The Water Is No Longer Fine

[Sturdee]

When the User Reputation points system came in it was meant to be a bit of fun and a way for you to show your approval or disapproval of member’s posts.


Whilst I have no problems with this feature, and it can be a very useful adjunct to posting, I do have a fundamental issue with the anonymity of those members casting their disapproval.


In a previous post ( http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=59627#post59627 ) I voiced my opinion on these anonymous posters and accused them of being DISAPPROVAL REPUTATION NAZIS who in casting their disapproval remain faceless and don’t have to give any reasons.


I believe that if anyone disagrees with my posts then they should tell me and I would either withdraw or apologize for my remarks if my post offended them or debate the issues raised. This is my way of doing things and is the same as most posters on this board.


However there is the small anonymous group of DISAPPROVAL REPUTATION NAZIS who, whilst still crawling around in the gutter, now have a way of criticizing members posts.


Since I raised my concern I have been given a red point (don’t know how they can give red points and must be worse than the blue ones) by an anonymous DISAPPROVAL REPUTATION NAZI.


Whilst I have no worries with anyone criticizing me I object VERY STRONGLY to the current way of doing it without me being able to know my accuser. So strongly do I feel about it that at this stage I have no longer the desire to post to the board. Now I may be wrong in taking a stand, but if so, than it is only the third time I made a mistake on a matter of principles.


Thus to quote Al “ Come on in the water is fine” statement, I now no longer find the water fine so I am going to sit on the edge of the pool and only look in (like the majority of members on this board) and cease posting until the gutless DRN’s can no longer remain anonymous.


As a lurker I will still read the posts, both the informative and funny ones, (just keep me laughing guys) and will come back into the water if it changes.


Peter (a former jigbuilder)

[craigb]

Peter,

While I can understand you being PO'd about anonymous negative rep points,
(and from all the posts of yours I've seen, I haven't seen one that deserved a negative), have you raised this problem with ?

I'm sure that if he thinks you've got a legimate grievance he'll try and do something about it. I know nothing about the vBulletin software that runs this board and maybe it's not possible to include the user's name who made the negative post.

I do agree with you though, that if somebody believes that a post deserves a negative then they should have the courage to identify themselves and provide a reason.

I hope you reconsider your decision to lurk.

Craig

[ozwinner]

Peter if you reconsider I will ( if I could , maybe I need to contact Mr ) give you ALL my rep points. Honest. :)

Al :)

[GeoffS]

Come on Sturdee - your posts are an important part of this forum. Don't take your bat and ball and go home - just peering over the fence isn't good enough - in this medium we can't see you!!
Personally I am not keen on the rep point system. If someone posts a truly offensive or maybe just a 'bad advise' post can be advised and he will do the right thing.
Take note of the current thread that refers to overseas woodworking forums and how boring they are. It is people like you that make this one so good. Good advice with a bit of cheekiness added.
Please stick around and ignore the idiots - scrub that - the humour impaired.

[Wood Borer]

Sturdee,

Why bow to the gutless wonders? Whilst you and I enjoy different aspects of woodwork, sometimes our views cross paths but at least we both openly discuss it.

Remember when we almost had a dovetail competion, Ozwinner and Kenmil were going to be referees! Out of a difference of views, something positive came out of it.

Some people will write a response to you saying if you can't stand the heat ... etc but they will be stirring and mouthing off, just like we all do from time to time. I agree with them if someone is too sensitive but when it hits the bone I think we should listen.

I haven't any problems with the reputation points, it is good to get them but I will continue to express my opinion even if it risks losing points. Honesty and principles are more important to me than reputation points.

- Wood Borer

[bitingmidge]

Shirley, you can't be serious!! :eek: It's one thing to give up posting, it's altogetherly another to give up building jigs. You might have to start some real projects soon! And what is to become of the half finished-finishing shed, is it finished? Had it's chips? Gone, to become a potting shed for Mrs Sturdees Geraniums?

See the great thing about talking to a lurker is that they can't talk back, and I can say anything without fear of retribution!!! :D :D (Unless of course they joined the ranks of the DNR :eek: 's - which in the case of Sturdee I think is improbable.)

I think (now there's a first!), we should all take a deep breath...go back and readSilentC's Sage Advice (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=60130&postcount=1) (Bloody Hell I can't believe I'm taking advice from a Chook!!), then read WoodBorer again (hear hear to both of 'em!):
I haven't any problems with the reputation points, it is good to get them but I will continue to express my opinion even if it risks losing points. Honesty and principles are more important to me than reputation points.


Then carry on regardless.

