Staining/Ebonising to make timber look like other species?

Hi, this is my first time posting here. I'm a novice woodworker with some probably extremely stupid questions to ask regarding dyeing and ebonising.
I'm guessing the techniques I'm thinking about don't work otherwise they'd be common practice, but I thought I'd ask anyway to get an understanding of why/why not?

1. Regarding timber that appears redder or yellower than desired, is it possible to shift the balance towards brown by adding a heavily diluted blue dye to reduce yellow
or cyan dye to reduce red? eg to make Tasmanian Blackwood look more like American Walnut in colour.

2. Regarding dyes or ebonising with vinegar/steel wool (and tea if needed), is it possible to paint onto timber with an artist's brush (rather than flooding the timber) to selectively and progressively add layers of colour to parts of the timber to make it look like other timber? eg adding to close grain timber like Hard Maple (with tea to add tannins) to make it look like Ziricote, African Blackwood etc or for a more local example making Sassafras look like Blackheart Sassafras.

3. Also I'm interested to hear people's opinions of treating timber with ammonia fuming or iron acetate (vinegar and steel wool) - do you think the results look at all natural?
I haven't attempted these techniques yet, so am only going off photos on the net where it appears to colour timber through various shades of an unnatural grey through to an unnatural black. It doesn't look very good to me in the photos, but I know photos can misrepresent colour very easily, so am interested to hear people's experiences.

Thanks for any help
Matt

Can't help you with dyes, as I only use 'em for spot touch-ups and even then only as a last resort.

However...

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Originally Posted by EmaNResU

3. Also I'm interested to hear people's opinions of treating timber with ammonia fuming or iron acetate (vinegar and steel wool) - do you think the results look at all natural?

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Yes! Correctly done, the results mimic aging of the timber.

It's the method I prefer to use for restoration work where as much as possible of the old timber must be maintained and any new repairs/replacements need to blend. I do attempt to match the timber species though, rather than trying to make one species look like another. This is for grain matching & ensuring the grain ages in a similar way rather than any concern about colour though.

I rarely get a perfect match, a seasoned eye can often pick it, but after a year or two of 'real' aging the match becomes much closer until it becomes extremely difficult to pick. :)

I've found that if I colour match with a dye it works t'other way. Looks good for a while, but as the dyed areas age differently to the original timber the repairs become much more obvious as time passes.

Not a result I desire...

PS. I should point out that I work mainly on architectural restos, not discrete pieces of furniture. But the same reasoning applies.

I made up a jar of iron acetate for staining locally grown paper birch (Betula papyrifera.)
It was my intention to see if the wood could look like my birch wood carvings which are outdoors, weathering on my fence posts.

No. The stained wood just looks dirty. Both the sap wood and the heartwood. Very disappointed.
The outdoor wood has a matte satin silvery appearance due to the air in the surface wood cells.
Not something even approximated by stain of any kind.
I have learned that to preserve that surface finish appearance, the wood must be unfinished and allowed to weather for 3-5 years.
Once returned to the indoor environment, do nothing. Any finish will occlude the air filled cells and destroy the appearance.

I agree with Skewy.

You have to remember that wood is not a homogeneous inert material and no two pieces are ever the same.
Thus the absorption of dyes, ebonising solutions or tinted varnishes etc is rarely uniform unless you go for something like a complete black.
The practicing and perfecting on a few pieces that are not part of the final work may still lead to significantly different effects and disappointment on the real work pieces.
And, as Skewy says, a process that results in something looking OK today can look awful in a years time.

All you can do is try it out and see what it looks like and hope for the best

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Originally Posted by Robson Valley

No. The stained wood just looks dirty. Both the sap wood and the heartwood. Very disappointed.
The outdoor wood has a matte satin silvery appearance due to the air in the surface wood cells.

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I've been informed by several old-school workers I respect that the silvery finish on almost any exposed timber is actually a type of fungus. If you rub that off with a light grade of paper you normally get a 'dirty' looking piece of wood... which is how the timber actually ages and this is the part iron acetate emulates.

As you rightly said, the only way to get that silvering is long term exposure.

Thanks Andy, Bob and Robson for your taking the time out of your day to respond, I very much appreciate it. It's confirmed my thoughts regarding ebonising making the timber look grey, and I can see definitely see how that'd be useful for artificial ageing.

I think I should have mentioned the project I'm planning just to give some context to my questions. I'm planning to build some furniture and want something that looks and feels Ebony-like for parts of it. I don't want jet black which is what most ebonising aims to achieve, but rather very very dark chocolate brown with some lighter and darker streaks. I was thinking Hard Maple might be a good candidate due to it's hardness, very closed grain and ability to be polished to a very smooth finish. From what I've read it doesn't take pigment stains very well though, and doesn't have much tannin content for ebonising (unless using tea first) but does take dye well. That's why I was wondering if it'd be possible to 'paint' grain patterns (like found on African Blackwood or even more intricate looking patterns like Ziricote) using a combination of dyes and ebonising starting out from a relatively grainless board of Maple. (this was the thinking behind my second question and my third question).

