Electric, Hybrid or Just Wait

It's looking very much like petrol cars, and possibly diesels, are fast becoming a thing of the past. The question is "should I buy a hybrid or go directly to fully electric for my next car". Can anyone with either type of vehicle provide comment? Do hybrids really provide significant reductions in fuel economy, that is >40%. I believe the vast majority of all electric cars being offered have a stated range of 150kms.

I know it depends on the type of driving you do, distance and location, but let's try to put that aside and gather as much data as we can to cover all the various circumstances you might encounter.

In my case, I drive 200 kms to the country a couple of times a month, and only drive 10-15kms twice a week in the city. Long trips of >1000kms are done once/year on average. Re-charging at home in Sydney is impossible for now.

mick

Mick, short range hybrids are intended to do two things, cover most if not all the average trip to work or the shopping centre and lower the average emission levels to comply with European legislation. The ECU has imposed lower levels of emissions on a fleet average from each manufacturer and from a date which escapes me if the manufacturer exceeds the fleet average required they will be fined MILLIONS of Euros per DAY for each breach. These fines are what is driving the charge to zero tail pipe emissions as it will bankrupt any manufacturer very fast.

Keep in mind that you will need a charger in both Oberon and Sydney and for your purposes a long range Tesla would seem to be the obvious choice. What I don't like about the Tesla is the stark interior and learning how to use the screen will be a task. I don't know what the high end European manufacturers have available in Oz but I was told yesterday by my son who works for Mazda that Mazda are going to introduce a third option in Oz and that is a range extender, they also intend to introduce a full electric vehicle this year but it it will be a metro only car due to lack of range.

The range extender will have a very small rotary motor driving a generator so when the battery voltage falls the generator kicks in and out as needed. To my knowledge this will be a first for cars in the world and should be ideal for Oz having no limit on electric range.

I would like to buy a full electric car but most of the capable ones are way more than I want or need to spend so I am going to wait and see what happens. A hybrid to me only increases the complication of a vehicle for no practical reason. If a full electric vehicle won't do the job then buy a car with an internal combustion engine in it. If anyone has some spare cash can they please buy me a Porsche Taycan, any colour will do.

I've spent a bit of time in my brother's Telsa and I'm sold on them. I would have bought one to replace our Subaru if SWMBO did not need a vehicle that was capable of towing a horse float with two horses I was also a bit put off by the stark interior of the Tesla but now I'm used to it. For me a vehicle should be primarily safe, require minimum attention, and be as unobtrusive as possible and it seems to do this very well.

FWIW my brother has been able to get his Air BNB property located about 60km from Perth designated as a Tesla destination changing point. Provided your electrical system can handle it this higher than average charging point is installed at no charge. His other semi-regular country run is 270km where there is a fast charging station.

Diesel for me for as long as we're allowed.
The goal is to keep the car I have and run it to the ground, depreciate it 10 times over. Stupid money pits.
I do however have an electric bicycle, same goal as above. Love the thing and ride it everywhere when it doesn't rain, only problem is it has some nylon cogs in the motor so it'll probably die earlier than the car.

Sorry for the totally irrelevant response :D

I bought a Toyota RAV4 hybrid. After 10,000kms averaging 5lts/100km. I live 10k out of Bundaberg, drive 2-3 times a week with trips to Brisbane.

Spyro nylon cogs are no problem if you have a 3D printer.:D

Battery tech is advancing so quickly that if you don't need a new car now, then it's worth waiting. I also have this (probably vain) hope that one of those fat, balding middle-age dinosaur politicians might actually face up to the future and get some incentives to go electric on the board.

Tesla are so far ahead of the game that I suspect it's going to be hard for traditional manufacturers to catch up - you'll need to skip ahead at times to avoid the bumpf, but this 2019 Tesla presentation will give you an idea of the incredible tech in their cars, and why they are so far ahead with their neural network and machine learning in the cars. There's a similar presentation on their battery tech.

The issue is price. They are just staggeringly expensive, as is cost of ownership (when I bought my oil-burner a couple of years ago, the Model S was the most expensive car to own in Aus). Australian models don;t seem to get all the features our international cousins do either - you can't get a tow hitch as a model 3 option here, whereas you can in Europe. The model Y is due sometime - it has a tow option in the US... who knows if we get it here. At the moment you'll need the most expensive tesla - the Model X - if you want to do anything as agricultural as towing.

