T&G Timber floor options

[grinner]

G'day

I'm about to start an extension to my house, 50's weatherboard. The extension subfloor will be constructed of concrete stumps, timber bearers & joists.

I want to have polished solid timber floors in the extension. As I see it I have two options, 1. Lay T&G boards directly on joists, or 2. Lay chipboard floor, then lay T&G boards on chipboard.

I'm just after some opions on the pros & cons of the above options.

thanks

Grinner

[Frenchie]

Are you going to do the work or will you subcontract the work out?

If you are doing the work yourself, then the particleboard approach will give you plenty of flexibility. You can establish a working platform very early and get on with the extensions with little concern about the floor during construction. You can have the finished surface laid at the end of the job with little chance of damaging.

If you have someone else carry out the construction I would get their opinion on both the practicality and expense of the exercise.

[grinner]

Hi Frenchie,

I was planning to do the majority of work myself, and sub out the more difficult bits.

[antman]

Hi Grinner,
We put a brushbox floor in my parents place a few years ago and at the time we were offered a yellow tongue floor with the brushbox 'glued' on top. The builder said that the benefit was that there were no nails to punch and fill. We ended up going with the boards onto the joists, not sure why, cost I suspect.
Maybe something to consider??
Anthony

[grinner]

thanks antman,

I've just got back from the local timber yard and was discussing it with one of the guys there. It will cost about $500 to do the area (6m x 8m) in yellowtounge, then add the cost of whatever I decide to put on top.

[journeyman Mick]

Grinner,
if we leave aside the particleboard flooring for a minute, there's two ways to lay a timber floor:
1) Lay floor on joists then build and stand walls and roof.
2) Build subfloor, walls, roof etc then lay floor, in between walls.

1) pros: faster, gives you a working platform. Cons: flooring is exposed to weather and needs to be coated with "combat" or similar.

2) pros:flooring is protected from weather. Cons:have to walk on and build walls on top of bare joists, need to cut flooring around all the internal walls, need to fit joist trimmers.

If you are confident you're going to get the walls up and roof on quickly and that the weather will be on your side then option 1 is the go. If you're not confident that this will be the case then laying the particleboard first and then going with option 2 will give you a working platform and negate the need for joist trimmers, just leaving you to do a bit of cutting in.

Mick

[gemi_babe]

Sorry to barge in on the tech side of things but since the subject was about old houses, concrete stumps etc. I would like to pick your brains...

I have just bought my first home. It was built sometime in the 1920-30's. It is completely inside and out of Jarrah. Pressed metal ceiling in the lounge (georgous!)

Why Grinner, have you gone for concrete stumps and not wooden? What am I going to be up for in the years to come with my Jarrah stumps and what things should I do to make sure nothing bad goes wrong with them???

I understand about termites and water rot, but anything else?

Thanks for this fantastic site.
Hope you guys don't mind a girl joining up :P

[ozwinner]

Sorry to barge in on the tech side of things but since the subject was about old houses, concrete stumps etc. I would like to pick your brains...

I have just bought my first home. It was built sometime in the 1920-30's. It is completely inside and out of Jarrah. Pressed metal ceiling in the lounge (georgous!)

Why Grinner, have you gone for concrete stumps and not wooden? What am I going to be up for in the years to come with my Jarrah stumps and what things should I do to make sure nothing bad goes wrong with them???

I understand about termites and water rot, but anything else?

Thanks for this fantastic site.
Hope you guys don't mind a girl joining up :P
Hi
You will get more replys if you start your own thread, that way people will see the title that you give it. ;)

Cheers, Al :)

[soundman]

whatever you do, make sure its level.

Check it at every stage & correct as early as you can.

I know a lot of the (lesser) building professionals will saay it don't matter but a realy flat floor is a happy thing.

[grinner]

Thanks for the continuing replies.

First to Mick, I'm anticipating that there may be some weeks from when the floor goes down to when the lid goes on, and being a Victorian winter, there is a good chance it will get wet, so I take your point about protecting the floor.

