Timber Flooring Options, on top or rip it?

[Theva]

Hi,

Need some advice and comments on pros and cons of installing new 19mm flooring on top of existing timber flooring. :confused:

Existing setup is 130mm baltic pine on B&J in original part of the house. Tongue / groves have cracked in few areas and some minor gaps (1 to 2mm) but not visible. Newer part of the house have 80mm pine top nailed T&G broads . No creeping sound anywhere. Subfloor ventilation is good.

My original plan was to remove existing flooring and install new 19mm turpentine flooring (19mm).

After observing experts comments on another thread, I have to rethink my options ;) .

My questions is, Should I remove the existing boards or install the new ones on top? Appearance wise 80mm secret nailing boards or 130mm top nailing boards?

All skirting, doors (expect the front and back) are off so its now or never :p .

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Theva

[seriph1]

just wondering if there will be a step if you do lay the boards on top.....

[Rusty]

Theva;

A reputable floor layer should be able to answer your question re: laying over an existing floor (should be OK IMHO) as well as having a display or at least photos of finished floors in various cover sizes.

Since you've read that other thread on T&G groove flooring you'll understand my non-committal answer!;)

Best of Luck;
Rus.

[seriph1]

just an added thought too .... if you are applying an overlay floor, you won't need it to be 19mm

[Theva]

Seriph1,

There will not be any steps expect at the front & back doors at the door sill, may be I can cover it with some trims. We do not like the thinner overlay type pre-finish flooring, so 19mm hardwood is the go.

Rus,

I am more worried about getting it nailed through existing boards, it should hold on to the old hardwood joists. Do I have to get the old boards sanded to improve levelling and gluing etc etc..

Some of the areas were covered with cork tiles on underlay. The old staples or some of them are still there :eek: .

Regards,

Theva

[seriph1]

heya

There are full timber, unfinished overlay floorboards available in a wide range of materials..... I too am no fan of all the "new" overlays - these look and feel exactly like flooring, yet are cheaper. A previous client of mine makes it here in Melbourne and they have a yard or office in Sydney/Alexandria though I am not sure if they sell it from there - feel free to call them in Melbourne on 1300 887 588 to find out..... there are quite a few other places that make/sell it. Re your trims - I am not a fan of trims for floors but sometimes it is just what we have to do ..... there are ways of making them very nice though - sing out if you want to talk further abt that

Cheers

[glock40sw]

G'day Theva.
You can leave the existing floor and Glue and secret nail over it or pull it up and lay the new floor to the B&J.
If you lay it over the old floor, try to run the boards at 90 deg to the existing floor. Use BOSTIK Ultraset glue or SIKAFLEX glue. secret nail the Turp 80mm.
The old floor will act as a moisture barrier. If the old floor is in good condition and not squeaking, nail to it. You might want to get it level sanded first.

You can lay the 80mm in the same direction as the existing floor. However, you will need to glue & Secret nail using longer nails or better yet, use longer staples so as to pick up the joists under the existing floor.
Also, if you are going to do the job yourself, Go to the Timber Queensland website and D/load the TRADAC data sheet pertaining to laying a timber floor over an existing timber floor. http://www.tradac.org.au (http://www.tradac.org.au)
Or PM me and I can email it to you.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor

Grafton

[silentC]

If it was me, I'd rip the old one out. You're going to have to cut down all your doors and do something with the thresholds of your external entries. Not to mention that you'll be transmitting any problems in the old floor through to the new one. Was the floor laid before the frame was erected? That might be the decider...

I'd imagine you could probably get some cash for the old flooring too.

[Marc]

Old floor out, new floor in, agreed. :D

[Theva]

Trevor,

I am a bit reluctant to rely on the holding ability of existing boards, so nails / staples should reach joists. It seems that turps comes in 80mm only, 130mm is a bit hard to get around here. More searching …

Darren & Marc,

Boards in the older part of the house are at least 50 years old. The rest, say 30 years. So, as they say, when in doubt don’t do it.

I will stick to the original plan, better to be safe than sorry.

Thanks guys,


Regards,

Theva

[glock40sw]

G'day Theva.
Turp is not as common as it once was. We only supply Turp in 60 or 80mm cover width.

If you decide to remove the existing floor, No worries.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[Theva]

Trevor,

I got samples of 80mm turps (probably from your mob, largest operation in Grafton - not hard to guess), still looking for 130mm. It appears that another mill around SilentC's part of the world supply them, waiting for confirmation.