The next gen Model S and X look a considerable step up, particularly with the interior (good to see an extra screen now as a more traditional instrument cluster) - due later this year or probably early next here as we are the butt-end of the world, I think they'd be worth waiting for if you have that kind of money to spend. I'm sure the tech will trickle down to the marginally less insanely expensive models.

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Originally Posted by fxst

Spyro nylon cogs are no problem if you have a 3D printer.:D

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I know, and 3D printers are not a problem if you have a factory that makes 3D printers, and so forth :D

No seriously I'd love a 3D printer, unfortunately I've run out of both space and time (to learn how to use it) :(

Just purely logical
In the LA Metro Area (LAMA) you can go 225 miles (365 Km) in a day point A to point B and return without thinking. An electric vehicle with a 250 or 275 range is pushing it but not impossible. Normal traffic in the LAMA can reduce range by 25% or 30%.

Putting petrol (gasoline) in a vehicle is typically a 5 to 10 minute task.

Restoring the energy in an electric vehicle to just half capacity is a 30 to 45 minute task at best.

An electrical vehicle would be ideal for my wife. Her 5 year old Explorer has less than 14,000 miles on it. She rarely drives beyond the city limits of Huntington Beach and then only less than 10 miles. An electric charging station connected to the shop (garage) electrical breaker panel could be easily self installed. (Yeah we can do that sort of stuff here without a sparky.)

Let's move from the logical into reality and enter into the candy a*r*s*e realm. I think that it has been 20 years since my wife put petrol into her vehicle. Even running the vehicle through a car wash probably has been at least 30 years but probably more. She is very good at reporting what warning lights and gauges say when things are not just right.

So, for her to plug the vehicle into the power point in the shop? Surely you jest. In our case, an electric would suffice until I kicked off. After that I don't know. In all probability a hybrid would be better for now and the years after I kick off. She could always go to the petrol station and ask for assistance.

There is another issue. I drive a F-150 pick-up truck. The F-150 is our primary vehicle when going some place and hauling home timber. BTW - The F-150 rides better than the Explorer and gets much better mileage. Don't bring mileage into the conversation. It is the driver but my wife doesn't believe it. Also the F-150 is much more comfortable sitting and just getting in and out. We are old pharts so that is understandable.

When we travel (Las Vegas, Phoenix, Portland Oregon) we use the F-150. These destinations do not have charging stations. There are few charging stations along the route. Most of the charging stations are of the "park it here all day" types. Using anything other than a petroleum based fuel is just not practicable for the F-150. Would hybrid work in the F-150? Yes it probably would be OK and the added weight of the batteries would only improve the ride. But if you already have the internal combustion motor, why deal with the complication of hybrid? Besides the initial cost would take years to even out vs. a pure internal combustion motor. What I'm seeing here is about $4000US premium for hybrid.

This doesn't answer the question but when has that ever stopped me? :D

Having dealt with a lot of different rental cars here in Japan, I have to say, some of the small capacity (1.0L) motors with twin turbo/superchargers/whatever magic they do to them matched with CVT's of all kinds, are kind of incredible. Some of the ugly, boxy cars here are my favourite now. Impossibly practical, more go than you'd think they have any right to give, and stupidly low consumption. I'm not convinced the combustion engine is at the end of its life just yet, though the days are numbered.

500km range from a 5 minute charge, and we'll be there. I suspect that is a lot closer than we imagine, and I think it will be the Japanese that do it with Korea and China bringing it to the masses.

We are in the limbo between full electric and the end of ICE with the hybrid as a band aid to get us over the hump. Mick, you have been used to driving European cars and I reckon getting into a Tesla would be a major shock and learning to use it would be a bigger one. They are number 1 at the moment but the Europeans are just getting their act together and Volvo is one of the leaders. Jaguar announced the other day that every new model released from 2021 onwards would be full electric but they haven't released any new models as yet. You can hire a Tesla to get the feel for it and that might be a good idea and give me ride if you do. Rent or test drive a Tesla in Australia l Electric car hire | evee

Would you be interested in taking a classic car and putting in an electric motor/battery management system?

I personally find these to be an attractive proposition. The cars are nicer, more stylish.


One could get the car, have it professionally restored, put an evil electric motor in and it would go like lightning.

