and supporter of the union but by choice. I went to all the meetings and had my say put foward my thoughts and at times changed policy
Unionism works if democratic, and this country would not be the greatest place to live without unions but the whole consept of compulsory unions with no choice goes against everything I have ever believed .




The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

The solution is easy don't pay student union fees but remember to get a list of all sevices, notice boards, pamphlets, library books, free entertainment etc, so you can't be accused of sponging off people who contribute.
Don't join an industrial union but make sure that you give back any wage rise that is negotiated by a union because you are just sponging off other people.
If you work on a very dangerous building site and the union negotiates with the employer to implement safety proceedures, make sure you use the old unsafe proceedures. If you fall of a roof and survive don't go whining to the local union rep for help. Get a lawyer and pay for it yourself.
If you have a rostered day off that was negotiated by a union then if you have any moral fibre at all you will work a 40hour 5day week, work for a flat rate on weekends - no penalty rates or time and a half or double time.

I had to attend court once when someone was caught rorting the system via the computer system, I was a prosecution witness in the case as were several of my colleagues.
When we had out day in court the union reps were there harassing every witness for the prosecution.
It was that day that I lost any interest in unions who are prepared to use my money to harass anyone who is called upon to give evidence in a court of law, the defendant was found guilty and we still received union abuse for
setting him up etc (which we didn't).
It bothers me that they are prepared to extend their support in case like this to harrassment as well as funding a defence brief.

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Originally Posted by Iain

I had to attend court once when someone was caught rorting the system via the computer system, I was a prosecution witness in the case as were several of my colleagues.
When we had out day in court the union reps were there harassing every witness for the prosecution.
It was that day that I lost any interest in unions who are prepared to use my money to harass anyone who is called upon to give evidence in a court of law, the defendant was found guilty and we still received union abuse for
setting him up etc (which we didn't).
It bothers me that they are prepared to extend their support in case like this to harrassment as well as funding a defence brief.

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There are criminals in every organisation. Just look at the number of politicians, police, doctors, judges etc who have been criminally prosecuted over the years. Unions don't have a monopoly on intimidation. You might find that there are a lot more people being threatened and intimidated by their employers than unions and ask anyone who has served in the armed forces what threats and intimidation are all about.

Heres an idea for a completely radical new tax system. When you get youre tax assesment from the ATO you get three choices of method of payment:

1. pay the tax to the ATO OR
2. pay it to a worthy charity.
3. if youre a Woodie pay it to .

Of course there will be a few minor problems with this new system.... the ATOs tax harvest would drop to zero overnight and Politicians would have to suddenly consider the horrendous prospect of having to fund their own retirement.

I don't know why we just don't do away with government altogether and go back to the feudal system. It was so much easier then. Everyone was a peasant except for the local laird. You all worked for him and he provided protection from roving bands of robbers and neighbouring fiefdoms in return for all of your money and the first refusal on a shag with your missus on the wedding night. Small price to pay for a warm pile of hay and fresh rags to wear every other year.

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Originally Posted by adrian

ask anyone who has served in the armed forces what threats and intimidation are all about.

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You won't find many threats or intimidation in the Army these days.
I just left after 11 years and part of the reason was that I found the whole organisation (term used loosely) was becoming to soft, touchly feely, in touch with emotions etc.

The Army is a completely different environment to most other workplaces which needs to have a bit of fear and intimidation.

The idea as a leader (in the Army) is to have your soldiers more scared of you than the person shooting at them! That way when the poo hits the fan you know they will do what is necessary and what they are told!!!

How is someone who can't handle being yelled at going to handle someone trying to kill him?

Jack.

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Originally Posted by E. maculata

"I hereby agree that If I wish to enjoy the trappings of success in my life, I will as a human being also agree to helping a few of the less fortunate, it's only a few dollars after all.

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Bruce,

If you can see $30000 as only a few dollars then good luck to you!!!

Jack.

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Originally Posted by Ashore

So we teach sorry research all out Nurses, Doctors, School Teachers, Lawyers, Engineers, etc
and then let them loose to learn on us to become what they already have written qualifications for and are paid for .
I never understood that before thanks

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That is exactly how it works.

