more questions

some more quieres that some one might be able to help me with



have a earth leakage installed but have notice that twice now have shorted something out and it hasnt gone off yet friend says that hers gose off as soon as she plugs faulty applicance in so why dosent mine when i have sparks flying ?? could mine be faulty ?

can u buy that iron on edge stripping in wider than 19mmneed to put new edges on kitchen benches (35mm ) or would it be better to go and get a small piece of laminate from store and cut into strips and glue in place ? if i do that what would be the best way to get a neat edge thought of wood edge but not sure of appearance in the end


also can i glue splashbacks in place with liquid nails they are made out of 5 mm mdf with laminate on the front they where orginally glue in place to plaster board but am now wanting to put on painted fibro will the new paint be a problem


ok thks again hope someone might have some info for me
david

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Originally Posted by dzcook

some more quieres that some one might be able to help me with



have a earth leakage installed but have notice that twice now have shorted something out and it hasnt gone off yet friend says that hers gose off as soon as she plugs faulty applicance in so why dosent mine when i have sparks flying ?? could mine be faulty ?

david

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David, awhile back in Victoria (I think) a carpenter was killed drilling through a cabinet into a live circuit. The house had been retrofited with an RCD. Investigations showed the electrician who installed the RCD only put it on one of the two GPO circuits which existed in the house. The carpenter had a 50/50 chance and was unlucky. I STRONGLY advise you get your board and circuits tested by a proper sparky. You can actually check it yourself but better you are advised by somebody more qualified than myself.

After reading about this fatality I checked out my board and found it was OK but some moron had run a GPO off a lighting circuit..another story

BTW, I have Stainless Steel splashbacks in my place (real SS not fake) and it is all installed with construction adhesive, 4 years now no probs even around the range.

In my last house I had one of those (then) new fangled and very expensive earth leakage devices installed, and went about doing all sorts of stupid things in the knowledge that I was completely protected.

After about 10 years the pool chlorinator started playing up and kept tripping out the thing, so got an electrician in to track down the problem. In the course of doing that he discovered that
1) There was a major fault in the pool gear which could have proved fatal without the device.
2) The garage power circuit had been installed incorrectly and was NOT on the ELCB curcuit!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I got him to fix it, and TWO DAYS later had my first (and only) power cord accident ...whew!!! -

Last weekend while cutting a new door in Son In Law's unit, I felt a sort of different action with the saw blade and stopped cutting. I went down to turn off the power just in case, only to arrive at the box in time to see the Earth Leakage Breaker trip. S-I-L obviously thought I was worn out, and decided to finish the cut, right through a power curcuit. He was completely unaware that he had done it till we removed the wall sheeting!

I was shaken AND stirred!

Earth Leakage detection WORKS, but only if it is installed correctly, and if you aren't an electrician, you can't tell if it's not installed correctly without dying!

Please have yours checked if you are not absolutely sure!


;) ;)
P

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Originally Posted by dzcook

some more quieres that some one might be able to help me with

can u buy that iron on edge stripping in wider than 19mmneed to put new edges on kitchen benches (35mm ) or would it be better to go and get a small piece of laminate from store and cut into strips and glue in place ? if i do that what would be the best way to get a neat edge thought of wood edge but not sure of appearance in the end




ok thks again hope someone might have some info for me
david

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I wouldn't use iron on edge stripping for benches. Ok on shelves but not durable enough for bench edges.

Would be better to use Laminex/Formica and glue it on with contact cement and trim with a laminate trimmer either electric or like the one shown below made by Eclipse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dzcook

have a earth leakage installed but have notice that twice now have shorted something out and it hasnt gone off yet friend says that hers gose off as soon as she plugs faulty applicance in so why dosent mine when i have sparks flying ?? could mine be faulty ?

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I agree with the other posters that it is worth having it checked, but in your case, it may not be faulty - here's why:

You say that you 'shorted something'. Fuses or breakers cope with that, and are designed to protect the wiring from excessive current drawn when wires are shorted. They are therefore set to trigger at a current flow above which the wiring would melt. ie, a high current.

Earth Leakage Breakers work in a very different way, and are designed to protect people - not the wiring. They are very sensitive (or should be) and work by detecting the difference in current flowing in the live and neutral wires, in the almost certain assumption that that any such difference must be leaking to earth (through a human or a faulty appliance). The leakage does not need to be very high to cause damage to people, so Earth Leakage devices are set to trigger at a very small differential current. Because they operate in this way you will also see them called by the name of RCD (Residual Current Device).

My house is protected by an Earth Leakage breaker and I have had it trigger twice - both as a result of me touching a cable. Once physically - I felt nothing at all (though I would not rely on it) and the other when I drilled into a cable. In that case the drill just stopped (with the rest of the house!) - no sparks, no melted drill, nothing.

So as I said above, these devices are extremely sensitive if there is current flow to earth, causing a difference in current in live and neutral wires.... But they will not respond to a short, in which case there will be very high current in both live and neutral but no difference between them.