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Originally Posted by Bernmc

Tesla are so far ahead of the game that I suspect it's going to be hard for traditional manufacturers to catch up - you'll need to skip ahead at times to avoid the bumpf, but this 2019 Tesla presentation will give you an idea of the incredible tech in their cars, and why they are so far ahead with their neural network and machine learning in the cars. There's a similar presentation on their battery tech..

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Yep , their data integration is quickly leaving everything else in the dust.
The first thing Tesla recommended my brother did with his car was to park it within a trusted WIFI network whereby it upgraded its software and it does that every few weeks. At the same time it backloads a heap of driver data to Telsa. They use this data to improve their cars and as of late last year Telsa had over 1 billion miles of "experience data" from its cars. THE nearest competitor had was around 10 million miles of data.

My brother's Model 3 has a 3rd party tow hitch. Probably a copy of the European version, - it's not strictly approved but apparently many owners are putting them on. The car knows when it's towing and reports this - free testing for Telsa is probably they way they look at it.

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

Would you be interested in taking a classic car and putting in an electric motor/battery management system?

I personally find these to be an attractive proposition. The cars are nicer, more stylish.


One could get the car, have it professionally restored, put an evil electric motor in and it would go like lightning.

Attachment 489789 Attachment 489790

Ssseeexxyyyy!!!!!!

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It's an idea but I think I'll stick with tailor made. I also like the car to corner and stop; more or less matching the power plant.

It's a bit off topic but SWMBO has just traded her Mazda 3 for a Fiat Abarth 595 Competizione. Abarth 595 & 595C | Abarth® Australia (fiat.com.au) NOW THAT'S A CAR! BTW Chris, if this is an example of a modern petrol powered car, the electronic systems are unbelievably complicated. I thought aircraft systems were bad enough and there's no simulator available.

Back on topic, it looks like the fuel economy of the RAV4 drops from 9.1L/100Km to 5.3L/100Km. I agree with the additional complexity argument and it may suit an Uber driver, but I can't see the value in a hybrid.

If I only did relatively short hops, I'd jump into an EV right now; possibly a Tesla. But I want the flexibility and convenience of my current vehicles. I could deal with a 15 minute break every 200 kms but there just aren't enough fast recharging stations in rural locations to make it worthwhile. I live in an apartment in Sydney and like most, there are no power outlets in the garage, much less in each car space. Goodness knows how many amps would be needed to recharge multiple cars overnight in a block of flats.

I wonder why no one has come up with a car which allows a fully charged battery swap.

I think I'll wait for EVs to catch up. I

mick :)

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Originally Posted by q9

500km range from a 5 minute charge, and we'll be there. I suspect that is a lot closer than we imagine, and I think it will be the Japanese that do it with Korea and China bringing it to the masses.

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It's not the range that's holding it back, it's the cost.
Make it cheaper to buy+run than the similar petrol ones and people will buy them, range or no range.

Something that bothers me about batteries in electric cars is the cost to first produce the battery, the cost of replacing them and the inability to recycle the batteries.
I’ve also heard that in newer cheaper electric cars the batteries are in the substructure of the floor pan and aren’t replaceable.
Sorry folk I’m a fan of the style & sounds of old school muscle cars and electric doesn’t cut it.
Cheers crowie

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Originally Posted by Glider

If I only did relatively short hops, I'd jump into an EV right now; possibly a Tesla. But I want the flexibility and convenience of my current vehicles. I could deal with a 15 minute break every 200 kms but there just aren't enough fast recharging stations in rural locations to make it worthwhile. I live in an apartment in Sydney and like most, there are no power outlets in the garage, much less in each car space. Goodness knows how many amps would be needed to recharge multiple cars overnight in a block of flats.

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It turns put that it's not that bad.
Large blocks of flats are able to draw many hundreds of amp feeds from the grid and from about midnight to dawn flat occupants use stuff all power so they could be charging car batteries during this time. In most cases fast charging is not needed so midnight to 6am charging should be OK. A Tesla 16A 3P wall charger adds about 75km per hour of charge to the battery so 6 hours will almost top up a near flat battery. Not every one will be completely recharging their batteries every night - just like most people don't fill up with fuel everyday so I don't think power is an issue. Large blocks of flats can also fit very large solar PV systems most of which they don't use but cars at home during the day could charge up from this power source.