Regarding my first question, I was thinking of using diluted dyes to take some of the golden brown colouring out of Tasmanian Blackwood to get a look closer to American Black Walnut, but I've decided that's a very stupid idea and would be a waste of good Tasmanian Blackwood, although I was still curious as to whether or not it could possibly work.

What sort of furniture?

I can point you to some outstanding veneers, both real and artificial, that will amaze you... But this of course depends on the project!

My recipe: A generous fist-sized wad of fine steel wool in a liter of table vinegar. Takes several weeks for the iron to dissolve = iron acetate solution.
This reacts with the tannins in the wood to (quickly!) make a gray, not brown, stain. I got a result in a matter of minutes.
Woods poor in tannins can be pre-treated with a wash of very strong cheap tea.
I have not done this in my shop as my project was a one-off and very small (paleo fire-making kit, the wood of the bow drill.)

The surface of many woods can become contaminated with various fungi over time.
Using Lactophenol - Cotton Blue at 100X in a compound light microscope,
I see no fungal mycelium in weathered wood from birch, poplar, western red cedar, yellow cedar, spruce, pine or Douglas-fir.

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Originally Posted by EmaNResU

That's why I was wondering if it'd be possible to 'paint' grain patterns (like found on African Blackwood or even more intricate looking patterns like Ziricote) using a combination of dyes and ebonising starting out from a relatively grainless board of Maple.

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It sounds like you are chasing a "Palomino" type colour scheme? Well there's nothing to stop you trying dyes but I still reckon it will look like its painted on. The main reason is that "Natural colour" streaks in timber are rarely "just changes in pigment" but accompanied by subtle changes in the shape, direction and even texture of grain so that they all flow together "naturally". On corners the streaks follow the grain through the wood so they naturally match up on the other side of the corner - if you didn't do that it would look wrong. You would have to study every piece of wood in detail and make sure the colour streaks did that accurately down to very fine detail - you can't just add a few swipes here and there and expect it to look natural. Personally I'd be focussing on using the existing natural beauty of any timber and put effort into the highest quality of wood work and a quality finish that enhances existing features in the wood. If you want something eye-popping then as WoodPixel says there are plenty of veneers to choose from although matching up corners etc can be a challenge.

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I think I should have mentioned the project I'm planning just to give some context to my questions. I'm planning to build some furniture and want something that looks and feels Ebony-like for parts of it. I don't want jet black which is what most ebonising aims to achieve, but rather very very dark chocolate brown with some lighter and darker streaks.

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It sounds like you should be targeting something like old growth Jarrah or Redgum. Jarrah logs vary from a light pink to deep chocolate brown. If you can get some that is close to the sap wood you can get some lighter streaks running through it. The final depth of colour depends on the finishes used. Ail finishes drive wood even darker and some finishes like oils can drive a deep chocolate brown to approach black.

Getting hold of some of this timber will not be easy and you would probably have to look at recycled timber. Expect to have to sort through hundreds of pieces of timber to get anything close to what you need.

I'll post some photos so you can see what I mean.

Two pieces of Jarrah - one is Old grown and the other is not - the depth of colour is a result of the use of linseed oil which really darkens the timber.
Attachment 432915

Here is a slightly enhance photo so you can see the grain in the old growth.
Attachment 432916

Our kitchen floor uses recycled Jarrah boards.
Here you can see some of the wide range of colours and patterns that Jarrah displays.
The finish is 2 pack semi-gloss polyurethane with a special non-darkening sealer to retain lightness - if an oil type finish were used on these boards the darker ones would approach black.
Attachment 432917

This is jarrah with 2 pac gloss PU without the special non-darkening sealer - there is still plenty of pattern and shading in this timber.
Attachment 432918

The photos don't do justice to the subtleties in these timbers.

EmaNResU, have a look at these (at their image galleries).... although its veneer and there is a bit a step in doing veneering, it may offer you more opportunities to find what you are after.

George Fethers | The epitome of aesthetic indulgence
Home - Elton Group
https://www.briggs.com.au/shop
Timberwood Panels | Home
https://www.woodsolutions.com.au/woo...e-Wood-Veneers
http://www.veneerpanels.com.au/what-is-veneer/

Some of these vendors sell "structured" or manufactured veneers. They take raw wood material and simulate rare, exotic and expensive species into leafs, stitched sheets and full-pressed sheets onto MDF/ply (choose size).

Their product is absolutely outstanding.

Timberwood is fantastic. They will press up whatever you want (they source from 3 big vendors I haven't listed - us mere mortal are too small for the gods to notice!). I've found their service first class.

Depending on your furniture, or designs, you could buy a pre-pressed panel of rare timber on void-free hoop pine for ~$90 (obviously this varies, perhaps considerably). You also buy edging (rolls of 50 and 100M) and a few leafs for tricky bits (curves, insides, etc). The fact the panel is pre-pressed saves a lot of dicking around and the end result is just as good as real timber (but with other positive qualities, such as timber expansion avoidance, speed and lower costs)

BTW, tell us what you are making!!!!

Thanks Woodpixel, Bob, and Robson.

