100% Metho

[Ben from Vic.]

Hello all, been out today looking for some IMS (100% metho, Ethanol, etc) to mix with U-Beauts Hard Shellac, and for clean up.

Just thought I'd share that as well as being a little difficult to find, it's also used in the production of drugs (speed I think), so don't be supprised to be given a good eye-balling when you wonder in to a paint shop and ask for 100% metho.

My experiance went a little like this....

"Hi I'm after 100% Metho....ahh we only have 95%, 100% is pretty hard to get, it's used for making drugs so if you start buying it, people start asking questions. What do you want it for?......" :eek:

The shop that I bought it from just treated it like any normal product.

Maybe it was the shiny black Merc' and the $3000 suit. :D

Just thought I'd tell you all so that if it happens to you, you can say 'yes I know' and look even more guilty than I did. :D

Ben.

[Robert WA]

Metho, or its US equivalent denatured alcohol, contains 5% methyl alcohol so that it poisons the poor drunks for whom it is the drink of first choice. I was not aware that you could purchase 100% ethyl alcohol.

Does it make any difference to the quality of the shellac mix if pure ethyl alcohol is used as opposed to normal metho?

I was brought up in the Port Adelaide area and saw my share of drunks. I was told back then that the additive to metho could be removed by straining it through bread crust. The old bloke that told me that didn't look very well, so I didn't try his recipe.

[Cliff Rogers]

G'day.

Ya bark'n up the wrong tree..... the problem is the water content.
Most common & garden variety meths has 5% or more water in it &
thats crook for shelac, makes it go cloudy....

I haven't seen it at the regular hardware or supermarket but
it is available throught some of the paint places & chemical suppliers.

[Neil]

'Tis called 100% Industrial Methylated Spirits or 100%IMS or Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol). It contains less than 1% denaturant to make it unpalatable and NO WATER.

You will most often find it under the name Industrial Methylated Spirits. Don't even bother looking at Bunnings. A good paint shop or most Mitre 10's and other good hardware shops will either stock it or get it in for you.

Cheers - Neil :D

[PAH1]

[QUOTE=Neil]'Tis called 100% Industrial Methylated Spirits or 100%IMS or Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol). It contains less than 1% denaturant to make it unpalatable and NO WATER.

I must admit that this has had me bugged for a while, on Neil's web site it also says this as well. To me as a scientist Methyl alcohol is what makes up methylated spirits not ethanol so with todays post I did a bit of searching. IMS is so called because it is ethanol doped with methanol to make it poisonous to drink. 95% methlyated spirits does refer to the water content, see attached specs from BP (admittedly from the UK) but as that is the standard that is also used with scientific supplies I doubt that it would be different here.

http://www.distill.com/specs/BPChemicals5.html (http://)

The other issue is that all alcohol solutions are hygroscopic ie they absorb water. The 100% you buy may well not be, every time it is opened to the air it absorbs water. For moisture critical applications this may be an issue, we usually maintain such stocks over chemical driers to absorb the water.

[Rowan]

I must look toooooo much like a low life cause when I bought a large quantity I was just given a strange smile and served quickly :eek: :D :D

[Termite]

It's ethyl alcohol, and surprise surprise, a hell of a lot of it is made by a certain company that makes rum. The father of doctor mate of mine used to be the Man Dir of the company and he assures me that the rum is cheaper to make.
Kind hic regards
Shlurmite :rolleyes:

[PAH1]

It's ethyl alcohol, and surprise surprise, a hell of a lot of it is made by a certain company that makes rum. The father of doctor mate of mine used to be the Man Dir of the company and he assures me that the rum is cheaper to make.
Kind hic regards
Shlurmite :rolleyes:

You can air distill to make the rum, ie no special equipment required. Once you go beyond ~70% you need to do some fancy chemistry to get higher (either azeotropic distillation with toluene or chemical dehydration of the alcohol/water mix) and so the cost goes up, however the marketing cost goes down. I think we pay about $5/L for pure methanol/ethanol for general purposes, this can be a lot greater for special purpose stuff ie> $100/L.

[Marc]

Is there such thing as 100% methanol? would that be any good for shellack?

[journeyman Mick]

I must look toooooo much like a low life cause when I bought a large quantity I was just given a strange smile and served quickly :eek: :D :D

Rowan,
Next time don't ask for the big chilled bottles out of the fridge! :eek: :D

Mick

[Robert WA]

"he assures me that the rum is cheaper to make"

Can you mix shellac flakes with rum?

[Neil]

Marc - Methanol is highly toxic and is banned from use as a solvent in many countries, including (I think) Australia. It is also known as Methyl alcohol, Wood alcohol, Wood Spirit and other names.

Don't use it as a solvent, even if you can manage to get hold of it

100% Industrial Methylated Spirit is Ethyl Alcohol and the stuff we get is 99% pure alcohol with around .5% denaturant and .5% water this makes up the 1% that isn't pure alcohol. The denaturant as a rule is Methanol but not always, there are others that are sometimes used.