I particularly like carrying on!! Up 'em for the rent!!
:D :D

P

[Wayne Davy]

Sturdee,

Do let em get to you mate!!! I have got some negatives for, what I thought, were very informative posts that lots of other appreciated. :( I don't understand either.

At first, I was a bit put out by them and then I said to myself
"Self, f%^k um!!"

Now, I don't care about the negatives. If I am sure that the post was good - thats all that matters.

So, STOP LURKING and COME BACK POSTING (it's a bit creepy knowing you are here but not here - now I'm getting confused. :eek: )

[AlexS]

Was going to leave this one alone, as I think the rep points is all a bit of fun, but I'm wondering if there may be some sort of software glitch. Someone gave me a positive comment (thanks) with a blueberry next to it.

Whatever, Jigman, don't lurk, your input is much too valuable.

(Hmmm, why would I give a nickname to someone I only know by another nickname?)

[Shane Watson]

Argh bugger em sturdee, lifes too short mate if your going to let this get you down.
If it upsets ya that much I'll throw ya all of ozwinner's rep points! :D :D :D ;) ;) ;)

Oh, and I can do it too! ;)

Mwahahahaha!

Cheers.

PS & I know your reading this now...hehehe...

[Bob Willson]

No no, the points.The points. Without my reputation points I am nothing. I am less than nothing. I am a minus nothing.

Hold on a minute. 120000000000000 minus nothing eauals 120000000000000000.

Stop!!!

I am something. I am a total of ................... something. Am I worth something :) or ................ nothing :( ?

[gatiep]

Sturdee,
When Neil announced this points thing I realised that he had good intentions but my first reaction was: " How long before someone will stuff it up by abusing the aninomity"
I thought about it and decided that I would treat it as a fun thing to which some people will subscribe, personally I couldn't be bothered and I take no notice of it. There are people who go out of their way to upset the harmony on this board. If you go through with your decision you are playing right in their hands.............ignore them!
My personal view is: "If someone hasn't got the guts to take me on should they not like or agree with my post....then I really don't give a rat's *rse about what they think" Like you I post what I believe to be the truth, my personal opinion, personal experience or what I am sure is fact. Therefore, if a person comes forward and proves me wrong, I'll be quite happy to appologise and retract my statement, but if the negative is done anonymously I just treat it with the contempt it deserves.
I sincerely hope that what Neil has meant as a good fun thing is not going to blow out again like some other issues we've seen on this board.
Perhaps the following does not only apply to children but also to some posters on this board:
"Play nicely!"

Regards
Joe

[RETIRED]

Ok Folks, We had a funny feeling that this could happen.

We have no way ( as far as I can see) of making people that give or take reputation visible if they wish to remain anonymous.

I have a question for all of you: Do you want them suspended until Neil gets home on Tues or Wed next week?

That is all I can do for the present.

If you feel uncomfortable doing it here, PM me.

[Sir Stinkalot]

Keep them going .... turn them off ... who cares.

If you are really that put off by the reputation thing don't bother to check your rating in your user cp. It seems with the arrival of winter everybody feels the need to have a little gripe about something. It is getting to a stage that not a day goes by without somebody having a problem with one thing or another. If the biggest problem with your day is getting a blue square, lucky you. There is no reason that people give off a blue, I don't think it really is because somebody has picked up a major problem with a post, if there is something that a person feels so strongly about they are still going to report a post to a moderator rather than relying on the blue square.

I am not having a go at Sturdee directly with this post, its more of an outsiders view of what has been happening on the boards for the past few weeks.

[cliff cook]

G`day guys
I must admit that i don`t know what your talking about but i look at it this way, i joined this board to learn and mabee have my say as well. If someone disagrees with me and wishes to say so then fair enough ,if they don`t and want to do the thing with the dots then it is a case of mind over matter.
I don`t mind
And they don`t matter. :D

[journeyman Mick]

This issue doesn't worry me on a personal level, however it may be to the detriment of new or casual users of this BB. I look at it this way: regular users of this BB will have sussed out what to expect of the more prolific posters, who's a stirrer, who's a joker, who's a sage. I think that most posters are a varying combinations of these (and the level of each of these qualities varies depending on the post as well). So regular BB users will tend to know that while x will crack a lot of jokes he offers good advice and that while y might be somewhat controversial in how he answers questions he is being genuine, just coming from a different perspective, etc etc. My worry is that people appear to have been given bad rep points for no reason and that a new user might disregard perfectly good advice given by a knowledgeable BB member because of an undeserved bad rep.

Mick

[Pete J]

My view - who gives a rats!


