Isopropyl Alcohol 100% or Denatured Alcohol for Shellac?

My question is inspired from a recent article from Lost art press on mixing shellac. Chris Schwarz in short uses Everclear to dissolve the shellac flakes as opposed to denatured alcohol for reason being that everclear dissolves the flakes completely while the latter doesn't. For those who don't know Everclear is grain alcohol that can be bought in a liquor in the US.
Considering I've had dissolving issues in the past until recently and I'll get to that in a second, I was very excited about Everclear. Everclear isn't sold in Australia but Isopropyl 100% not the other 70% stuff is and is a good substitute for Everclear or grain alcohol as I was told by a fellow Aussie.

Some say that Isopropyl isn't that great for shellac due to it not evaporating as quickly as denatured alcohol. Is this true? This statement totally derives from the yanks and they all make mention of the Isopropyl that's contains 70% isopropyl and 30%water, which in my books shouldn't be used at all. I am wondering though is the 100% or 98.99% Isopropyl just as good as Denatured Alcohol?

Just to clarify why I've had dissolving issues. The shellac flakes I tried to dissolve previously was several years old, since I bought a fresh batch and a magnetic stirrer, they dissolved completely within two hours.

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Originally Posted by section1

My question is inspired from a recent article from Lost art press on mixing shellac. Chris Schwarz in short uses Everclear to dissolve the shellac flakes as opposed to denatured alcohol for reason being that everclear dissolves the flakes completely while the latter doesn't. For those who don't know Everclear is grain alcohol that can be bought in a liquor in the US.

Considering I've had dissolving issues in the past until recently and I'll get to that in a second, I was very excited about Everclear. Everclear isn't sold in Australia but Isopropyl 100% not the other 70% stuff is and is a good substitute for Everclear or grain alcohol as I was told by a fellow Aussie.

Some say that Isopropyl isn't that great for shellac due to it not evaporating as quickly as denatured alcohol. Is this true? This statement totally derives from the yanks and they all make mention of the Isopropyl that's contains 70% isopropyl and 30%water, which in my books shouldn't be used at all. I am wondering though is the 100% or 98.99% Isopropyl just as good as Denatured Alcohol?

Just to clarify why I've had dissolving issues. The shellac flakes I tried to dissolve previously was several years old, since I bought a fresh batch and a magnetic stirrer, they dissolved completely within two hours.

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This is what I know ...

100% ethanol (aka grain alcohol) is drinkable. In Australia ethanol is almost always retailed as "metho" and is denatured with either a bittering agent to make it taste worst than "horrible" to discourage alcoholics from drinking it.

"Metho" is an abbreviation for methanol -- it is not ethanol (although ethanol plus a bittering agent is mostly sold as "metho"). I'm not entirely sure how methanol is produced, but importantly methanol is poisonous which is why it is mixed with a bittering agent to make it taste horrible. Drinking methanol tends to send people blind.

Isopropynol is also not ethanol. Commercially it is primarily produced by combining water and propene in a hydration, or by hydrigenerating acetone.
Isopropynol is not drinkable. That is unless you are a really desperate alcoholic.


I've always used Bunnings' sourced "metho" to dissolve shellac flakes. Note that the "metho" I got from Bunnings was really ethanol -- which if I understand your question correctly is the "same" as the Everclear available in the US.


Just remember that commercial "metho" can contain up to 50% water.
Dissolving shellac flakes in fluid containing more than about 5% water is problematic.

Section1

You probably cannot do much better than refer to the Ubeaut website in the Shellac area. My understanding is that if possible you should use IMS, which is 100% Ethanol, and stands for Industrial Methylated Spirits.

This was in the hard shellac section.

HARD SHELLAC - New improved formula finish.

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by ian

Just remember that commercial "metho" can contain up to 50% water.
Dissolving shellac flakes in fluid containing more than about 5% water is problematic.

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Bunnings supplied Diggers "Metho" contains 5% demineralized water according to the MSDS. "METHYLATED SPIRITS - Other Names Ethanol, Ethyl Alcohol, IMS"

Diggers also produced a "Stove Fuel" which was nearer to 100% Ethanol, but I can no longer find it listed on their site.

Specialist paint shops should also have 100% Methylated Spirits. Sceneys is another brand.

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Originally Posted by ian

"Metho" is an abbreviation for methanol -- it is not ethanol (although ethanol plus a bittering agent is mostly sold as "metho"). I'm not entirely sure how methanol is produced, but importantly methanol is poisonous which is why it is mixed with a bittering agent to make it taste horrible. Drinking methanol tends to send people blind.

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Virtually all product sold today as Meths is Ethanol.

Extracted from Wikipedia.
True methanol is used mainly in industry and as a racing vehicle (eg drag racers and monster trucks) fuel. Methanol fires have an advantage in that they can be put out with water but a major disadvantage that it burns invisibly.
Drinking 10mL can send you blind and 60-100mL is enough to kill.
Meths was in the past made from coal or heating wood, these days it's produced synthetically using meths or by combining CO2 and Hydrogen, or Biosyntheically using bugs.
Meths can be produced cheaply (c/litre) compared to $/L for ethanol and there have been attempts to use it as a major component in vehicle fuel. Whatever is used it still produces CO2 The EU allows a max 3% meths in vehicle fuel

I have always mixed shellac flake or Ubeaut Hard Shellac liquid with Bunnings “meths”. Never had a negative issue.

https://i.postimg.cc/DwsP1D9b/28a.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

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Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Diggers also produced a "Stove Fuel" which was nearer to 100% Ethanol, but I can no longer find it listed on their site.

