poly pipe and push fit?

[brettdel]

G'day all,

Haven't been here for awhile, love the look of the new forum.

anyway

Just wondering if anyone has had any dealings with poly pipe and push fit fittings??

Want to get a tap put out in the front yard, only about a 8m run, and trying to get a plumber is nearly impossibly. So I thought I'd do it myself. Was going to go copper but haven't got the oxy gear for brazing and the poly option just looks so easy - am I missing something??


Many Thanks
Brett

[craigb]

I suppose that you could go with the Poly, I'd still be inclined to do the copper pipe though. You can use the Yorkeshire pre soldered connectors.

That way you only need a butane burner rather than oxy gear. Admiitedly the joints won't be as strong, but if they are not going to be subject to movement then they'l handle it o.k.

[silentC]

Brett,

Not sure on the poly pipe, only ever used it with tank pressure.

If you want to go copper, you can use compression fittings. They don't need to be soldered. They have a nylon olive which is compressed to seal the connection. All you need is a spanner. If you do go this way, make sure you use the nylon olives, not the copper ones.

[macca2]

Brett
I would not use poly pipe but would go for the white PVC with the glued joints.. Done properly they are a good alternative to copper. You may need to use a copper riser for the tap fitting, although I have used PVC risers and no problems providing they are secured to a solid post or wall.

Macca

[jackiew]

I replumbed a bathroom in the uk and used push-fit plastic pipe and fittings and they were the biz ... v easy to use and provided you didn't try to bend the plastic pipe into too sharp a radius no leaks ( whereas my first attempts at using compression fittings sprang water in all directions :eek: ).

[silentC]

I don't know, call me old fashioned but plastic just doesn't do it for me. I know that mains-rated PVC is approved for domestic and has it's advantages over copper. I know of people who have plumbed their house with it and had no problems so far. I just don't like the idea of running mains-pressure water through plastic pipes inside my house. But that's just me.

Jackie, compression fittings are dead easy to use. The only time I had a leak was when using copper olives on a bit of pipe that was slightly out of round. The nylon ones do a better job of conforming to the shape of the pipe. Plumbers hate them because they let any mug do his own connections. My dad (also a plumber) likes them though because they make his life easier.

[Bunyip]

I'm going to go against the grain here.

When you say poly, most people probably think of the domestic irrigation type - do not use this.

I do however suggest you use rural poly pipe with compression fittings. All you need is a hacksaw to cut the pipe. The pipe comes in a number of wall thicknesses, and will handle pressures far exceeding towns water.

The problem with PVC is that it becomes brittle over time. Poly will not, and has a lot more give in it. This type of pipe system is now being used widely in both industrial, commercial and domestic situations.

All materials will be available locally.

[Bob Willson]

The poly pipe for use with mains water is indeed extremely easy to use. I have plumbed up my garden pond and watering system using this stuff because it was much cheaper and more flexible (I don't mean sharp corners) but like CilentC I would always tend toward copper pipe inside walls etc as I just don't trust poly pipe to seal properly over the long term. So, to answer your question, if the pipe run is entirely on the outside of your house then poly is OK. Otherwise, if at all inside the house do this part in copper with the compression fittings Silent mentioned.

PS keep it well away from any areas that you garden as it is allergic to forks and such like.

[jackiew]

PS keep it well away from any areas that you garden as it is allergic to forks and such like.

perhaps an overlapping line of old floor tiles or similar laid over the top of the pipe if it is buried in the ground protect it from stray fork tines ( or perhaps run the pipe through old drain pipes )

[Sturdee]

I am with Bunyip on this one.

About 7 years ago I replaced all the gal water pipe with poly pipe and have had no problems with it at all. Where the pipe is buried in the garden I laid a layer of old bricks on top of the pipe to stop me inadvertantly digging through the pipe.

Since then I have noticed that 80 % of the new building in our area uses only poly pipe, both under ground as well as in the wall and for both hot and cold water. The plumbers I have spoken to love it as it is quick and easyand approved by our water supply authority.

Brett, Bunnings sell the pipe by the metre and all the screw on fittings that you will need, the fittings are more expensive than those for copper but the only tools you will need are a hacksaw and some shifters.