HOWEVER! There is no defined scheme, no rationale, no understood basis for giving negative, or for that matter, positive points. I haven't yet heard people saying they have unfairly been given positive points. Why would one take this seriously??

Yet it is easy to understand why most people don't like being criticised unfairly ( as we see it) and especially without knowing who is criticising us and why.

If it creates unnecessary consternation we have to ask: what is the reason for continuing it? None that I can see - especially if people are taking it seriously.

- your funny feeling was felt by many of us. The system, without doubt implemented as a fun addition, is not working out to be fun in practice.

Why not run a poll on its life or death!!

Stinky - you old pollologist - where are you??

Regards from Perth where at last it is raining. Yea!

[Zed]

I regret to announce to the bb my insertion of negative lovin' to sturdee for posting a "last post".

note all my lovin' givin' is signed by my moniker - zed... no anoninimity for this little alphic character...

I think we all share the opinion that one as valuable as sturdee (700+ posts - most really good ones...) the lack of future contributions will be a sad loss - not to mention the creation of a psuedo-sturdee ala doorstop / christopha - how hard will it be to remember what you said as sturdee or psuedo sturdee and not get caught out mate ? or if you are true to your word and lurk forever more" how hard will it be to not comment on something you TRUELY KNOW IS RIGHT ? or save some some poor bastard from f*cking up by the typing of 3 sentances. I Hereby predict that KENMIL & STURDEE SHALL RETURN.....

all hail the thick skinned.

on a more important note - i've cracked the 200 point mark , I thank you all for your lovin.

seriously - the points mean jack - i use 'em just to stir the regular guys for a bit of fun... the newbies get left alone until they show their true colours. perhaps the ones who are beyond repute can establish some guidelines inthe rules and sign up page - it would be a shame if the board degenerates due to misuse or the function is removed.

cheers

[bitingmidge]

My worry is that people appear to have been given bad rep points for no reason and that a new user might disregard perfectly good advice given by a knowledgeable BB member because of an undeserved bad rep.


I don't think this is the case entirely....I have searched for instructions as a new member might and can find no instructions, or explanation of what the little green things mean. From that I deduce that it will take a new member a while to understand, by which time he will know that it's a bit of fun (except when bluey's are handed out indiscriminently) and by then he/she will be sucked in to the BB lifestyle. (No life...no style!)

I have noticed a couple of newbies with blue dots, and I just don't think that's cricket chaps.....firing 'em at Oz or me is mostly fair game :( , but a first timer or new guy, even if he is a blithering idiot, doesn't deserve a gutless canning.....tell 'em on the board and let others defend them.

Currently there are 3,595 members, and 35 who have more than one point. (Speaking as a serial poster of complete dribble, I can assure all that not all of the points received have been for words of wisdom! :D :D :D :D ) but if Mick's statement were to hold true, the words of 99% of the members would be discarded.

I really think all this will wash out in the next month or two...In fact as I understand the rules, all who are members now will have maxed out their points in a year (one per month) and there will be 3,595 at the same level as the lying cheating thieving moderators who kicked off at that level, and Communism will have prevailed...all men will once again be equal.

Adopt the chook's rules, don't give bluey's without a reason, have a nice day :).

The board seemed quite successful without them, I think they'll be more obviously irrelevant with the passage of time, and I think everyone should give Zed an anonymous blue right now ..."to stir him for a bit of fun" :D :D :D

Ooooohhh my head hurts from being serious for too long.

P

[Alix]

Hi, I am have just received a "blue" dot and when I looked in the User CP section it has a listing with a message inferring it is a "pay back" from someone. I do not yet have 50 posts up and so cannot vote yet I am being accused of giving someone a bad rep. What is going on here? How can this person think it was me that gave them the bad rep when I have not even (can't) voted once yet?

Allan

[ozwinner]

I have noticed a couple of newbies with blue dots, and I just don't think that's cricket chaps.....firing 'em at Oz or me is mostly fair game


I hereby bequeth all my neg point to Midge.

Signed Al http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/blackeye/lol.gif

[ozwinner]

Hi, I am have just received a "blue" dot and when I looked in the User CP section it has a listing with a message inferring it is a "pay back" from someone. I do not yet have 50 posts up and so cannot vote yet I am being accused of giving someone a bad rep. What is going on here? How can this person think it was me that gave them the bad rep when I have not even (can't) voted once yet?

Allan
Yeaaaaah in the green again with some ammo.

Cheers, Allan............. Ooowwhh spelleded the same.

[Sturdee]

I am heartened by the response my post has received but wish to clarify some aspects of my post.

