Permit for removing wall, or not?

Hi, I'm hoping to remove an L-shaped wall in my kitchen to open things up. The wall is load bearing so was planning to get builder to do things. I called my local council today and asked whether I need a permit for this sort of job and was expecting that I wouldnt because it is internal work. But I was quite wrong, and was told that a permit would be needed because it is structural and it would cost about $550. Does this seem right? I was a bit shocked by this and am wondering if it is really neccessary if I have a professional builder do all the work to spec anyway. Or will I not find a builder willing to do the work without a permit?

Number one if the wall is load bearing and you remove it you need to support the load by another stucture such as a beam, yes most coucils do require a permit for such work, to be truthfull I don't know anybody who has bothered to obtain one, many builders will do the work but will not want to know if you have any problems with the council

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Originally Posted by noideamad

. Does this seem right? I was a bit shocked by this and am wondering if it is really neccessary if I have a professional builder do all the work to spec anyway. Or will I not find a builder willing to do the work without a permit?

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A professional builder will likely not want to place at risk their licence to work . . . which they will if they do work that requires approval by council. Which is not to say you won't find someone who will do it for you - they just won't be a 'professional' IMHO.

Often seems silly for small jobs, but changes to load bearing structures are too important to try to take shortcuts. If you say that it is to be done to spec then it will be little extra trouble to get it submitted and approved - and then you are covered for your own safety in the house, liability potential, insurance, future sale potential and so on.

Mostly it requires nothing more than a sketch of the change on a plan and a description of the work. Sometimes the builder will need to talk through with a certifier what he plans to do as most of these jobs do not need an engineer's certificate.

Ultimately it is your risk and your decision - is a bit of running around and a $550 fee worth the potential problems you might face with an un-approved structure.

I tend to agree with you there Bloss. A little bit of cost now might save me big bucks later on and so I probably will go the way of getting permits etc. However I have heard some stories of people trying to do the right thing by applying with council regs but then being forced to meet a whole bunch of other regulations that have nothing to do with the original permit and there fore costing a lot more than the original permit was meant to cost.
Has anyone had any experiences like this? I'd be very interested to hear of some others experiences, good or bad, trying to do the 'right' thing!

You will only be required to meet regs pertaining to the project.
If it was a major reno, say more than 50% of the home then you may be required to upgrade items espec. to do with health & safety.

What size water tank will you end up with, round here if you ask council for anything they make you put in a tank as a condition of the approval.

Mine was 3000ltr.

I'm about to embark on a similar sort of thing. As part of the bathroom reno, I will be taking out a wall, about 2m, to extend into one of the bedrooms.

When I spoke to the council, the bloke said "yep, permit required".

So I got in touch with a local drafstman to get some plans drawn up. When I told him what I was wanting to do, he said so long as it wasn't a load bearing wall, and I wasn't changing the exterior structure, I wouldn't need a permit.

My thoughts were that the council guy heard the words 'wall' and 'remove' in the same sentence and defaulted to saying 'permit'. The draftsman I spoke to actually took the time to discuss with me what I was wanting to do, and the extent of the work, and based on that, told me I wouldn't need one.

So, the upshot of it all is that I really have no idea if I actually need to get a permit for what I want to do. The one thing I do have in my favour, is the council don't have the full plans for my house, only for an small extension on the back, but nothing for the front where the bathroom is.

Confusing.

If the wall is not load bering it is not considered structural so you won't need a permit ( in SA )

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Originally Posted by Make it work

What size water tank will you end up with, round here if you ask council for anything they make you put in a tank as a condition of the approval.

Mine was 3000ltr.

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Same thing happened to me last few months. I put off getting approval to finish the downstairs bathroom until Feb this year (new regulations came in on 1 st january 2008) and discovered I not only had to put in a water tank - I have to get wels rated water efficient taps, shower heads and dual flush loos everywhere in the house - cost about another 8Kto the cost doing the bathroom (luckily i had already replaced the existing taps etc upstairs - But what a shocker if you try and do new work now.

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Originally Posted by atregent

So, the upshot of it all is that I really have no idea if I actually need to get a permit for what I want to do. The one thing I do have in my favour, is the council don't have the full plans for my house, only for an small extension on the back, but nothing for the front where the bathroom is.

Confusing.

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Just check if the new water regulations will apply to you if the council is involved. as allan said they can make you get a tank - a new kitchen - even re landscape to make your property "compliant". For an existing bathroom I would keep quiet. If they dont have drainage plans for your property they'll ask for new ones - another $500 or so.

and the above hsould give a rather big hint of what to do! About the only thing a council approval gives you is protection for an occupancy certificate when you sell - but i've personally never seen an inspector for those check any plans - they do simple stuff , like check balustrades or anything really simple that takes less than 1 minute.

Your insurance however is a different matter, if I was worried I'd pay a few hundred for an engineers report, and save the $500 from the money grabbers, because the engineers report will satiate council as well in the future should you have a problem with an over zealous inspector.

certainly in my city, for small jobs like that, most builders wouldnt demand a council approval - they know that just adds to the cost, and almost assures them that they have wasted their time in coming to quote and advise - they'll inform the home owner of the rules, but then say something like "but most people dont seem to - totally upto you"

Hi thanks for the replies. Well I've had a builder in to have a look and it seems that it is much easier job than I first thought, according to the builder I got in anyway.
This builder made it sound so simple, just throw a couple of beams up there and job done. And although he did consult his span and load tables before calling me back with his quote I was a bit sceptical about him because of the way he kept telling me "It'll be right, it wont fall down or anything!"
How important is diagonal bracing in these old walls?

Also, if putting a new joist hanging beam in, and supporting it by the outside wall top plate, is it common practice to diagonally cut one end of it off to fit it in under the roof line? Or does this immediately weaken the beam that you are putting in?

I will get a couple more builders to have a look, but I am also thinking that I will feel a lot more comfortable getting a structural engineers input aswell.

How much should I expect to have to pay an engineer to certify the work, and what is involved?

Cheers

cutting diagonally doesnt weaken things - there are specs in the stds as to whats acceptable, but its a common procedure.

Engineer depends a lot on how busy they are - really you'd be better off using one the builder uses a lot imo - for a one off job they might say oh $900, for the builder $300 - personally I'd be happy with the builders opinion - its not rocket science, and he has to guarantee his work - and bendigo's a small town! ;)

Get a certifier, not just an engineer. Councils do not always accept a Structural Engineers inspection unless they are also a registered building certifier. It is better to engage the Engineer to design the beam as the builder will just try and use span tables. Just be sure to use an engineer that has experience in residential timber construction (like me). Unfortunately for you I am in NSW.

A builder who hasnt got a permit will not be guaranteeing anything. If you need to put beams in it needs a permit. If you need to be relying on the builders advice then you definetaly should be getting a permit.