On unit charging, in my block of flats, all the cars are parked down stairs.

When I enquired whether a recharger could be added to my spot, the body corp had absolutely no problem with this as long as it was metered.

Of course I had to pay for the install, but this wasn't too onerous.


I suggested that they install a few public chargers in the visitor parking, but they did not want to do this.... even though it added value to the block.... cest les vie.

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Originally Posted by Bernmc

Tesla are so far ahead of the game that I suspect it's going to be hard for traditional manufacturers to catch up

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Maybe in the tech department, but Tesla still has a LOT of catching up to do in terms of actually being able to build cars properly.

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Originally Posted by Spyro

It's not the range that's holding it back, it's the cost.
Make it cheaper to buy+run than the similar petrol ones and people will buy them, range or no range.

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Short range is an impediment to large scale up take. More range = more demand = higher volumes = lower cost. Eventually.

I'd not bet against the established players just yet.

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Originally Posted by crowie

Something that bothers me about batteries in electric cars is the cost to first produce the battery, the cost of replacing them and the inability to recycle the batteries.

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There are developments in recycling tech happening. An Aussie mob called Envirostream says they can reclaim some 90% by weight of old batteries for re-use, and they're surely not the only ones working on it. I think I heard that there are also programs to ship them to developing countries to use as power storage for village solar setups; they can still hold a charge, just not enough to be useful in a car.

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Sorry folk I’m a fan of the style & sounds of old school muscle cars and electric doesn’t cut it.

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+1
Not muscle, but rice-burning VTEC yo :p 6-speed manual and 9000 rpm can't be replaced by the sound of a souped up Dyson

Can I ask what the main motivation(s) for buying an electric car are?

Is it on environmental grounds?

Is it on an overall cost of ownership basis?

Is it just because it's new and 'cool'?

Is it for some performance/functional reasons?

I ask because the answer may be significantly different under each.

On environmental grounds i'd say that keeping your current for as long as possible, maintaining it, driving it with mechanical sympathy and in an efficient way, and perhaps most importantly avoiding driving where possible is the least impactful to the environment overall.

If it's cost of ownership i'd say it's unlikely to be a good idea yet.

If it's for cool points then buy now while it's still cool and not the norm - then we'll be fondly reminising about petrol cars.

If it's functional / performance fair enough - although petrol is still better here.

Also, I don't want a car that logs my movements and usage or requires software updates or is monitored / connected at all times. No thankyou.

Cheers, Dom

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Originally Posted by DomAU

On environmental grounds i'd say that keeping your current for as long as possible, maintaining it, driving it with mechanical sympathy and in an efficient way, and perhaps most importantly avoiding driving where possible is the least impactful to the environment overall.

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Ehhh...I'm not so sure about that

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If it's cost of ownership i'd say it's unlikely to be a good idea yet.

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Again, not so sure. Your ongoing maintenance costs are basically nothing because nearly all the consumables on normal cars don't exist with an EV; all you have left is wiper blades, tyres and brake pads (which you'd need to buy anyway), and you won't have to replace the pads nearly as often because of regenerative braking via the motor.

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If it's functional / performance fair enough - although petrol is still better here.

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Depends what kind of performance you mean; petrol still wins around a track in most cases (the Porsche Taycan might have something to say about that), but, if all you want to do is mash the accelerator and teleport down the road, you can't beat a top end Tesla in a straight line this side of $1m

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Originally Posted by Glider

I wonder why no one has come up with a car which allows a fully charged battery swap.

I think I'll wait for EVs to catch up. I

mick :)

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Nisan tried the battery replacement in Israel years ago and the idea fell over badly. Tesla are taking the opposite approach with making the batteries an integral part of the car. Right now I think it is too early for anyone who regularly commutes in rural areas over longish distances in Oz. It can be done but most people would not like the restrictions it places on their trips. The last long trip I did was 11 hours straight without getting out of the car but then I have done that sort of driving since I got a license.

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Originally Posted by elanjacobs

Ehhh...I'm not so sure about that


Again, not so sure. Your ongoing maintenance costs are basically nothing because nearly all the consumables on normal cars don't exist with an EV; all you have left is wiper blades, tyres and brake pads (which you'd need to buy anyway), and you won't have to replace the pads nearly as often because of regenerative braking via the motor.