Woodpixel - it's a desk and shelves. I want a Black Walnut look for the horizontal surfaces, and the ebony look for the vertical posts holding up the shelves. I actually took a look at some dressed Tasmanian Blackwood today - it looked stunning in its unfinished state, but I know it'll come up Reddish/Golden Brown when oiled and I'm keen for a more brown brown (with contrasts running from white coffee through dark chocolate) which brings me back to Walnut again.

Thank you for the links to all the veneer places. I am considering veneering as an option for cost, sustainability and structural integrity reasons, but feel a bit iffy about that veneer seam and the change in grain from top surface to side surface as Bob was saying.

Bob - Pardon my ignorance, I'm not sure what a Palomino colour scheme is. I Googled, but just get lots of pics of horses.

Thank you for your explanation of how you believe dye 'painting' would turn out. I think you are most likely correct and it explains well why there aren't hundreds of You Tube videos about how to make fake Rosewood. The way you suggested working with/following the grain direction with very close attention to detail was what I had in mind, particularly as the different growth rings and other grain features would still be visible through the dye and conflicting with the painted lines. Thinking about it further, I'm also thinking other issues could be bleeding (ie the dye seeps out beyond the intended line) and the dye hues looking unnatural. I'm keen to do some experiments down the track, but I think I'll put the idea on the back burner for now.

Thanks particularly for the photos. I always thought Jarrah was only the bright red, I didn't realise that it could also get that dark brown. It looks amazing, a great option if I can track it down. Thanks for the tip!

Thanks again,
Matt

Hi Matt, and welcome to the forum. You have received a lot of good advice and very quickly but one of your questions doesn’t seem to have been answered yet and that relates to dye tinting. The short answer is “yes but”! I have used an overall dye tint to change a ‘plum red’ to a ‘red-brown’ to recover from a bit of a chromatic disaster. I had stained a plywood door panel that needed to match its solid wood door frame. The panel was ‘plum red’ and the frame a ‘red-brown’. Luckily I had some leftover ply with the same stain on it so I could experiment. I won’t bore you with the whole catastrophe but basically a thin green dye wash straight on to the stain “didn’t work”, to say the least! I then sealed the stain in with, from memory a coat of Wipe On Polyurethane (WOP) and then put another coat of WOP dyed with green and it worked a treat. The magic seems to be that the dyes and stain need to be separated or the effect isn’t cumulative?
On another issue you raised, that of painting grain and figure to masquerade as another timber, the answer is also ‘yes-but’? The history of furniture is littered with examples of faux finish but most of us don’t have the need to do so? I have one fairly regular need however but I’ll only whisper it so that no-one else knows that I do it :;! I restore quite a bit of Chinese furniture and our locally grown camphor laurel is a very close relative of the timber used in a lot of Chinese furniture EXCEPT the dark bands in our camphor laurel are red and in Chinese, it is black. I thought that the colour difference was due to it being a different species or possibly age BUT, it now appears that the red in ours is due to our camphor laurels being poisoned before cutting because they are a declared noxious weed! So, if I can’t get unpoisoned camphor laurel, I get out my artists brushes and paint the red grain with black dye. This adulteration then extended to painting dark grain lines from the new piece of timber onto the old original piece to better mask the new piece. This is only one step away from the slippery slide of faux-finish?
I hope this helps.
BTW, g’day Skew :biggrin2:

fletty

Oooops, I forgot my third (hopefully) contribution. In another thread by FenceFurniture, he made a beautiful table out of Blackwood and I wanted to attach a picture just to show you that, without any staining, at least SOME Blackwood WILL give you a “browny brown”

Attachment 433185

fletty

Hi Fletty, thank you very much for sharing your examples - I really appreciate it, and also for the example of browny-brown Tassie Blackwood. Also that was very interesting info on Camphor Laurel. :)

To add to fletty and skew's comments.

1. I fully agree with them that Blackwood (Acacia melanoxylon) can indeed appear very brown. I have made (and, if I had photographed everything properly would have been able to show you) many items from Blackwood - mostly highly figured, fiddleback Blackwood (it is one of my favourite timbers). It ranges from pale white to dark brown but the most common is a rich brown. In the 19th Century Blackwood was also known as Lightwood because of the pale colour of the sapwood.

2. Traditionally, many items were finished with faux finishes to look like other timbers. Often this was in architectural features, but it was also used in furniture. The paints used were usually opaque, but very cleverly done so that a casual, or even fairly close look did not reveal the secrets. Many churches are fashioned in that manner and a recent tour of Tasmania revealed faux finishes in many fine 19th century houses. In some I had to get very close to recognise and in many would not have known if I had not been told. That is the power of suggestion "fine stone house must have fine timbers" - but not always!

3. My only other addition is that many antique pieces of Australian furniture that had ebony features were, in fact, ebonised features - but of the very black variety, because ebony was so difficult to get here then. Those ebonisations have not faded with time.

4. One of the problems with faux "fakings" etc. with dyes is that they do change with time as many dyes are what are called fugitive. The other is that they show up clearly in photographs because of the different sensitivity of sensors and film to that of the human eye. A UV "Back" light often shows them very clearly, so any light source with a lot of UV makes them stand out.