I've almost convinced myself about laying the yellowtounge first, then laying the final floor finish later. Gives me some options if the budget gets squeezed etc.

To gemi babe, Why concrete?, doesn't rot, less attractive to termites, cheaper. I've replaced a couple of the current stumps, and some of them have been rotten just below ground level, also it seem to be what the local builders are using around my area.

To soundman, yes I agree, I'll try and make it as level as I can. I have a retired builder who's giving me advice, so I'll make sure he's around when it comes to setting stumps heights etc.

One last one for Mick, what is a joist trimmer?

Grinner

[Frenchie]

If you go for option 2 as Mick has suggested, the flooring will in some cases not end where the is a support to nail into. In this case you will need to add "joist trimmers". These will be additional supports to pick up the end of the flooring.

Hope that helps.

[seriph1]

one thing not often considered when doing overlay, or secondary flooring, especially on extensions - that's any floor that is placed on another substrate like chipboard, is the final level of the floor, as it feeds into the existing home's floors.

If you want the existing floor to marry in with the newie, make certain that finished height of your joists take into account the thickness of the two materials ..... just my opinion, but I feel it makes for a far nicer transition, regardless of materials.

By this I mean, say your home has 3 to 4 inch Ash or Messmate floors (typical in 50's Victorian homes) and you are choosing to contrast the material with 4 to 5 inch Blackbutt or Bluegum - several things will be happening .... there will be the variation of material, apparent in grain-figure, dimension and colour - also, there will be a visible join between the two spaces. Adding to all this might then be a step, or a strip of some metal or timber material.... or a combination.

Sometimes I advise clients that have an existing extension to "not" try to disguise the transition, but to celebrate it (sounds wanky I know but there you have it :D ) using a wide piece of material - perhaps a wide piece of Redgum, or even slate or other stone. When there is also a step to deal with, wide material can be used to “feather” the difference by creating an elongated wedge, if that makes sense.

Bacchus Marsh does get chilly so the added chipboard couldn’t hurt, though as you noted, it will sure add bucks to the project. Frenchy makes a great point regarding the practicalities of chipboard during construction. Perhaps you could get prefab (available from a firm in Gisborne) walls and roof trusses (and help!) and lay floor, erect walls and trusses, then fix the roof within a few days, only requiring relatively simple temporary weather-proofing…. Depends of course on a bunch of factors…and it’s way too easy for me to suggest all of this, sitting warmly at home in Kilmore. J

Best of luck with it!

[grinner]

Firstly, thanks Frenchie for explaining what a joist trimmer is, makes sense.

Steve, I have thought about the final floor height, and was going to make provisions for it. As for the transition between the old and new, I was thinking of making a feature of it.

I was planning to use prefrab trusses and walls, and have been chasing companies in Melton and Geelong, I will have to look up the one in Gisborne.

Thanks All
Grinner

[glock40sw]

G'day Grinner.
Mate, You Could have the best of both worlds. Firstly, T&G flooring is my bread and butter. I manufacture the stuff.
I would suggest that you firstly lay a Yellow Tongue over the joists. Finish your construction, then have the Y/Tongue level sanded. Then have a Secret nail profile 80x19mm endmatched floor glued and nailed to the Y/Tongue and use nails long enough to go through and pickup the joists as well. This will give you a fantastic floor that will be rock solid.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[Rusty]

G'day Grinner!

I work for a flooring distributor and have seen thousands of metres of T&G wasted by builders who thought " a bit of rain won't hurt it." Of course, we are fanatic about protecting the product and strongly recommend that any building be finished to lock up stage at least- preferably with all wet trades completed -and the timber laid out and acclimatised for 2-3 weeks before laying. A highly variable ambient moisture content level (i.e Melbourne weather) and large North facing windows are the enemies of solid timber strip flooring!

If you are in any kind of rush, then put your yellow tongue down first and your solid floor at your leisure. A well acclimatised floor is less prone to movement and subsequent splitting etc, as I'm sure you would realise. www.timber.net.au (http://www.timber.net.au/) has a bunch of good info on all this and more.

