Screws or nails for deck?

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

I've built more than a few decks in my time, mostly hardwood decking on hardwood joists, but a few with treated pine decking. For hardwood decking on hardwood joists it's pretty much standard to go with 50mm bullet head gal nails, with the ends of boards predrilled to prevent splitting. Never had a call back for any popped boards and it's been well over ten years for some of the decks. As the joists will still be pretty green they will shrink around the nails as they dry. If you want to remove these nails you'll generally need to lean on the end of a decent wrecking bar. I've done a few decks with 'dektites' a small metal bracket that does away with face nailing and spaces the bottom of the boards off the joists for airflow. A very good but time consuming method of fixing. I would be very suprised if you have any boards pop loose if you use hot dip gal nails into hardwood joists.

Mick

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Hi Mick

Your definately not wrong the standards state a 50mm x 2.8 bullet head nail to fix decking to hardwood joists..... I love it when i see it cause it keeps me making $$$$$ usually takes a few years the nails start to rise the customer whacks them back down the hole in the joist is now to large and its game over either pull the nail out and replace it with a titadeck or have the decking all replaced or renailed .... Usually when we go out they can't remember who did it or he is no longer around either way it will have to be redone .......

Use titadecks 50mm into hardwood joists and 65mm into treated joists.. you can use 50mm if the boards are only 3 inch into treated cause its cupping power isn't as great.....

Cheers utemad

Utemad,
I don't think you'd be making any money off my decks. Like I said, some of them are well over ten years old (getting on for 20) and I've kept an excellent relationship with most of my customers so usually come back for any maintenance.

Never had to replace any popped boards.

After about ten years in the tropical sun and monsoonal rain (measured in metres per year) fungal decay is a bigger issue. But then, that's just the way I see it done up here, by everybody in the industry. Until I experience problems with it that's the way I'll keep doing it, or at least I would, If I wasn't busy building kitchens instead.

Mick

Hi Journey Mick

Nah don't think i would be as your not in sydney LOL

If it works there stick with it the small head would be more appealing to look at....thats the motto we use .... Here in sydney be it timber or climate what ever 50 mm bullet heads pop up above the board face all the time.... usaually by 3mm or so and settle at that....

Like i said not saying its wrong what your doing ...the standards agrees with you that is the correct fastener for the job ..... We just don't believe it is for us or sydney and prefer titadecks or screws and on 6 inch boards bugel batten screws

cheers utemad

Utemad,
only ever used bugle battens for a commercial deck, 150 x 30mm boards. Lot of work for a deck. I enjoyed doing the outdoor stuff while I was doing it, but I'm happy to be working indoors mostly nowadays.

Mick

Hi Mick

I tell you if i had a choice now i would have considered inside work too some days ....No more looking at the sky to dictate your day....
Yeah we only do the stainless bugels on 150 x 32 hardwood .... we have a 240v rattle gun with a bit to suit.... Puts them in easily but by the time you countersink and stuff around with end joins it aint worth the bother...
90mm is far more cost effective for the customer as it uses 30% less fixings than 70mm so is quicker to lay...... Its a pitty the way kitchens have gone with eurethene and all the flash finishes cause it means a chippy can no longer build one himself only assemble them now....

cheers utemad

UteMad

Thanks for all the advice. You almost have me convinced to screw the decking over nailing.I did read one thread on the forum about heads shearing off, something to do with not having the right size pilot hole, and needing to use an impact driver to screw the heads in.

I dont think I will be running out for a nail coiler for decking anytime soon either based on advice gained from first hand experience. But I will get a framer though.

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Originally Posted by BrissyBrew

UteMad

Thanks for all the advice. You almost have me convinced to screw the decking over nailing.I did read one thread on the forum about heads shearing off, something to do with not having the right size pilot hole, and needing to use an impact driver to screw the heads in.

I dont think I will be running out for a nail coiler for decking anytime soon either based on advice gained from first hand experience. But I will get a framer though.

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Hi Brissy

Yeah the thread on the screws was most likely caused by the wrong screws ......A lot of suppliers are getting stainless chipboard screws which have a reduced shank before the countersunk head which makes them prone to breaking....
If you buy a framer try and get one that takes the same nails as a paslode gas gun as it will make it easier to source nails...... If your gunna use it to nail your structure together check out the price of a box of mechanical galvenised nails first as they aren't cheap so if you don't like the cost better not to buy the gun Your best off with 82mm than 75mm but they are a fair bit dearer......Don't use anything else for framing into treated pine as the chemicals in the pine accelrate the corrosion of brights and electra gal nails

The trick to screwing is buy the right screws

cheers Utemad

www.dialadeck.com.au

Here is an interesting link about some withdrawal testing done for decking. http://www.timber.org.au/resources/R...l%20Trial1.pdf

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Originally Posted by BrissyBrew

Here is an interesting link about some withdrawal testing done for decking. http://www.timber.org.au/resources/R...l%20Trial1.pdf

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Hi Brissybrew

It makes for an intersting read...pitty they didn't look at the 65 x 3.15 titadeck as they stuck to 2.5 and 2.8 shfts......I have long been telling suppliers that some titadecks are now so clogged with gal that the screws are virtually non existant... Same with ring shanks tto much gal and the rings are gone...... As predicteed the screws win and they didn't even use 10G only 8G ...... The right screw in my opinion would have a plain shank in the portion the board is in which further stregnthens the heads of the screws and allows the boards to move independant of the joist when you walk on boards.......