I hope this makes sense! ;)

Regarding the earth leakage device. It may not necessarily be faulty. It detects earth leakage where one of the live or neutral cables shorts to earth. This is there because one of the most likely reasons that a live wire could short to earth is through human contact. If you short between the live and neutral, the earth leakage will not necessarily activate but you should blow a fuse either in the appliance or in the switchboard. Not sure about queensland, but installation of a new switchboard in vic needs to be checked by an electrical inspector, you should have a certificate which may giev you some numbers to call.

Regarding the perceived level of safety that an earth leakage device gives you. It does not give you the ability to ignore electricity in the belief that the device will save you. Earth leakage devices are not on every circuit - for example ovens, water heaters, large pumps (possible even for the pool) aren't normally protected by the earth leakage device as it would constant trip due to the variation in current that they draw. It is only recently that earth leakage devices have been put on lighting circuits. Even with the device in place, you should still thinl carefully about any activity that involves working in the vicinity of live electricity.

Simon

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Originally Posted by dzcook

Can u buy that iron on edge stripping in wider than 19mmneed to put new edges on kitchen benches (35mm )

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Yes, I have some. I bought it from Wilson & Bradley years ago.

Although you can buy it, I agree with Bazza that it is better to use laminex for bench edging.


Peter.

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Originally Posted by simon c

Earth leakage devices are not on every circuit - for example ovens, water heaters, large pumps (possible even for the pool) aren't normally protected by the earth leakage device as it would constant trip due to the variation in current that they draw.

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Not necessarily true. My whole house is protected (see my post a few minutes before yours), including the cooker.

Variation in current has (or should have) absolutely no affect on the operation of an RCD. Any variation in current will occur in both live and neutral cables. Therefore no difference in current and no trip. Think about it - if current variation caused an RCD to trip, just turning the TV on (or off!) would cause my house to trip.

I do not have a pool, but I agree that it is unusual to protect a pump in the same circuit as the rest of the house. Not for the reasons you give though - more likely because the damp enviroment in which they operate may create false trips. Pool pumps are normally protected by a less sensitive RCD, which in the case of a house like mine which is entirely protected means that the pump would need to have a separate feed taken before the RCD (if I had a pool!).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dzcook

would it be better to go and get a small piece of laminate from store and cut into strips and glue in place ? if i do that what would be the best way to get a neat edge thought of wood edge but not sure of appearance in the end


also can i glue splashbacks in place with liquid nails they are made out of 5 mm mdf with laminate on the front they where orginally glue in place to plaster board but am now wanting to put on painted fibro will the new paint be a problem

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Now that Earth leakage is covered! :D

I agree with the others above: Iron-on will not be durable enough for a bench edge, laminate would be OK, but normally the edge would be done first so the top lamination would overlap, and the exposed face would be on the vertical edge rather than the top. (sorry-a bit garbled I know!).

A timber edge strip could look quite effective, I know others wouldn't , but I would mask the laminate, and glue it on using thickened epoxy, then trim flush with the laminate. The epoxy will keep moisture out of the join, and minimise chances of it "blowing" in the future.

You should get away with the splash backs PROVIDING the new paint has been properly prepped and is well keyed. Liquid nails is not necessarily waterproof so don't forget to seal the top and bottom with something that is.

Cheers,

P ;)

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A timber edge strip could look quite effective, I know others wouldn't , but I would mask the laminate, and glue it on using thickened epoxy, then trim flush with the laminate.

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I agree with bitingmidge on this one, even if he did say it twice :D

A friend of mine did this on his kitchen reno and it looks great.

Himzo.

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Originally Posted by himzol

even if he did say it twice :D

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:eek: :eek:
Must have had the shakes!

P :D

thks for the replys

am now wondering with the earth leakage device that the last thing that sparked was a l;ight switch that i had moved from insde pantry to outside i thought el was fitted on all the power circuits lights etc but maybe iam wrong on that

Most houses don't have an earth leakage device fitted on lighting circuits because it is not mandatory; as opposed to GPO circuits which are now required to have a GPO fitted - as new build - or retrofitted at first modification or upgrade by an electrician.

As Simon said, just because you blew something up doesn't mean its faulty.

Get someone to check it out that is qualified. I no longer have a good mate; he's pushing up daisies, an RCD may have saved his life. Its pretty sobering from my point of view but he's dead because someone who wasn't qualified was trying to save money. What value a life??? of a mate, a father, husband and a son.

Just a thought on the logic of using ELCB's. One thing that you should consider is having 2 or 3 of them and seperating your circuits so that in the event of something happening you will still have some power or lights available while you try to work out what has failed. There is nothing worse than all the lights going out because the kettle has @#$% itself at 1 in the morning and trying to find a torch (that the kids have flattened playing spotlight) and unplugging stuff until the ELCB doesn't trip anymore:(. No wait!! what would be worse if if it turned out to be a wiring fault and you needed a sparky over a holiday period. Hmm off to Kan'tFrigginCook and Mac Chuck's for a day or two. :mad:

MarkV

The lighting aspects of your suggestion is normally covered. The "standard" implementation is to have one protecting the main circuits and either (as an option) a separate one for the lighting circuits or nothing on the lights at all.

If the ELCB on the main circuits trips, then you don't need to try every appliance in the house as you would use the circuit breakers to identify which circuit it was first.

But you're right about the best option which would be to have ELCBs on every circuit - it just comes down to the cost.

Simon