Peter.

[Bob Willson]

If you go this way then don't get the bits from Bunnings they are too expensive. Go to a proper plumbers supply shop. They will be able to offer you great advice and the cost should be heaps less.

[brettdel]

Thanks for the replies all,

Had a bit of a hunt around today and just another question if anyone can help.
(Probably a really stupid one at that, but been on doggos and the poor old brain is working at about 10% capacity – my excuse anyway ;) )

I can get compression adaptors;

16mm push-fit x 15mm copper and
20mm push-fit x 20mm copper

does the 15mm & 20mm copper equate to ½ inch and ¾ inch pipe??

Many thanks again

Brett

[outback]

At last someone has asked a question which I feel qualified to answer. This doesn't make me right, just means I think I am.

Poly pipe comes in more grades than a footy code.
Low pressure stuff, like the stuff they sell for garden drip irrigation systems is absolutely no good for mains application.

Rural grade or class "B" is rated up to 60 psi, (you work it out in Kpa). I have installed more kilometres of this than I care to think about. The big plus with this is the ease of use, cut the end square, slip on the nut, then the compression ring, and flog in the insert, all ya need to do then is do up the nut to the fitting.
The downside is cost of fittings, the pipe is cheap as chips, but the fittings cost a heap.
Whilst rated at 60 psi, I have it running at 100 psi in one application, no worries.

You then run up through various grades of poly, the main difference is wall thickness, obviously these are rated at a higher pressure, and I would guess one of these, (dunno which) is the one being used in new housing as alreadymentioned.

The other downside is the fork through the pipe scenario, but this is true to a degree of all pipes, poly only takes a little whack, PVC a bit bigger and copper a reasonable thud, but I defy anyone to make a pipe impervious to my missus. :D , she seems to have no trouble finding the buggers.

[scooter]

Brett, ditto to all those in favour of mains pressure poly, I used it to replace the gal cold water pipes & it was a piece of p15s. Very easy to work with.

Would recommend a pair of plastic pipe cutters if you have a heap of cuts to do, they look slightly similar to those ratchet action secateurs, cost about $12 from a plumbing or irrigation supplier, and give you a quick clean cut.

A plumber suggested going up a size (due to the greater poly pipe wall thickness) relative to copper pipe, ie using 1" poly where 3/4" copper would be used - in my case for the runs under the house.

I think that you're right, in this metricated world 1/2" copper is calld 15mm on labels, and 3/4" denoted 20mm. God forbid we call them what everyone is familiar with already :eek: (The same goes for millibars vs. hectopascals - exactly the same measure, just a different (metric) name. Thank goodness for all the flyboys (& gals) out there that altitude is still in feet.

I heard somewhere that new houses that are plumbed with PVC still use poly from the meter to the house - due to poly's greater flexibility. Poly is also reputed to incur less water hammer on long runs compared to the alternatives.

If you decide to go with copper ditto what Silent said about compression fittings - very easy to use.

Cheers...........Sean

[DarrylF]

My dad & I used poly pipe to install a tap in the backyard next to the garden shed at their house 15+ years ago and it worked fine. I'm sure it was agricultural grade stuff.

On the copper stuff, you can use MAPP gas torches rather than an oxy if you wanted to use copper. They're about $75 at Bunnies - yellow bottle. They work well for hardening steel for homemade tools too. Just make sure you get a pipe cutter - quite cheap, kinda like a small g-clamp with 2 rollers and a cutting blade - to cut the pipe, the fittings tend not to work too well with a hacksawed cut.

Even with copper pipe I'd lay some bricks, tiles, whatever over the top when you bury it - just safer that way.

[silentC]

The plumbers I have spoken to love it as it is quick and easy and approved by our water supply authority.

I just want to point out that 'quick and easy' from the installer's point of view does not necessarily equate to 'lasting and durable' from the home owner's point of view. Let's just see how the stuff is going in 40-50 years. That's how old most of the plumbing is in my house. ;)

[jackiew]

hopefully silentC that old pipework is copper and not lead ... which is implicated in mental impairment in children :eek:

[silentC]

Some copper, some galvanised. Our water meter sticks up out of the lawn on 8" tails and has been run over at least twice. The ID of the pipe must be down to half what it was but we still get plenty of pressure.