I printed in out and will read it carefully later.... Another thing they failed to recognised is when the boards are a few years old the plain shank bullet heads will have nowhere near the holding power they have in a 1 week old deck board so would show far worse than a nail with a head be it flat domed what ever......


Go with screws!!!!

cheers Utemad:2tsup:

www.dialadeck.com.au

Interesting though, that the 50mm gal bullet heads are only out performed by the screw and two of the the machine driven nails out of a total of 18 fasteners.

Mick

An interesting article it was, although I am the first to see that it in no way takes into account longer term durability. It was nailem and pullem the next day kind of testing.

So being screwed is not so bad. :o

I'm about to put about 30m2 of WA Karri decking down on to hardwood (f17 ash) joists and am trying to get my head round what to fix it with. Not sure of this thread has made it easier or not!

Effectiveness aside, I what would the difference in cost and time to drive between:
i) Standard bullet head gals
ii) Titadecks
iii) Screws (gal or SS?)

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Originally Posted by Ben (TM)

I'm about to put about 30m2 of WA Karri decking down on to hardwood (f17 ash) joists and am trying to get my head round what to fix it with. Not sure of this thread has made it easier or not!

Effectiveness aside, I what would the difference in cost and time to drive between:
i) Standard bullet head gals
ii) Titadecks
iii) Screws (gal or SS?)

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Hi Ben

Cost you've listed them cheapest to dearest already...... Bullet head gal nails will be a little cheaper that titadecks but not enough to care and the stainless screws will cost around 150 - 200 bucks per thousand.... If your decking is 90mm you'll be looking at approx 1900 screws depending on deck shape and board lengths ..... Nails you might get away with 5kg at around 50 bucks and screws will cost 300 - 400 bucks......

Time wise assuming you are predrilling the boards no matter what you use.. the bullets will be quickeer than titadecks marginally cause you'll bend more of them than bullets but thats about all and the screws will take slightly longer as you have to countersink and screw them in ......
Assuming you buy the right counter sink and pilot in one and use an impact driver, if your not a chippy with a hammer you'd find the screws quicker and you would be able to work for longer periods without fatigue..
If you are a chippy with a hammer then nailing is quicker

Screw it with stainless its a job done once just check the joist hardness to see if you will need to pilot the joist cause this will add to the time but if its the case you'll most likely need to for the titadecks too so same o same

cheers utemad

www.dialadeck.com.au

Thanks Utemad, that's pretty much what I thought. I think I will end up using SS screws. Does anyone know of a SS screw supplier in Melbourne?

In terms of type - is the best fastener for my application a 10g 50mm with a square drive the best?

I only have a 14 volt Makita cordless drill - would this be OK for driving the screws or do I need a special driver with a clutch?

Also, where would I get a decent combination pilot / countersink bit? Given that I have 2000 odd holes to drill, I imagine that I'll need a few!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben (TM)

Thanks Utemad, that's pretty much what I thought. I think I will end up using SS screws. Does anyone know of a SS screw supplier in Melbourne?

In terms of type - is the best fastener for my application a 10g 50mm with a square drive the best?

I only have a 14 volt Makita cordless drill - would this be OK for driving the screws or do I need a special driver with a clutch?

Also, where would I get a decent combination pilot / countersink bit? Given that I have 2000 odd holes to drill, I imagine that I'll need a few!

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Hi Ben

the countersink we use is made by carbi-tool and cost about 45 bucks
model no...DCS 3.2 which obviously stands for drill-countersink-3.2mm
They are made in VIC so should be a piece of cake to get ........
The screws we get are Bremick or Macsim 10G type 17 countersunk sq drive stainless

Macsim no......17sscb1050 10 - 12 x 50mm 304 stainless

Bremick no... 10 - 12 x 50mm 304 stainless type 17 sq drive countersunk

Zenith....T17 countersunk ribbed sq drive decking screw
10 - 8 CDK9650 909175

Go for the macsim if you have a choice ....the zenith will be easy to get from bunning but has a coarser thread


As for your drill it will struggle a bit cause i use a 14.4 makita impact that has prob 5x the torque and we would us prob 5 batteries for a deck of 25m2.......


cheers utemad