Depends what kind of performance you mean; petrol still wins around a track in most cases (the Porsche Taycan might have something to say about that), but, if all you want to do is mash the accelerator and teleport down the road, you can't beat a top end Tesla in a straight line this side of $1m

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I reckon if you totalled up all of the carbon emissions and environmental damage related to the manufacturing of a car (including mining and manufacturing steel - which is one of the largest sources of carbon emissions alongside concrete) as well as the impact of lithium mining, it would take many many many years to offset that purely from fuel use - and you'd need to be doing many km's. Hence not producing another car, prolonging the life of existing cars and avoiding their use (ride a bike, take public transport, carpool etc) would be the best option.

In terms of cost, other than the engine, gearbox and radiator you still have brakes, suspension, wheel bearings, filters, air-con, bushings, tyres, etc. But yeah I'm sure you do save some on engine oil & filters, timing belts, cooling system etc. Though given the high purchase price vs petrol and likely depreciation as tech improves i'm not sure the total cost of ownership would be lower - assuming that the battery lasts as long as claimed and that you don't have electronic issues.

In terms of performance - straight line acceleration off the line is impressive but also the least important aspect - I suspect the handling of a nearly 2 tonne Tesla would pale in comparison to a similarly priced car from the big auto makers.

Cheers, Dom

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Originally Posted by DomAU

I reckon if you totalled up all of the carbon emissions and environmental damage related to the manufacturing of a car (including mining and manufacturing steel - which is one of the largest sources of carbon emissions alongside concrete) as well as the impact of lithium mining, it would take many many many years to offset that purely from fuel use - and you'd need to be doing many km's. Hence not producing another car, prolonging the life of existing cars and avoiding their use (ride a bike, take public transport, carpool etc) would be the best option.

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I agree that avoiding their use is very important but as we are an ageing population with crappy public transport system I can't see that happening.

Even using just fossil fuel powered electricity to charge batteries recent research shows a significant reduction in environmental damage.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s418...heguardian.com

As soon as renewables are used for recharging it's game over.

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In terms of cost, other than the engine, gearbox and radiator you still have brakes, suspension, wheel bearings, filters, air-con, bushings, tyres, etc. But yeah I'm sure you do save some on engine oil & filters, timing belts, cooling system etc. Though given the high purchase price vs petrol and likely depreciation as tech improves i'm not sure the total cost of ownership would be lower - assuming that the battery lasts as long as claimed and that you don't have electronic issues..

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Conventional vehicles don't have electronic issues???

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In terms of performance - straight line acceleration off the line is impressive but also the least important aspect - I suspect the handling of a nearly 2 tonne Tesla would pale in comparison to a similarly priced car from the big auto makers.

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"Pale" is a big claim.
Have a look at this - skip through to the 19 minute mark for the lap times.
It turns out that all that acceleration is really useful for coming out of corners.
You have to remember that Audi and BMW have bout a century of motoring heritage to draw on whereas EV manufacturers have ~1/5th of that

Forgot to add that my brother who has owned several Audis and BMWs (and currency has 6 cafe racers) pretty much agrees with that track test. He's reached that stage in his life where he just wants hassle free (mainly city) motoring. He was very concerned about the charging aspects but he says that he's used to is now and has yet to be caught short.

I do realise EVs still don't suit a lot of Aussies needs, like I said we needed 2 tone towing capacity for the next 2-3 years and couldn't wait for something like the cyber trick so we went for a basic Diesel 4WD.

The Tesla has near nil service costs compared to an ICE powered car. Brake life can be +200,000 kms because of regen braking which effectively gives the driver one foot driving as the brake pedal in normal start stop is never used. All the oily bits plus the entire drive line are gone, and it is those especially the transmission that produce the most maintenance problems. A vast majority of mechanical work is replacing transmissions, turbos whole motors etc and that is done every day as a routine job to many many cars. The forecast is that with the arrival of BEV's the workload will be so low that service depts will shed the majority of staff. The service schedule for a Tesla is seen here a few minor items annually Car Maintenance | Tesla Australia Looking at that you will appreciate why the service side of the motor industry is going to be decimated in the long term.

Every argument and problem listed in this thread has been aired elsewhere thousands of times and most of the problems raised have proven to be wrong many times over. The BEV at the moment is not a good fit for Oz because of the lack of infrastructure to support it and remote area operation is sill not possible and it will be interesting to see where the ICE vehicles come from when Europe shuts down the production of them.