BTW, Trevor from Grafton, any clues to which mill you are from? We have a few suppliers up that way...:)

[Rusty]

Polyurethane bad! Tung oil good!

-Rus.

[Marc]

I would have some concerns about tongue and groove flooring on top of particleboard.
Tongue and groove boards need to have air on both sides in order to remain stable and straight. Build poorly ventilated sub flooring and watch your floorboards cup. Unfortunately, this is exactly what will eventually happen if you put floorboards on top of particleboard, and no ammount of glue will keep them flat.
I have seen a job like that where the boards not only cupped up but started wedging against each other so badly that some of the grooved board started protruding over the next board.
The times I have laid floorboards, I built makeshift flooring along the most transited places with a bunch of second hand particleboards from a demolition place, until lock up and then brought in the boards, left them for a few weeks and then cut the floor in.

[glock40sw]

G'day Marc.
Mate, If the job is done right, there will be no problems. If B&J construction, you need plenty of subfloor vents. No dead air spots under the floor.
Our T&G is dried to suit all EMC requirements. Over the last 7 years, the only 3 flooring problems that I have inspected have all been site related. If you are going to have a T&G Hardwood ( Not Vic or tassie crap, but real Northern N.S.W. hardwood) floor, you need to talk to the people in the know. It will save you many $ in the long run.

I work for the largest hardwood flooring manufacturer in Grafton, N.S.W. We use blue plastic wrapon our packs. We produce secret nail T&G 60x19, 80x18, 130x19 T/Nail, 180x25 T/nail, 80x25, Overlay solid wood 80x12, Block parquetry 260x65x14, 260x65x19. All of this is produced from 15 different species in 3 different grades. We supply australia wide and internationally.

We have been drying and producing flooring for the last 50 years. I have been with the company for 27 years. All of this time I have been the Kiln operator/supervisor. I am now the production supervisor for the entire drying and dressing plant.

Rusty, if you need any more info, send a PM.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[Marc]

Trevor, are you saying that gluing tongue and groove hardwood on top of a particleboard floor is a good job? Are you saying such job will remain flat and not cup?

[glock40sw]

Trevor, are you saying that gluing tongue and groove hardwood on top of a particleboard floor is a good job? Are you saying such job will remain flat and not cup?
I am saying that to Glue and Secret nail to Y/tongue will be a good floor. It will remain flat as long as the subfloor is OK.

Remember...top nailing and glueing is NOT the correct fixing method.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor

[seriph1]

I would like to throw this in - different conditions invariably exist on both sides of a floor, be it yellow tongue, concrete, or air (B+J) so I guess flooring must be able to cope pretty well. However, I imagine excessively dry/hot/cold/ wet conditions (on either side) must effect a floor's performance. Have seen some stunning overlay floors and a few disasters - almost invariably the disasters have been caused by inappropriate practices, not faulty product.....though I have seen the effects of a "wet" messmate floor being laid here in Melbourne and within 3 weeks it had become a lovely deck. Pity it was in their lounge room. Apparently it was like a gun going off in there while the movement was taking place .... it all had to be ripped up and replaced.

[Rusty]

I have to plead ignorance on a lot of the construction aspects of flooring (I only store, pack and ship the stuff) but after picking the boss's brains I am sure that if using particle board, then both gluing and secretnailing (in cover sizes under 85mm) is the way to go.

However! No matter what type of sub floor you will be laying on, moisture control is the key to successful installation- I could not agree more that improper handling, not defective product is the greatest source of problems in a finished floor.

So if using only bearers and joists then install "a moisture barrier"- most of you will know more about that than me- if laying on concrete then ensure it has properly cured, as this can also transfer moisture into kd timber; and finally, when laying on yellow tongue, treat it with the same regard as you would for the solid floor.Provide adequate sub-floor ventilation. Do not expose it to the weather at any stage (check before purchase that it has been stored inside), sand and seal before laying your strip flooring. Remember of course that moisture can stuff particle board even when top sealed by sneaking in at the sides.