Regards,

Theva

[glock40sw]

G'day Theva.
Make sure that you would be getting Turp. Some places will supply Northern Box as Turp. N/Box is crap.

Hooroo
Etc etc etc

[E. maculata]

Northern Box???? what the h%ll would that be in us "old timey" terms before the industry marketing gurus renamed it Trev? ;)

Bruce C.

[Theva]

Trevor,

I have seen some so called Northern Box, only in 80/90mm decking, nothing in wider boards. The samples I have are too dark to pass as turps. Local timber yard guys have no idea about its species / origin either.

Is turps commonly available around Coffs?

E.maculata, Should it be C :D ?

Regards,

Theva

[E. maculata]

Yep according to the science types I probably should be C. Maculata, but I'm old fashioned that way, spotty will always be the defining euc in my mind.
On the "Northern Box" issue I was baiting Trev as one of his competitors sells Pacific island or S.E Asian plantation B Box under this name.

Incidentally ...Nice to make your acquaintance.

Bruce C

[glock40sw]

G'day Bruce.

You are lucky that you use the "E". or I would slap you up side the head next time I see you.

There are a lot of people on this forum that know bugger all about Hwd. Maybe we need to educate them.
You being Ex State Forest and me being Hwd processor.
What do yo think?

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton
P.S. Sean got the crap beat out of him at the Village green thursday night.

[glock40sw]

G'day Theva.

Mate, Turp is getting hard to find. That is why you will mainly find it in 80mm and not 130. 80mm is more accepted than 130 so it is cut to suit the market. We do not do it in 130 cause we can sell all the 80mm that we produce. Usually presold before it is even cut.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[Marc]

There are a lot of people on this forum that know bugger all about Hwd. Maybe we need to educate them.


Trevor, for one week in the forum and 12 posts, don't you think you are being a bit precocious with your value judgement? What will you say in one-year time?
Considering you have made no secret of your commercial interest, I think your post remain unchallenged only because you don't own the business you are promoting so relentlessly.

Hic puer est stultissimus omnium!

[E. maculata]

VAH! DENUONE LATINE LOQUEBAR? ME INEPTUM. INTERDUM MODO ELABITUR.
Whilst being no stranger to industry forums based around timber with a grand total of 4 this may still seem presumptuious........
Lads, back into your respective corners. As in all aspects of life one does not always agree with other's opinions, doesn't make us stopid just different, or differently informed. I think there are many people who don't live, eat, sleep timber as some of us do. I think they have whats called a normal life.
At the risk of sounding condescending, Marc you seem from your posts to be a very informed intelligent person whom may not suffer fools easily, as is Trev, pool the collective experience & resources and how many could be educated correctly in the ultimate use of this wonderous medium within and outside of this arena?

with much tugging of forelock.

Bruce
QUANTUM MATERIAE MATERIETUR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM POSSIT MATERIARI?

[glock40sw]

G'day Marc.
I have been back through the postings for the last few months and there are a lot of post relating to Hardwood. However some of them are way off the mark.

As for commercial interest. I have not mentioned who I work for. I am Not posting for commercial interest. I am only posting here to give people the benefit of my years of experience in dealing with Hardwood T&G and the Hwd Species on a whole.

My experience comes from years of hands on. Not text books. I have done the crappy jobs and I am not a shiny bum polishing a seat with an alphabet after my name.

My judgement on site and product problems can mean the difference between a $50,000 tearout or a perfect flooring installation.

If you prefer, I will stop posting here, and let people find out about Hwd flooring the hard way.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[E. maculata]

Theva to answer your question on avialability of turpentine, I may be able to help. Turp is a semi wet forest species and usually grows around and in gully & water course areas, of course we no longer log these areas, those that are available from the slopes and drier soils suffer from "brown stain" (a bacterial rot?) apart from these issues it also is greatly prized for its in water durability, ergo the straighter cleaner examples harvested from my region tend to go this end use, the lesser quality to processing. As an aside, I have always been led to believe that Brush Box is very closely related, and are quite often seen together, the external similarity and the shared properties of the timbers seem to support this.

Bruce C.

[glock40sw]

VAH! DENUONE LATINE LOQUEBAR? ME INEPTUM. INTERDUM MODO ELABITUR.
SNIP
SNIP
Bruce
QUANTUM MATERIAE MATERIETUR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM POSSIT MATERIARI?
Bruce.
Type in bloody Australian will ya.
I don't know the fancy pancy lingo

Hooroo
Etc etc etc

[Marc]

My experience comes from years of hands on. Not text books. I have done the crappy jobs and I am not a shiny bum polishing a seat with an alphabet after my name.