Cast your mind back to when you graduated from uni. Were the next two years the biggest learning experience of your life (apart from this forum of course)?

Jack.

I think that ALL income tax should be abolished and the GST set at 20% instead.
Every time that Packer buys a bottle of imported French bubbly he would be paying tax on it. Every time he bought another gold back scratcher he would pay tax on it. No matter what he bought, shares, holidays, took money out of the country, meat, another wife, he would have to pay tax on it the same as the rest of us but, because his expectations are somewhat higher than most pf the proletariat he would pay far more than we would.

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Originally Posted by javali

One of the greatest misconceptions about unis is that their main purpose is to provide a profession. The main purpose a university has is to do research. Teaching exists only for training researchers, and for funding. Universities are not supposed to give a profession. TAFE or apprenticeship are much better at that. This is the main reason that those professions that do require uni education also require an internship period. Uni education only provides the background knowledge. The internship provides the profession.

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If unis are mainly for research, then the Govt is better off putting money into CSIRO or funding private R and D companies. At least all the money will go directly into research without some being siphoned off to provide teaching... :rolleyes:

Seriously through, If I am paying mega-bucks for a degree (or background knowledge), then the least I would expect is decent teaching! If unis are only providing teaching as a sideline to their main business, then they ought to hire some lecturers to do the teaching fulltime and let the rest of their staff get back to doing their research. That way you are getting taught by someone who cares, rather than someone who views lectures as an interuption to their PhD research.

Some of the research being done in universities is of such dubious value to society that I can't believe the Govt is funding it.

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Originally Posted by Kiwigeo

3. if youre a Woodie pay it to .

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I LIKE option 3. :D :D :D

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Originally Posted by

I LIKE option 3. :D :D :D

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, it can't get better than that so may be you ought to close this thread whilst you are ahead. :D

Peter.

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Originally Posted by Jack E

If you can see $30000 as only a few dollars then good luck to you!!!

Jack.

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From Left field ;) 11 years in the army, good stuff Jack a few of my friends did the same, not a life for all I gather. But I can guess where the money for the lads & lassies and the necessary gadgets is garnered, so apparently we come from different camps entirely as I pity someone who sees it as anything more than what it is "money" thats all it is after all, not life, not death, not prosterity, nor rememberance..... it's just money.
Yes I earn it and require it, and yet I still refuse to allow it to rule my existence. I don't mind paying my taxes, only caveat I wish for is that at least 50% would go to those less fortunate than I.


Bruce C
NB; by less fortunate I did not mean Pollies :D

G'day,

I'm going to wade in here with my 2 cents and be a bit contoversial.

I once was in a job once and didn't join the union - so I got sacked.

I see my brother-in-law who is a rigger and so is with a union - it rains and he's been there for 1/2 a day he goes home on full pay for the day. An apple will be thrown in the toilet so it clogs, they walk off because it's not up to scratch, there's intimadation galore. Unions demand picnic days and insist that the company they are working for pay them for it. A bit of steel might be thrown off a site a few floors up - it's unsafe, so the worksite is shut down and they go home on full pay for a few days until it's resolved. They have a dispute over pay, have a strike and they want to be paid.

An empoyer wants to streamline his business because under a union you can only pick up a hammer but you can't pick up a screwdriver - so instead the employer wants guys who can pick up a hammer and use a screwdriver and a shovel too. But the union says he can't sack that person to get someone to do the job of three people - it's his business, so why can't he?

It's not about better conditions, but let's see what we can get as freebies for the boys and drag the economy down - look at Victoria's record with the most delays per year by unions.

Pay your union fees - money for the union bosses.

It should be freedom of choice, not pay fees for a bunch of militants.

To me it's a whole load of C***

Sorry if I have offened some, but I can't wait until the job reforms come through after July 1. Unions have a place, but not a place where we have militant unions saying you can't be a chippie or whatever unless you pay up.

(I'm not a chippie BTW, but do it over again and I would be - instead I run my own business as a design consultancy)

:D