Apparently QLD OH&S rules state that a working platform must be provided on all sites which, combined with consistent summer weather has led to the widespread use of "platform" style building construction (or so I'm told).
Consequently, yellow tongue flooring is often exposed for some time before the roof goes on which makes it then unsuitable as a sub floor for T&G.
Some northern manufacturers specifically warn against T&G in a platform construction for that reason.

Down here the unpredictable weather means platform style is uncommon, therefore laying T&G on particleboard (or ply for that matter) is less of an issue, providing the above precautions are observed.

Forgive my long winded, lecturing tone; I guess it's a reflection of how all this has been conveyed to me!:D

I also freely admit I am no expert, like most of you that post here I just like to take some care and interest in what I do. Native hardwood is a precious resource both in financial and environmental terms, and I reckon it's worth banging on a bit about it if it helps avoid some of the pitfalls in it's use.

And I will not be at all offended if anyone wants to correct any errors I may have made. I'm here to learn.

Regards,

Rus.

[Marc]

Some of the reply, seem to imply that the way one fixes the timber board to the particle board, i.e. secret nail in stead of top nail, glue etc, is the key to keep the timber board flat as opposed to cupping up.
I am afraid I disagree.

There is no glue in the world, not even epoxy nor any amount of nails, be it secret, wispered, or on public display, or even screws, that will stop a 19mm thick board from cupping, if conditions and type of timber dictate it must. The particleboard will rip like toilet paper, the hold a nail or screw or glue has on particleboard is academic, the force that such board exercises will rip any nail screw and glue from a flimsy support like a yellow, red, blue, green, white, spotted, particleboard.

The fact that some floors do stay stable, have to do with extremely favourable subfloor condition, climate / location, type of timber and certainly not with the glue or the nails. By giving advice, one must consider worst-case scenario, not best, and worst case scenario is that the proposed boards on particleboard floor is a very poor choice.

However, please, do not mind me, since the above is only my opinion, and further above, that one is not my floor.

[jackiew]

just been past a building site on my morning walk. The site is fairly level and the subfloor space is very small ... they already put in the ducting etc cos there is NO WAY that they are going to be able to do that after its built. The floor as laid on the ground floor looks like exterior grade ply to me and currently is a swimming pool ... obviously isn't laid flat. There is a whole stack of flooring ( think it is yellow tongue ) just perched on top of of the ground floor framing of one of the homes, totally exposed to the weather, not even covered over. As it has been raining heavily over the last few days there is no way that flooring is going to be dry. Hopefully they wont be trying to put t&g on either the ground or first floors!!!

just as an aside they have put in the plumbing fixing the plastic pipework for cold water to the outside of the timber frame which they are in the process of concealing with brick veneer. This means that the T-joints are going to be totally inaccessible once the shell is built ... at what stage do they test the pipework for leaks ... it seems to me that if there is a dodgy joint then it is going to be completely hidden while it weeps into the totally inaccessible subfloor :eek:

[Marc]

Which points to the fact that some building practices dont necessarily mean they are good standard just because they are done that way. Only means one can get away with it...until the building insurance catches up with you if they ever do. By then, the builder is probably "broke" and operating under another name.

[glock40sw]

G'day All.
Let me put it this way.
If I get a call that one of my floors is having problems, I get on a plane and sort it out ASAP.
However, My production runs have samples of the T&G taken every 1/2 hour by the machinist. These samples are measured for all dimensions and the sizes, date, time, specie, M.C. and name of machinist are written on the piece. These samples are kept for up to 7 years. When a call comes in about a floor, If I can get the pack number from the site or from the supplier, I can check back to our production run for that day as well as the drying records that are kept all the way back to 1978. We have 6 monthly audits by TRADAC (Timber Research And Development Advisory Council) to verify that we are producing Top Grade T&G Flooring. When I do an inspection on site, The first thing I look for is dodgy installation and poor site conditions. I carry every piece of test equipment that I can. 3 Moisture meters, a concrete meter, a temp/humidity meter, digital vernier calipers, dentist mirror, tape, rule, straight edge, Leatherman tool and a digital camera.