The European legislators have taken a hard nosed approach and have legislated for zero tail pipe emissions by certain dates and these are backed by crippling punitive fines which will bankrupt even the major manufacturers if they are not met. Tesla are selling carbon credits to several manufacturers who are lagging in their emissions reduction program and Fiat is one of those companies.

When I visited the US in 2006 I met an environmental scientist in the US EPA who was relatively "green". He had a solar passive house with an organic waste recycling system, and even back then he had solar panels. Normally he cycled to work and most other places but on days he drove to work his daily drive car was a mint condition 454 Chevy behemoth that he bought new in 1970 and it had since done less than 150k miles and had done all the repairs and servicing himself. I went for several sides in it and reckon you could sit 5 people on each of the front and back bench seats in that thing.

Eventually I got to know him well enough to ask how he justified ownership of such a vehicle in view of his "green-ness"?

He told me he had done a full carbon budget on it and explained that as he only did about 4000 miles a year in that car he reckoned the car had at least 10 more years of life in it it was less carbon polluting than buying a new car. However he did say that whenever the time came he was going to buy an electric vehicle. This came in 2015 when developed heath probs and could no longer cycle to work and had to drive everywhere. The good thing was he had kept the car in such good condition that he was able to sell it for close to the cost of the electric vehicle he ended up purchasing.

It's a interesting story but I don't think it's that applicable to many Australians living in public transport-less 'burbs

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Originally Posted by BobL

I agree that avoiding their use is very important but as we are an ageing population with crappy public transport system I can't see that happening.

Even using just fossil fuel powered electricity to charge batteries recent research shows a significant reduction in environmental damage.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s418...heguardian.com

As soon as renewables are used for recharging it's game over.


Conventional vehicles don't have electronic issues???



"Pale" is a big claim.
Have a look at this - skip through to the 19 minute mark for the lap times.
It turns out that all that acceleration is really useful for coming out of corners.
You have to remember that Audi and BMW have bout a century of motoring heritage to draw on whereas EV manufacturers have ~1/5th of that

Forgot to add that my brother who has owned several Audis and BMWs (and currency has 6 cafe racers) pretty much agrees with that track test. He's reached that stage in his life where he just wants hassle free (mainly city) motoring. He was very concerned about the charging aspects but he says that he's used to is now and has yet to be caught short.

I do realise EVs still don't suit a lot of Aussies needs, like I said we needed 2 tone towing capacity for the next 2-3 years and couldn't wait for something like the cyber trick so we went for a basic Diesel 4WD.

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Top Gear's assessment of the Model 3's handling - "the remote, synthetic steering feels like it’s come off an early Xbox rig and the brakes are mushy.

The Performance can be coaxed into powerslides, but you can sense the sheer mass heaving around in direction changes and the Model 3 feels out of sorts when pushed..."

Also, in the recent reliability survey conducted by J.D. Power Tesla ranked dead last with 2.5 issues per car sold in the first months of ownership, further - “They are exclusive and look great and do some very good things, but they aren’t that reliable and when they break, they are not easy to fix,” Fisher said. Regardless, Fisher said he enjoys driving Teslas.

So in terms of both performance and reliability / cost of ownership i'm not convinced.

I agree that the impact to the environment is likely lower for an EV vs an equivalent IC vehicle, however that was not my point. The impact would certainly be lower not producing another vehicle to begin with, and prolonging use of the vehicles we already have vs disposing of them prematurely. If nobody had a car and we were starting fresh then yes, EV would likely be better for the environment. But the rate of production would also have an impact - if we want vast quantities of metals, lithium, etc in a hurry to quickly convert all vehicles over, it's likely to lead to less than desirable practises from an enviornmental standpoint.

I think it's the future, amd rightly so, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing for the environment trying to convert all IC vehicles to electric asap. And obviously any car is net bad for the environment - just how bad will vary.

Cheers, Dom

I wouldnt necessarily rate Top gears assessment of anything better than the guys in the vid link I supplied. Drive Feel is highly subjective and is not something even experienced drivers can get used to quickly especially if they have only driven conventional cars.

In 20 years time we’ll be asking ourselves what the fuss was all about.

Shall we talk about driverless cars? I can’t wait. I used to be a very keen driver and would drive anywhere just to go for a drive, now I’d rather be doing something else like sleeping.