If any of it was lead, it would be too late for me, since I spent most of my childhood in this house :eek: Guess I'll have to find another excuse for mental impairment ;)

[Bunyip]

I can get compression adaptors;

16mm push-fit x 15mm copper and
20mm push-fit x 20mm copper

does the 15mm & 20mm copper equate to ½ inch and ¾ inch pipe??

Many thanks again

Brett

Yes, yes and yes

Adapters to copper and iron are readily available.

Interestingly, we have a mixture of copper, cast iron, PVC, gal and poly pipe on site (industrial site), both exposed and u/ground. The gal had clogged up with scale, the copper is always getting pin holes in it, the cast iron and PVC is brittle, and the poly is going strong. Admittedly, some of the piping is 80 years old. Some of the poly was installed about 15 years ago. Even the stuff is direct sunlight is like new.

[seriph1]

can't say 100% for certain, but don't think there is any lead waterpipe in Australia anymore.... one benefit of being a "young" non-Roman-settled nation I guess - and as for Poly.... I used it 15 yrs ago for house plumbing (with adapters to feed into short runs of copper to internal outlets) and until I did the place up for sale it was going strong ..... only changed it due to appearance

:)

[jackiew]

http://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/leadsafe/leadinf8.htm

you're nearly right seriph1 - apparently lead piping is rare here but that doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist ... I suspect owner-builders when regs weren't so strict would have used whatever was conveniently available. And as the article points out lead was used in joints which can also be a problem.

my last house in the uk which was built in 1914 still had some lead piping ( fortunately hot water pipes not cold ) when I moved in - and I'm pretty sure the water authority was still replacing some of the last lead pipe from street-main to houses ( stop cock is usually in the house in the uk ... water metering is only just beginning to take hold ).

[brettdel]

Afternoon all,

Just an update. Finished putting the tap in today and decided to go with the poly pipe and “push – fit” fittings (Auspex (http://www.auspex.com.au/)). What a breeze to use.

Couple of things I picked up

Don’t cut pipe with a hacksaw but, as scooter has already pointed out, use pipe secateurs. Gives a quick clean cut.

Bending (thanks for the warning Jackiew): minimum cold bending radii is 10 times the pipe diameter - 20mm pipe/min radii 200mm

Compression adaptors: I thought they would be the nylon olive type but when I got them home the end of the pipe needs to be flared. Which is great if you had any idea on how to flare the end of a pipe! :eek: $10 tool fixed that.

So at the end of the day got a new tap in :) , no leaks :D and learnt some new stuff :p – gota be happy with that.

Thanks again for all the help.

Brett

[soundman]

just one point.

I hope you sanded the trench.

our area is clay & rock. its common to see abrasion problems long term if the treches are not sanded.

the inlaws place had a sucsession of leaks in the 75m to the road. at just about every case a rock was found in contact with the pipe.

We relaid the lot about 6 months ago in poly.

[Bob Willson]

I hope you sanded the trench.
What grits do you recommend soundman? 80, then 120 through to about 800 for a really smooth finish? :D

[Scooterscum]

Just a note of interest about compression fittings on copper pipe.
I've talked to quite a few plumbers on job sites that I have worked on (I'm always picking other tradies brains when I'm doing a project at home!!) about compression fittings.
They all say to use the copper olives instead of the nylon ones. According to them, the nylon ones can distort after time and allow the fitting to leak. :eek: I don't know if that's true or wether they just don't like new technology!!! ;)
They also use teflon tape on both sides of the copper olive to help avoid leaks.
Regards
Simon

[journeyman Mick]

Nylon olives will go hard and brittle over time, especially if used with hot water. If there is any vibration in the pipes at all (from water hammer, earthquakes, dancing elephants etc etc) then the union will start to leak. I've replaced nylon olives a lot on boat plumbing as there's always plenty of heat and vibration on boats. Best bet is to avoid compression fittings as far as possible and silver solder all joints.

Mick