The problem is 99.9% site related. If someone has a problem, I usually can suggest a fix. If the fault is mine, I replace the floor, no questions asked.

Marc...No matter how good the product, An old chippie with old thinking and old practices is Hardwood flooring's biggest enemy.

If you want a perfect floor installation, get a floor layer...NOT a builder.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[Marc]

Trevor from Grafton, I am sure you look after your product and most probably produce a fine product. That is certainly not the point.


Marc...No matter how good the product, An old chippie with old thinking and old practices is Hardwood flooring's biggest enemy.
I find it hard to find any logic in the above since "old chippies" have been laying hardwood floor before you and me where born and such floors are still there nice and flat, and none has a particleboard under them


If you want a perfect floor installation, get a floor layer...NOT a builder.
Even less logic in this, builders don't lay floors, they contract floor layers to do it.

I agree 100% that most problems are site related.

[theborg1]

Grinner,

I am in the process of renovating my Edwardian House.

I took up the pine floor boards and decided to go with a Hardwood floor board being Blackbutt.

It was suggested to me that I put down yellow tongue first. I made several calls, spoke to alot of people and everyone I spoke to thought it was a good idea. It was also suggested to me that I use an 80mm T&g board rather than the wide board I was originally going to put down because the widerboard is apparently more susceptible to warping.

I was lucky there was only one day where we had some rain so the yellow tongue was very dry when the floor was put down.

So far, so good.

What ever way you go, good luck with the project.

Theborg :)

[journeyman Mick]

G'day All.....
Marc...No matter how good the product, An old chippie with old thinking and old practices is Hardwood flooring's biggest enemy.

If you want a perfect floor installation, get a floor layer...NOT a builder.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

Trevor, had to revisit this post as it's been in the back of my mind since I read it. I would say I'm a middle aged chippie that is cautiously progressive in his thinking. I'm quick to embrace new tools and equipment if they will save time and make money. New materials and methods I'm cautious about. I've laid a few timber floors and they've either been:
1) face nailed on joists
2)secret nailed on joists
3)secret nailed over structafloor.
In all cases the flooring was removed from its plastic wrapping as soon as it came on site and stacked inside in the rooms it would be laid in. There was no wet trade work going on or damp concrete slabs underneath. I've never used a purpose made secret nail profile as no one stocks it here and because of the distances and delivery times involved special orders aren't really an option. When secret nailing I've always put a bead of polyurethane adhesive under the board on the joist line - either straight on the joists or on the structafloor.

Questions:
Am I doing anything wrong?
Is there a better way?
What "new fashioned" methods would a floor layer use that an "old fashioned" chippie like me wouldn't?

All the "floor layers" I have met have been "jack of all trade" types who do vinyl, carpet and tiles. Unless there is a specific trade training for layers of timber floors I can't see that they will know enough about timber to understand the potential problems.

What specific methods/materials/practices would you recommend in an area where the humidity can fluctuate from almost 0% to almost 100% and where the temperature fluctuations mean open houses in the hot, wet times and everything closed up and the fireplace stoked in the drier winter time.

I haven't changed my work methods because:
They're what I learnt,
I haven't been told otherwise
They're the same as what everyone else seems to be doing (accepted current industry practice)
I haven't ever had any problems.

If accepted current industry practice isn't best practice then I'm open to input.

Mick (old dog ready for new tricks)

[glock40sw]

G'day Mick.
Thanks for the questions.

As far as I can see from your post, You are doing great. North QLD is a nightmare for Hwd T&G produced in the southern states. As you said RH from 0 to 100%. Most of the problem floors that I have inspected have been installed by Builders (Jack of all Trades). A specialist floor installer will follow the same practices that you do. Your installation is exactly how I would do it. There is a Timber Flooring & Finishing Association of Queensland. It has been running for a number of years. the association consists of producers, installers, finishers, fixing equipment suppliers, finish manufacturers, timber wholsalers, Etc etc etc etc.