From PAH1 - The other issue is that all alcohol solutions are hygroscopic ie they absorb water.You are dead right, However some of the stuff may have as much as 10% or more water in it directly from the manufacturer. This is the main reason I always suggest people buy 100% IMS. Why on earth would you want to give the water a 5% or greater head start?

Unless you were to do something really, really stupid, I would suggest that the absorption rate of water into an open bottle of metho would be less than a fraction of a % even if the lid was to be left off for a few days or even weeks.

Cheers - Neil :D

PS don't believe all you read on MSDS's I have seen the same specs quoted for 3 different types of Meths.

[Oldblock]

I've often wondered what denatured alcohol was and after following this thread I did a Google on methylated spirits and got

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/methylated_spirit.html

Here it displays a safety data sheet for Meths and states it is also known as denatured alcohol.

I've only had a quick look but for the purists it seems it all depends where the stuff comes from determines it's actual makeup but there's always some water albeit not very much.

There, that's my two penuth.

[Neil]

Strewth :eek: - There is no way in the world I'd want the stuff in the above MSDS in my shellac.

It consists of:
Ethanol > 60%
Methanol or MIK < 10%
bad taste - trace
colouring - trace
topped up with < 10% water
Total 80% give or take a bit

I have no idea what the missing 20% (or there abouts) would be. Maybe a bit of orange juice. :confused:

Well, there ya go..... I rest my case. Use the good stuff. :)

Cheers - Neil

PS Like I said earlier don't believe everything you read in an MSDS. :rolleyes:

[Oldblock]

Now now Neil, your the alchemist, dont you know what the little < & > are for?

[Marc]

My father had a cabinet making shop where they use to manufacture classic reproduction furniture, or like I use to say, my father makes antiques ... hehe

I must have made thousands of litres of shellac in the 10 or so years I worked in the shop. We used it as a sealant to cover the red "boldo" before applying the varnish we used as adhesive for the gold layer, gilding I think we say in English. After we gave another coat of shellac on top of the gold, again to seal it in order to be able to apply "patina" that was turps based and would have removed the gold without it.

Now we use to buy industrial alcohol or "Paint alcohol" that was ethanol but exempted from tax, but I doubt it was any higher grade than 95. It came in 20 litre drums.
In wet days, and in Buenos Aires wet means 90% humidity, just after applying the shellac the whole job became cloudy yellow nearly white. Yet such never bothered me, I knew it would go away once dry. I never had a problem and the job looked just as if that never happened.

Ergo ... I ask what is the problem in using lower grade alcohol, be it with or whithout the addition of methanol? Is it realy that bad if you get the cloudy thing happening?

[Bob Willson]

My mother French polished a small table top for me a short while ago :) and the finish turned out very streaky and cloudy. A week later I just wiped it all over with a bit of ordinary meths on a tissue and it came up great.

[Neil]

Oldblock - What that MSDS tells me is that there could be as little as 6.01% ethanol content and as much as 20% other additives (Water, methanol, colour and taste). I suppose you could say it's <> correct. However, no matter which way I look at it, it still doesn't quite add up. Maybe I'm missing something. I still say, don't believe everything you read in all MSDS's.

In many instances an MSDS is a sketch of the product used as a guideline, of how to safely handle the goods, emergency procedures, toxicity levels, etc. They are not a complete breakdown of the products structure. This is why that MSDS is so open with its percentages. It is not a true reflection of 100% IMS. Which as a rule (in Australia) is 97.9 - 99.92% pure alcohol depending upon the supplier.

______________________________

Water in Methylated Spirits can cause big problems when it comes to mixing down your shellac. Sometimes as little as 5% can retard or even stop the melting process of the shellac flakes. In the hundreds of classes we ran over many years we never had a problem dissolving shellac in the pure stuff, however if a student decided to bring their own (not pure) metho, there would almost always be a problem.

______________________________

Moisture drawn into the polish (from humidity etc) whilst working isn't really a major problem and can be overcome pretty easily as Bob said. However moisture that is trapped deep in the finish under many layers can cause a problem down the track. Especially when it is on raw timber.

______________________________

Coating boldo (called bole in Australia) isn't too much of a worry as it usually isn't as apparent, because as Marc said it is used as a base for a varnish or glue prior to applying the gold leaf. Often there is enough moisture still in the gesso and bole to cause the shellac to bloom even if there isn't any water in the metho.

______________________________

In the end, it all boils down to what you want from your work. If you are striving for excellence, you won't get it using second rate materials. If you are happy with second best then so be it. There are no hard and fast rules. What I try to do is give you the best solution to a problems as I see it. What you choose do with that information is purely up to you.

Hope this is of some help to someone. If not .................... Oh well.

Cheers - Neil :D

PS Marc In australia it is virtually impossible to purchase ethanol that is not denatured. Just about takes an act of parliment, you can only buy a small quantity and every drop has to be accounted for. They don't want anyone to make their drinks out of the stuff and not pay the piper.

[Bob Willson]

PS Marc In australia it is virtually impossible to purchase ethanol that is not denatured. Just about takes an act of parliment, you can only buy a small quantity and every drop has to be accounted for. They don't want anyone to make their drinks out of the stuff and not pay the piper. Can you make your own?