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I thought Diggers "stove fuel" was actually "white spirit" which is Naphtha.
Though with recent changes in Australia to product sourcing, there is some confusion as to whether "white spirit" is the same as mineral turps (which is sold as "white spirits" in the US) or naphtha (Australian practice) or a benzine based paint thinner.

I believe it’s Shellite, same as Colemans Stove Fuel.

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Originally Posted by Lappa

I believe it’s Shellite, same as Colemans Stove Fuel.

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In Australia, Shellite and naphtha are one and the same.

From the Diggers MSDS
Chemical Entity -- Solvent naphtha (petroleum), light aliphatic -- approximately 100%
other components (should this be "possible contaminants"?) -- n-Hexane -- less than 30%
stated benzene percentage < 0.1%

99.x% Isopropyl is available from electronics stores like Jaycar and Radio Parts, it used to be used for cleaning tape heads etc but is also used for cleaning printed circuit boards and such. Evaporation is quite fast for mist applications as per electronics, but I have no comparative information about evap rates relative to other alcohols, and haven't tried mixing shellac using it.

My understanding is that most alcohols will absorb moisture from their surrounds and effectively dilute themselves unless they remain completely sealed in their container, i.e open the container to decant a small amount and recap the container and you are no longer completely sure of concentration.

Thanks guys for all your input, you really are very much informed. I went out on a limb and bought Isopropyl 100% and would you believe it the whopping 20L drum because I could find nowhere local anything smaller. Sounds like throwing money down the tube but believe me this is my final spend and knowledge never came cheaply. To cut a lengthy story short, Isopropyl is great for beginners who want to apply shellac with a brush. It does not dry instantly as denatured alcohol even though it may appear dry on the surface but smear your finger or even a rag over the brushed surface you’ll see that’s still very much wet. How long does it take to fully dry? I don’t know because I went to bed disappointed. Isopropyl dissolves the flakes just as quickly as denatured alcohol, but nothing will dissolve outdated shellac.

Derek said that he’s always mixed flakes with metho from Bunnings, which we all know contains a certain percentage of water. I’ve heard this before from an old timer who used to work as a finisher back in his day, and I dismissed it as rubbish. Now, I hear it again and I wonder if I’m the one who has been fed all these years of rubbish. I would like to know why using metho with water in it works with no adverse affect since there is so much emphasis on using IMS100?

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Originally Posted by section1

To cut a lengthy story short, Isopropyl is great for beginners who want to apply shellac with a brush. It does not dry instantly as denatured alcohol even though it may appear dry on the surface but smear your finger or even a rag over the brushed surface you’ll see that’s still very much wet. How long does it take to fully dry? I don’t know because I went to bed disappointed. Isopropyl dissolves the flakes just as quickly as denatured alcohol, but nothing will dissolve outdated shellac.

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Ethanol has a molecular weight of 46, so, while not "flashing off" like acetone, will evaporate faster than isopropanol (molecular weight about 60). Under some conditions, water will evaporate faster than isopropanol.

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Originally Posted by section1

Derek said that he’s always mixed flakes with metho from Bunnings, which we all know contains a certain percentage of water. I’ve heard this before from an old timer who used to work as a finisher back in his day, and I dismissed it as rubbish. Now, I hear it again and I wonder if I’m the one who has been fed all these years of rubbish. I would like to know why using metho with water in it works with no adverse affect since there is so much emphasis on using IMS100?

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there's three different alcohol involved here.

Methanol is methanol. It is very poisonous. It is still available commercially, but it is not the "metho" sold by Bunnings, et al.

Ethanol is sold by retailers who don't hold a liquor licence (e.g. Bunnings) in denatured form. It's "denatured" with a bittering agent and may, depending on the supplier, contain up to 50% water.
The ethanol sold by Bunnings, et al, is commonly known as "metho" or "meths" and according to the MSDS "methylated spirits" as supplied through Bunnings by Diggers is >= 95% ethanol, water is <= 5%.
Note that Ethanol is also available at 100% concentration for use when making fortified wine.

Isopropanol -- evaporates slower than ethanol and on occasion slower than water. It will work to dissolve shellac, but I wouldn't recommend it.

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Originally Posted by ian

In Australia, Shellite and naphtha are one and the same.

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White spirits and Shellite are two different things but both use naphtha as their base. Coleman state their stove Fuel is Shellite. White spirits is not used due to some of its constituents. It’s mainly used as a dry cleaning fluid and turpentine substitute.


Attachment 477824
As you can see, Diggers sell both

when I go to the shop I look for the label on the bottle. It says Shellite. It is still naphtha but it’s easier to call it by it’s common name that people see rather than having to peer at the ingredients.

I just finished reading a thread over on the IAP forum along similar lines to this one.
one bloke from the US said that he buys Everclear from a food store and costs $20 a litre compared to a couple of dollars for denatured alcohol. He said it is high strength clear ethanol.