The timber used to produce T&G flooring has changed. there is no more "Old growth" logs. It is all regrowth and plantation wood that is being milled into T&G. Thus the wood properties are different. The timber now has more movement associated with moisture uptake or loss. Even the age old practice of leaving the T&G for a few weeks to climatise is not being used. The T&G is layed directly from the pack. Also overlay T&G 12mm is now more common for Direct stick applications to concrete.

I didn't say ALL old chippies do the wrong thing. I am saying that a specialist Floor layer who only lays floors will usually have more up to date installation knowledge, skills and practices.

Of the tens of thousands of L/M of T&G that we produce every year, very few people have problems with it, no matter how it is installed. This is partly due to listening to installers, going onsite while the floors are being layed and varying the production practices to suit.

As to supplying a floor for an area with RH from 0 to 100%....I would not do it. You would probably find that T&G producers in N/QLD would air dry to about 18 to 21% and install at that M.C.

I know that TRADAC have been monitoring houses in Cairns with data loggers to try and improve the stability of timber supplied from the southern producers.

If you want to contact the TFFAQ, you could contact Robert Clague at Northern Suburbs Timber Flooring at Brendale in Brisbane. Sorry, I don't know his number off the top of my head.

There is also a new National Wood Flooring Association of Australia started up. it is still in it's early days, but it should be worth getting behind. The same sort of Association in the US is huge.

Please accept my apologies if I have stepped on any old Chippies toes.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[journeyman Mick]

No problems Trevor, I'm wearing steel cap boots anyway! :) I don't know of any body specialising in laying timber floors up here adn I've got a feeling that the QBSA would require them to be licensed as carpenters or builders anyway. Keeping up to date with new practices and products can be a bit difficult especially if you do most of your ordering over the phone and work on smaller jobs where you never see reps. Not that i can remember ever getting any useful information directly from a rep, they might have faxed something through if I hassled them but that's about it. The QBSA is going to start a professional development type scheme. Basically license holders will have to get so many points over a three year period in order to keep their license. Points are awarded for being a member of a trade organisation, having an apprentice and going to seminars. This is good for prospective apprentices and the trade organisations who will get more members and run seminars but I wonder how much people will really pick up. I went to a health and safety training course a year or so ago and learnt that "training" is where the cream is. 3 staff members in a function room at one of the clubs. They would have gotten a really good rate on the room hire, I'm sure as it was held on a friday afternoon. I reckon they'd almost pay you to use their venue because you'd be bringing about 300 tradesmen into the club on a friday arvo. There was a bar opened just outside the function rooms and there was a stream of blokes back and forth during the course. 1 guy presented the training (videos) and two took your money at the door. You filled out your details and signed a roll when you entered and were presented witha blank card and a self adhesive "laminating" pouch when it was over. They would have grossed about $10K for the two hours. What I learnt at the course? Safety is everyone's responsibility-well duuh! I didn't know that.

Mick

[glock40sw]

G'day Mick.
You're right. Some of the so called training is a real waste of time.
As to licenses. I think that the TFFAQ has some kind of deal going with the TAFE on floor laying...I'm not 100% sure. At the end the layer will receive a card like a "GOLD CARD" but specially for timber floor installation.
Contact the TFFAQ. Robert knows more about it than I do.
Have you used Johnson River Hwd?
I've heard that it is harder than Grey Ironbark.
Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[Scooterscum]

:D :D :D Hey Mick, that sounds like the same safety seminar I went to :D :D :D
Obviously you got the same amount of satisfaction out of it as I did!!
Regards
Simon

[journeyman Mick]

Trevor,
used JRH once, years ago. Some 2nd hand boards on a mates extension, pretty damn hard and I didn.t have air tools back then (what was I thinking?). It was a very popular flooring timber, beautiful colour and grain and very hard wearing. Black Penda is even harder, you are flat out driving a nail into a hole drilled only slightly undersize but I don't think they ever made flooring out of it.

Simon,
yeah, I wouldn't mind sitting through a 2hr or whatever seminar if I was actually going to learn something from it but it was just a rubber stamping execise. And of course we'll both have to go and do it again every 2? years from now on. (Note to self, find site safety card and check renewal date).