[echnidna]

I can remeber buying 4 litres of metho in the supermarket a few years ago and it smelled like a real nice red wine, didnt try it out though.
Can you get .05 by just shellacking or french polishing?

[Bob Willson]

I see that you are from Victoria Echnidna. Try some of the wines from South Australia and then compare them with the metho. I will be interested in an up-to-date comparison. :D

[Ian007]

Bob

Out of curiosity are you saying that SA wine is lacking in quality?? :confused:

or have you only brought the cheep and nasty stuff to try!!

Cheers Ian :)

[AlexS]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with cheap South Australian wines...They've been some of my best breakfasts!

[vsquizz]

Meth or eth based products are hygroscopic but not particularly so in normal use; eg they need direct contact or, to gain significant moisture from air, they would need to be sprayed in a fine mist, as in meth/water injection in turbocharger systems. Old trick for water in your fuel tank was to add a cup of metho and thus burn the water.

Some petrochemical industry standards which were in employ in Australia have been dumped in favour of others, modified or relaxed totally. Some substances are now more highly regulated and others have been "reclassified" ergo the MSDS variables. An example is unleaded petrol. Japanese car manufacturers used to be able to, and some still do, make asumptions about ULP in Australia being of at least 90.3 octane or higher. ULP sold in Australia is now 88 to 91 octane (we hope). Having been out of this field for awhile I am not entirely sure about how this affects garden variety meths but a few things I have seen tend to suggest that the quality may vary greatly from batch and manufacturer.

The reaction of an alcohol based substance and water in the prescence of certain organic compounds (such as phosphates) will intially result in the milky/cloudy effect. This may disappear if a) the moisture and solvents can dissapate and b) there is insufficient organics (and oxygen) to support the next stage of the reaction, which is biological (yes bugs). Phosphates can be freely available in cleaning compounds, detergents and mineral oils.

So what does all that waffle mean? Three things:
1) use the best products you can
2) keep everything meticulously clean
3) if your on the turps don't get too close to the campfire

[echnidna]

I dont think there are many small wineries that distil spirits so I assumed it was probably South Australian (being the largest wine producers) as it must have been the wood alcohol residues left over from distilling brandy. But it did smell real nice, but not for me from a metho bottle.

[journeyman Mick]

In australia it is virtually impossible to purchase ethanol that is not denatured. Just about takes an act of parliment, you can only buy a small quantity and every drop has to be accounted for. They don't want anyone to make their drinks out of the stuff and not pay the piper.

I have a few sources (friends of friends of friends) who sell the stuff, 2 litres at a time, no names, no questions and cash only. :D :D :D

Mick

[echnidna]

Drinking alcohol is easy enough to make,
The skill is distilling it so the methanol is discarded.
(Then we mix shellac with the non drinkables).

BTW a still is legal in oz for home use if it has a capacity below 4.5 litres.
But that dont make much booze.

I brewed up 20 litres of vodka wash once, but got thirsty before I got finished making the still so I drank the wash without distilling it, its really just a very strong wine - a bit rough on the way down, after 3 glasses I had to go to bed as I couldnt sit on a chair without falling off. It was a spirit wash somewhere around 35% proof.
Never did finish the still, maybe one day.

[journeyman Mick]

Bob,
is that 4.5 litres total capacity of the pot? (asks he who was hoping to use a 15 litre urn as the base for a still).

Micxk (hic, why isn't there a drunken smilie :p )

[echnidna]

Yes total capacity is 4.5 litres, so after you boil the water off there isnt much left after the first round. If you use Distillers yeast you can brew to about 35% proof so you bypass the first boil.

[echnidna]

Mick, The main thing about a still is to cook it as slowly as possible as the ethyl alcohol boils at a slightly lower temerature than the methyl alcohol and a few other nasties. And dont use the last 5-10% as it will be concentrated nasties.

[Bob Willson]

Bob

Out of curiosity are you saying that SA wine is lacking in quality?? :confused:

or have you only brought the cheep and nasty stuff to try!!

No Ian. Quite the opposite. And depending on exactly what you mean by cheap (or cheep) I may have done so, but I still like SA wines.

[Marc]

I think your methods are far too complicated. In Mt Isa the locals just buy Methol at Bunnings, poor it in an empty Coke bottel and voilá "white Coke".
They sem to be immune to the methanol part of the "drink"

[PeterJohn]

I haven't tried this, but a suggestion based on experience by a colleague (?) with removing excess water from Vodka is to put the tainted Meths in the freezer. The theory is that the water will freeze while the alcohol will not and can then be poured off.

I would be interested to know the results if anyone tries this.

Regards
Pete

[simon c]

Pete, freezing won't work at that concentration, there is a complex solubility relationship between water and ethanol at about the 96% concentration that makes it very hard to remove water above that level.

I remember building a distiallation column in 1st year Chem Eng practicals to get the concentration that high.

However, what you suggest is I believe how vodka was originally made - but maybe that is an urban myth

[Kris.Parker1]

You might want the fire brigade handy if you inend to distill it with an open flame as the vapours can become quite flammable.