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Originally Posted by BobL

I wouldnt necessarily rate Top gears assessment of anything better than the guys in the vid link I supplied. Drive Feel is highly subjective and is not something even experienced drivers can get used to quickly especially if they have only driven conventional cars.

In 20 years time we’ll be asking ourselves what the fuss was all about.

Shall we talk about driverless cars? I can’t wait. I used to be a very keen driver and would drive anywhere just to go for a drive, now I’d rather be doing something else like sleeping.

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Ha. I am for driverless cars for those that don't like to drive and that would prefer to look at their phones. But it'll be a sad day when the enjoyment of driving a car or riding a motorbike is taken from us. I will feel far safer as a cyclist however.

Cheers, Dom

An offering for driverless cars will be an absolute goldmine-goldrush-space-explosion for the economy.

-- I will be able to go back to work as my disabled wife no longer needs me as a taxi
-- She will have independence, not having to ask me to drive her to appointments/hospital/places, even though I'm happy to do it
-- Custom cars based on function, rather than generic offerings.... special vehicles for the disabled, ages, immobile, bulky.... face to face like the Sydney trains... Bobbles, large windows, pope mobiles :)

-- People can pre-book a trip to work, group with others, save money
-- Fewer car parking spots in the city centre!
-- Fewer cars on the road!

-- Deliveries can be entirely automated. Bunnings puts your parcel into Compartment 17 of Auto-Truck and 5 minutes before it arrives a message pops up on your phone "Come and Get It!".... you press a button on the phone, it pops open the door to Compartment 17 with your stuff..... no people! .... off it trundles to the next delivery.

-- Bookings, Wheres My Car, pre-booking, per KM charging, ping for pickup.... all on the phone. Perfection.

-- While some will need a car, most will not.
-- A collection of 20 cars would service 500 people.... less traffic.
-- Less noise. Fewer hoons. Time to sleep, read, email, watch a video, chat with the kids.....
-- Have the kids picked up from a party.... same for if you've had too much pisso at the soiree :)

-- If it needs a charge, off it goes to a public spot and auto-plugs itself in. Pop these centres around the place.
-- Increased "security" as they can be all mounted with 80 cameras, all beaming a 5G signal to home base in case of ...strife....

There will be no need for tradies to give up their utes... but for the average suburban Joe? Owning a car will be pure stupidity.

For the tradies, why not have auto-cars that are essentially sotrage/delivery boxes? Deliver stuff to the worksite... chuck all the tools into a box at the end of the day and off it trundles to a secure overnight storage (where I live, there have been 2 guys knocked off of EVERYTHING in the last month).

HUGE HUGE HUGE opportunities.

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Originally Posted by BobL

Have a look at this - skip through to the 19 minute mark for the lap times.

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Originally Posted by BobL

I wouldnt necessarily rate Top gears assessment of anything better than the guys in the vid link I supplied.

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Bob, no vid link???

Sorry to be "that guy", but fully autonomous is not coming any time soon for a few reasons.

1) The technology is nowhere near ready. Maybe on a closed loop where the autonomous traffic is completely isolated from pedestrians and human drivers, but it's simply not able to cope with a dynamic road at this stage.
2) Liability. Who's responsible in an accident? It can't be you because you're not driving it, so who's it gonna be? The car manufacturer? The software developer? Or maybe it's still you because you're the owner? What if it's a taxi or rental? It's a legal minefield.
3) And this is the big one. In order for a fully autonomous car to be able to navigate a live traffic scenario, where decisions about evasive action will need to be made, ethics has to be mathematically solved. You've probably heard of the Trolley Problem; an autonomous car will need to be able to make that decision, which means that someone (or group of people) will have to write the code that decides who gets to live. Then, every time you get inside, you will have to accept that, based on a computer program written on the other side of the world by people you will never know, your car might decide to swerve into a tree and potentially kill you because someone ran onto the road, or, even worse, because a dodgy sensor or camera thought someone ran onto the road.

These are massive issues that need to be tackled before there's any hope of fully autonomous cars becoming a reality and I don't think it will happen.

