Shed door

[burn]

Hi Peoples,

I'm looking for advice. I am closing off an entertainment area attached to a shed and will make this my new workshop. I currently have an opening of 2100 wide x 2060 high. I feel that a pair of double doors spanning the whole opening would be less secure than putting a decent frame in and say have a door opening of 1300 wide by 2000 high.

Now, I'm going to make the door myself.

I intend to make the door's frame using dovetail or mortise and tenon joints depending on what timber I use. (I've got a new Gifkins I want to try out and hence the dovetail option). I will put ply on both sides of the frame and on the outside 'side' of the door, I have a pile of cedar shiplap (spelling) which matches the rest of the shed which I'll tack onto the frame through the ply.

Now my questions:

1. Do you think a 1300 wide door would be wide enough? How many of you out there have shed doorways at 800-900 wide and find it's too narrow for some equipment? Is 1300mm too wide??

2. More importantly, what size timber should I make the frame out of? Would 100 x19mm pine be sufficient (given I use enough muntins and cross pieces)? Should I go to 90 x 35mm? If I go to the thicker timber, do I then give up the dovetail joints and go to mortise and tenon (or even half-laps)?

Any sage door advice will be appreciated!

Thanks in advance

Burn

[Wood Borer]

Burn,

I would stick to mortise and tenon. as much as I love making dovetails, I don't think they will serve the purpose as well as mortise and tenons.

Leave your dovetails for making drawers and boxes where they are better suited and if they are any good - can be seen.

- Wood Borer

[jackiew]

I've been looking at making myself some new garage doors ... if you want to go really secure apparently you want pinned mortice and tenon. Also horizontal and diagonal cross bracing ( though the ply front and back would probably make this a bit over kill ). Whatever you do don't forget to use timber which is suitable for fitting dirty great lock(s) and three hinges ( fitted of course to the side where they can't be unscrewed by the enterprising tool thief) .

One thing to consider with a wider door is its arc of swing ... the wider the door the more space you need clear in front of it ... so if it opens into the workshop you'll be wasting space and if it opens outwards think about how you are planning to use the space it opens into. That said I'd always go bigger rather than smaller for door widths ... better for visitors in wheelchairs and makes the space more flexible for either you or a future owner of the property. ( I speak as someone who bought a house where the previous owner converted most of the doors to sliding ones with pelmets .. it took me and the removal guy about 15 mins to squeeze my sofa into the lounge room and I suspect its leaving in pieces )

[seriph1]

1300 sounds a great size for a pedestrian access door - for equipment like table saws etc. and for anything you made, like a table, bench or bed, the bigger the better, so I would recommend using at least 1500 and a slider if possible.

Am I understanding you correctly when I think you want to make the shed door look something like a barn door?

If you’re making a frame then "wrapping" it front-and-back in Ply, then this is going to be one strong door. Say you’re using 18mm ply on each side, plus 19mm pine for the internal frame, provided it is well sealed the ply will give you all the rigidity needed.

[burn]

Thanks guys.

Seriph, yes, I am thinking a 'barn' style door - can't do a slider, no room to house the door on either side.

Can I use 100x19mm pine as the internal frame given I enclose it in 17mm ply?

I'll take your suggestion about going bigger - I've got the room ... all I'll do is make the door frame (external) extra strong as I would imagine a couple square metres of 17mm ply won't be light!

Thanks
Burn

[Bob Willson]

So you are talking a door that is going to finish up about 55mm thick? That is a hell of a weight to swing using a pine frame. I would tend to go for a hardwood frame and also edge strip the thing all round with a hardwood, rather than finish it with more plywood.One other thing, is the plywood of marine quality, or at the least waterproof?

[Ian007]

100x19pine for frame,
short answer NO

you should use 90x35 mgp10 ( machine graded pine)as a minimum for your frame take out 1500 for the door and you only have 300 on either side of your door
use double studs on the ends of your frames and on either side of your door
use 2 90x45mgp10 nailed together for your lintel above the door.


hope that helps

cheers Ian :)

[burn]

Ian,

Are you saying, when making the door itself - not the frame that's fixed to the shed, but the door, that I need 90x35mm internal (to the door) framing, on top of which I'll be placing 7mm ply? As someone said, a 35+7+7mm thick door would be quite heavy.

Yes, I was going to double stud the 300mm (ie 4 studs per side) frame either side of the door plus additional noggins on the hinge side for additional strength to the small frame.

Burn

[seriph1]

man a sketch would help

:)

[burn]

Ian,

Are you saying, when making the door itself - not the frame that's fixed to the shed, but the door, that I need 90x35mm internal (to the door) framing, on top of which I'll be placing 7mm ply? As someone said, a 35+7+7mm thick door would be quite heavy.