My judgement on site and product problems can mean the difference between a $50,000 tearout or a perfect flooring installation.

If you prefer, I will stop posting here, and let people find out about Hwd flooring the hard way.

Trevor, your attempt at gaining support by putting education down, implies you assume the rest of the forum participates in your bias. A dangerous assumption. To say your contribution is irreplaceable is very presumptuous.

If I where you I would stick to contribute on what you know best, apparently hardwood flooring, and leave the personal remarks out. They are out of your league and can only harm your apparently valuable contribution.

I value contributions as any one else does, yet I value manners and tone of contributions much more.

[Theva]

Thanks Bruce,

Specific question for the learned experts: Is Coffs harbour part of our older domain, if so any comments on turps availability there?

The miller I an sussing out is from that part of the world. Of course, any orders will be placed by my normal timber supplier; the miller & dealer are both reputable mobs and know their stuff.

"ergo" - Never seen its use in written English ever hence the learned title.

Regards,

Theva

[lis]

Guys, guys, guys! How disappointing! I found this forum and was excited that I could get some really useful info about different timbers, especially northern box and its suitability for a nice front fence (steel posts, horizontal timber slats). Here I was thinking I would get heaps of help from this forum, only to discover it seems to be just another place for men to puff up their chests and indulge their egos. Marc and glock...please, gentlemen...let the battle of testosterone go and get back to adding real value to the forum.

[E. maculata]

I reckon they've long since buried any hatchets, that mild exchange took place over 2 years ago:p .

[seriph1]

Hi Lis - welcome to the forum - post your question in the appropriate area and watch what happens :D - I believe you will get a world of brilliant advice, together with a good smattering of opinion and conjecture - just like anywhere.

Above all - have fun!

ps. Sounds like a nice fence idea, if done right ..... just have to ensure there is plenty of bracing - pre-prime or pre-stain your timber and use stainless screws if possible, but galvanized if not - also pre-drill the steel, once it is up and screw from behind so there's no need for filler and no holes visible from the street ..... just my thoughts.

[glock40sw]

Guys, guys, guys! How disappointing! I found this forum and was excited that I could get some really useful info about different timbers, especially northern box and its suitability for a nice front fence (steel posts, horizontal timber slats). Here I was thinking I would get heaps of help from this forum, only to discover it seems to be just another place for men to puff up their chests and indulge their egos. Marc and glock...please, gentlemen...let the battle of testosterone go and get back to adding real value to the forum.

G'day.
Damn. I haven't reread these old posts since 2004. Funny stuff...

Lis. You may find that Northern Box will not be suited to external use unless you seal the exposed end grain of each piece.
I know it is used for decking, but it would not be my first choice for external applications.
I would be looking toward Tallowood, Grey Ironbark or Tanalith E treated Spotted Gum.

BTW...in the famous word of Skyhooks...Ego is not a dirty word. :D

[Larry McCully]

Ok this is the go............. You can either rip up the old one and install a newee, or the more cost effective way is to throw a few nails into any loose boards and install a new one over the top, If you want to install the new one over the top and in the same direction, you will need to lay a sheet 6mm ply over it first , then lay the new one. This will prevent any creeping due to seosional movement of the old boards. Or simply run the new ones at 90 deg to the old one. You do need to sand the old floor and remove any existing coatings. You wont get a effictive adhesion when glueing and secret nailing, and it also levels the old floor to get a flat surface.Under cut all the door jams and archetraves and install under them, cut the doors down, bevel any boards at tiled areas if needed, and it will be all fine. It is better to get a professional to do all this.

[Larry McCully]

You dont need to worry about going into the joists. The old floor is pinned down and has sufficient strength to eccecpt the secret nail from the new boards.
WE IN AUSTRALIA BOAST OF SOME OF THE RICHEST COLOURS IN SPECIES AVAIL ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Our hardwoods are some of the finest available. In my opionion i would comfortable use any species available to me from manufactures. I have installed and sanded all of the above discussed species with great success and performance. We have a number of fine manufactures and all of them back their product with confidence and integrity.

[journeyman Mick]

Pssst! Larry,
the original post was a bit over 2 years ago, I reckon he's got it sorted now;) .

Mick

[HJ0]

While where here. Thanks for that advice the other day mick.;) :D





HJ0 Cheers