At the outset let me restate that I am not against this innovation. It can be fun and can be a useful adjunct to posting. I have used them myself for dashing of a quick note rather than a full post.

I am also not fishing for points, but of course appreciate it if I get feedback on any of my posts.

I am also not opposed to criticism of my posts, in fact if I either upset someone or gave the wrong advice I appreciate it if I am told, so that it can be dealt with. I am sure that regular members know that. I have on a number of occasions publicly apologized for my remarks if they unwittingly upset another member. I have also debated issues and clarified my position as Woodborer attested to. Thus I am not upset at Zed’s comments (and his raspberry for it was a red one) because he did not say his piece anonymously.

There are many divergent views represented on this board. Mine does not always agree others but I respect them and read their posts anyway. I always like to compare it with that we all share the same faith of woodworking, but are members of either the church of hand tools, or the power tool church, or the Triton congregation or say the dust collection assembly etc. (Now that will get the DRN’s out of the woodwork :D )

But now there has arisen a new sect, the anonymous group of critics, the DRNs who are too gutless to stand up and face those whom they criticize.

Now you all say ignore them, don’t let them get you, don’t care about the negatives, carry on regardless, don’t bow to the gutless wonders, don’t lurk and that I am playing into their hands.

Now whilst I would like to do that, and I agonised over my post for quite a while, I feel that doing nothing was not on. I am an inquisitive person and not looking at the points score etc is not in my nature. Maybe that is why I can see the possibility of making a jig where others don’t.

Now if I was melodramatic I would compare this new sect of anonymous DRNs with the catholic inquisition of old or the star chambers of old England or the grand juries in the USA or a kangaroo court were you are accused, tried and convicted without your knowledge.

I feel if we do nothing and ignore them they have already won and by taking this stand I am opposing them. I note that (apart from Zed’s raspberry) an anonymous DRN, within the hour of my post, gave me a bluey because I drew attention to their anonymity.


, I feel that it would be presumptuous of me to tell how you should operate the board. I am much too appreciative of both Ubeaut and the moderators for this wonderful facility. If you feel that the points system is abused than you should do what you think is best for the board and in making your decision the other points raised in this discussion also make much sense.

I have not done a Doorstop (and come back under a different handle) or a Kenmill (objecting to your moderating duties) but I have voluntary retired, hopefully for the time being, to the sidelines. I am not making any demands nor quietly fade into the background like others. The only thing that I have done is to make known that I will not post anymore whilst the situation remains where I can not know my critics.


Peter.

P.s. That the language of this post is temperate is in respect to you , because if I wrote the way I feel about this issue you would have to heavily censor my post. You see I can swear fluently not only in English but also in Dutch and German. :)

P.p.s. I also apologize for the length of this post but after all it may be my epitaph.

[Alix]

Ozwinner, thank you for restoring my faith in this board and for the point to get me back in the green.

I think that if someone is going to give a negative point to someone then the receiver should at least be able to identify who it was and perhaps discuss the reasons with them. I don't like the anonimity part.

Allan

[Shane Watson]

Hi, I am have just received a "blue" dot and when I looked in the User CP section it has a listing with a message inferring it is a "pay back" from someone. I do not yet have 50 posts up and so cannot vote yet I am being accused of giving someone a bad rep. What is going on here? How can this person think it was me that gave them the bad rep when I have not even (can't) voted once yet?

Allan


Alix,

Quite simply, you have given a rep point. How you did is beyond me as I have checked all settings and your right, you need to have made 50 posts before being able to give rep points. But unless there are two posters named 'Alix' it was you. Oh and there isn't two of you ;)

Grain of salt people, ;)

gee I have had no good luv'in yet only bad... :confused:

[ozwinner]

Owwhhhh, here ya go Shane. One good'n.


I didnt think the moderators wanted to play, seeing as how their rep points are fulled up by cheating. :D

Al :)

[Alix]

OK, having written software for over 35 years I can believe that no software is perfect.

If I did give a bad point to someone I don't know to who it was, how I did it or when. If the person who got the bad point from me would like to identify themselves I will apologize.

As a mattter of interest, if the giving of points is anonymous then how did this person get the idea that it was me that gave them the bad point? Very curious.