Yes, I was going to double stud the 300mm (ie 4 studs per side) frame either side of the door plus additional noggins on the hinge side for additional strength to the small frame.

Burn

[Ian007]

no frame only
door as you want
but as your tools are in there the stronger the better

cheers Ian :)

[seriph1]

probably sounds silly, but as you have the tools and wish to use them, why not make a traditional barn door with mortised and tenoned joints, "Z" rails and shiplap infills?

[burn]

Seriph ... not silly. This is what I'm after, ideas on how to make the door.

At your suggestion, I've attached (not to scale) drawings. I want the door to be fairly strong. Just putting the shiplap on, I don't think would be strong enough. Perhaps ply on the inside and shiplap on the outside may work.

Basically, I want to know what would the best internal door framing. In my picture, I've used 100 x 19mm framing and mortise and tenon all the points marked a. and just half lap the points marked b. and just butt or dowel the diagonals to the rails and stiles. But I don't think I'd get a strong M&T joint in 19mm pine, hence my original idea of dovetails.

[jackiew]

if you've got a local library then they will probably have some useful books which show you different designs of doors ( i know my local library has them because i've borrowed them - look under all of woodwork/building/gardening). I think the crossed - cross-bracing is probably intended to be more ornamental than functional ( but i'm open to being corrected here ). In the books they showed diagonal bracing with the diagonal toed into the horizontal rail ... hard to describe but a wedge shaped cut was made into the horizontals and the ends of the diagonal angled so that it fitted into the cut. The same book recommended pinning the mortice and tenon joint.

Only thing you've got to think about with shiplapping the outside only is how long it would take someone to lever off the shiplap to get into the shed ( its ok to tell me i'm paranoid ... i'm happy to admit to it ).

[Ian007]

2. More importantly, what size timber should I make the frame out of? Would 100 x19mm pine be sufficient

sorry i took your Q to mean the frame and not the frame of the door itself
your frame scetch looks good.
l would go with the barn door if you want to show off your joinery

my 2cents worth

cheers Ian :)

[Wood Borer]

Burn,

If you are going for the barn door you can use dovetails for the braces. I have done this on gates before and they turn out pretty good in looks and functionality. You will probably need to make them by hand as the jig is more for edge to edge type dovetails.

If you want the ship lap look and security, consider having two layers of shiplap with a sheet of metal in between to provide a barrier for the crooks. This will also make it a fire rated door if the metal gauge etc complies with the standards.

- Wood Borer

[seriph1]

thanks for the pics..... perhaps consider ripping or routing grooves in the ply to emulate the shiplap - it adds a process but removes another and achieves the barn-door effect. Also, I feel too that hand cut dovetails would be the way to go, but then I would probably use a single piece of ply(grooved both sides) and mirrored pine frames on both sides to achieve the look..... I guess all this depends on how much effort you want to go to before actually using your shed to make the stuff you really want :D

[Bob Willson]

Hey Burn

You are confusing me. In one post you are going to use 17mm ply and in another you have specified 7mm ply. Which is correct?

[burn]

Sorry Bob.

I sat down and did some add up (after someones comment about the door depth) and 2 x 17 + 19 seemed a bit too deep - especially if I had to add shiplap onto the outside.

I think I will do the internal door's frame in 100 x 19mm, put 7 to 10mm ply on the inside and put the shiplap directly onto the frame on the outside. Then edge the sides of the door with some hardwood - butted to be under the shiplap, but slightly rebated when covering the internal ply.

I'll also pull my finger out and get down to the local library to see what books they may have.

Burn

[journeyman Mick]

Burn,
that's going to be one big, heavy door. Have you considered having a pair of doors instead? That way the frame and hinges will be less stressed and for general access you will only need to open half the doorway. It will also mean you can make the door frames a bit lighter. A lot of the older houses round here had framed and ledged doors around 800 to 1000 wide and used 3/4" boards on 7/8" framing (19mm on 22mm).

Mick

[glenn k]

So you are talking a door that is going to finish up about 55mm thick? That is a hell of a weight to swing using a pine frame. I would tend to go for a hardwood frame and also edge strip the thing all round with a hardwood, rather than finish it with more plywood.One other thing, is the plywood of marine quality, or at the least waterproof?
I don't know about all ply wood factories, but one that I new of made all their ply with the same glue because it was cheaper than changing the glue. Their marine ply was far more expensive because of the marine tax on it. This was the only difference.

I think pine would be too soft to hold screws with a door of this weight as Bob says hardwood trim.