Not everyone will like his style, but he lays out the pros & cons very well.
12 things I've learned after driving an electric car 9000km | Auto Expert John Cadogan - YouTube

Ive got a 2019 Prius and routinely get 3.0 litres per 100km of a 26km commute I love the dam thing best car I have ever owned will step up to another Prius when they upgrade the battery then full electric Tesla after decking out the Roof with Solar Panels with the biggest BAttery I can afford

Im not a spread sheet nutbuster in a binary + - Dollar world To My Mind you cant put a price on reducing your carbon footprint!

Why because of our Kids kids if we dont get our )(*&#$^%(*&#_^*&^ together they will inherit our self centred greed and selfishness ................Well after its to late!


Anywhoooo every little thing we can do helps The Prius also got voted most reliable car of 2020 from memory (From a well regarded consumer survey) Its Not A Rocket but a graceful glider! The Stereo system also ROCKS!

My 5 Cents worth

REgards Lou :D

Oh by they way many moons before this I rode nothing but big bore Jap bikes topping out on a ZZR-1100 (FAstest Production Bike at the time) Didnt own a car till 28 who would a thought LOL!

In terms of car costs nothing beats new car depreciation.
There are some acceptable reasons to buy a new car, saving money is not one of them, that's just something we tell our wives.
You'd have to have a total old guzzler/wreck and replace it with a very cheap new car to *maybe* make that equation work.

In terms of environmental concerns, nothing beats not driving a car as much as possible. Except not owning a car.
Try an electric bike if you can, you might like it. It's a legitimate transportation option if you don't have passengers, but look around you, 90% of the cars on the road only have one person in them.
Moving a tonne of steel just to get one person from A to B is ridiculously wasteful, how often do we really need to do that?

And please don't tell me about speed, it's Australia, slowest speed limits and strictest traffic police in the universe. I can break those speed limits with your average scooter.

Having said all that, if a car makes you happy, it's your passion/hobby/deep desire/whatever, absolutely get that car! Happiness is very important and all the justification that is required.
I just don't like rationalising it with other stuff, in my experience rationalisations lead to unhappiness.

I don't see the point in having an electric car when you have to charge it from a fossil fuel burning powerstation - it's like arguing a murder charge on the basis that you used a knife instead of a gun.

My sis in Norway has had electric cars (currently 2 Teslas) for many years, and the Norwegian government embraces them with free parking & tolls, lower rego and sales tax plus other benefits - but Norway gets most of their power from hydro-electric so it IS clean energy.
To me, as long they're being charged from a fossil fuel burning power source electric cars are tokenism.

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Originally Posted by smidsy

I don't see the point in having an electric car when you have to charge it from a fossil fuel burning powerstation - it's like arguing a murder charge on the basis that you used a knife instead of a gun.

My sis in Norway has had electric cars (currently 2 Teslas) for many years, and the Norwegian government embraces them with free parking & tolls, lower rego and sales tax plus other benefits - but Norway gets most of their power from hydro-electric so it IS clean energy.
To me, as long they're being charged from a fossil fuel burning power source electric cars are tokenism.

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Smidsy

After being the harbinger of doom, I think you nailed the issue in your second and third paragraphs. It depends entirely on the source of the mains power electricity. So hydro, solar and wind generated power represents a real benefit in terms of reducing greenhouse gases. Having said that, the efficiencies of thermal coal (or gas) fired power stations are still better than a petrol or diesel powered car so there will be a small benefit.

Although, a self confessed fan of solar power, it is short sighted to think there will be an instantaneous transition. An electric car purchased today may still reap the benefit down the track.

Just for amusement The White Zombie is a 1972 Datsun that was converted to electric power back in the nineties way before EVs became cool (if they are cool that is). My memory is that the creator used to drive it around on the street as his everyday transport. Here are a few videos of this car that looks similar to the one your favourite, ancient auntie drives to the shops.


White Zombie vs maserati - YouTube

Running On Lithium: White Zombie vs. Corvette - YouTube

White Zombie Electric Dragster Coming to Auto Show 2011 - YouTube

The White Zombie with Lithium polymer battery pack - YouTube

Instant full torque in an electric motor means that in a drag race all the damage is done in the first two hundred meters while the combustion engines are still building revs. However, it would probably be a different result over a standing mile.

Just in case you think I am full of electrical bullmanure, I am. My disclaimer is that I work as an operator in a coal-fired, supercritical power station. I like to think I am a realist both in terms of fossil fuels and renewables.

Regards
Paul