Allan

[ozwinner]

This is where Sturdee is on the money. :)

I could give negs to anyone, and sign off with anyones name. :D
How would you know if the signee is genuine? :mad:

Al

[Caliban]

Peter
I hope to hell you don't think it was me who gave you the blue. :eek:
Even though you pulled me into line when I needed it, I only respect you for it.
I always put my name to everything I do. That's how you get a rep.
Not by being a gutless ****.(Sorry ). I also only give positive points.
Probably the catholic guilt coming out. You know, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone...", therefore I never, ever cast stones, even if it is funny.
Do not leave. There are too few people whose posts are as good as yours. Most of us simply use these posts for "woffoling" :D I forget who coined that neologism, but I like it even if it would have annoyed my previous persona as a spelling Nazi. Because of you I have reinvented myself and I would not have believed how much I enjoy the freedom of not giving a stuff about how someone murders this beautiful language.
You are an essential part of this BB, it would be like Rocker leaving a jig convention, or a cyclone forum without Wayne, or (if I may be so bold) a smart **** forum without me. This is the beginning of the end. No kenmill and no doorstop was bad enough, but no Sturdee and the BB will be horrible.
We should get rid of these rep points, not valuable members.
Tell them all to go to the farthest queue. Say it really loud and very quickly
FAR QUEUE

[ozwinner]

Here is another example of brownie points going astray. :(

I had years of good tradeing on Ebay, it only took one mongrel who tryed to rip me off, to get me banned, all because I complained.
http://cgi2.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=ozwinner :mad:



Al :)

[Bob Willson]

Good idea Al. :D Prepare to be blasted by hovo, Alix, Shane Sturdee and quite a few others. All anonymously of course.Or is it really me in my SUPER BLASTER uniform.?

[Rocker]

I have to say that I feel the rep points system has a major potential for causing dummies to be spat, and no particular advantages. I have given one or two rep points, good and bad, but my heart was not in it, and I am not going to participate further in giving rep points. Surely we are here to volunteer information about woodworking, or to ask for it, not to build up or tear down other people's reputations. If someone posts misleading or false information, that information should be corrected, or at least debated, rather than the person being antagonised by having a raspberry blown at him/her.

The recent trend of flouncing out in high dudgeon seems to me a little self-indulgent, since most of the flouncers are well aware that they have made valuable contributions in the past, and that they are going to receive a chorus of entreaties not to depart. If people are sufficiently p***ed off to want out, why not just leave silently? But I think it would be better to stay and try to sort out whatever is bugging them.

Rocker

[Driver]

Well said, Rocker.

Col

[Sir Stinkalot]

Stinky - you old pollologist - where are you??


Sorry my good friend ... I was off on family duties today. It looks as if I have been beaten to the poll .... should I post a poll as to wether I should have been monitoring the board all day for poll opportunities or doing the family thing?

:D

Stinky.

[Shane Watson]

Ok, so 's right we need a decission soooooo I posted a poll on the matter......

This is a serious poll so let us know what YOU want!

Cheers!

[Dan]

After reading Rockers latest post in this thread I had a thought. If you want to build a good reputation then post useful information, encourage someone if you think they need it, have a bit of a joke every now and then and if you are going to contradict someone then try to do it gently. Basically that is how the board worked before (most of the time) and once you follow a few threads you can soon work out reputations without the help of green squares. Like I said at the start, just a thought (maybe more than one). :)

[fxst]

My take is to grow thicker skin if its a worry
for christsake we are adults (I would hope) and shouldnt let such small matters concern us they are there use em or not but dont start the dummy spit :mad:
stay or go guys but quietly please ....voids fill eventually
Pete
(who couldnt care less if he got points or not of any type)

[DarrylF]

My take is to grow thicker skin if its a worry
for christsake we are adults (I would hope) and shouldnt let such small matters concern us they are there use em or not but dont start the dummy spit :mad:
stay or go guys but quietly please ....voids fill eventually
Pete
Well said mate.

Maybe I'm just thicker skinned than some, but personally I don't give a bugger if some anonymous person doesn't like what I post. I've been around here, off an on as whim & life & work pressures dictate, for a couple years now. I have a lot of respect for the opinions & abilities of a lot of the people here, which is why I keep coming back. If those I respect stand up and tell me I'm wrong/out of line whatever, I respect that. If those I don't know want to snipe on the sidelines, who cares? It affects me not at all.

[Iain]

Oh to be a moderator and have a full bar. :D

[Iain]

Sorry , it should have read nepotic but my fingers slipped :o

[RETIRED]

:d

[Cliff Rogers]

OK, having written software for over 35 years I can believe that no software is perfect.


You mean like this.....

8 Minutes Ago
name deleted
Apprentice (new member)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1

& already he had 3 green blocks which is over 200 points!!!!

How does that work?

[Alix]

Wow, I look forward to the explanation for that!! :-)

No, maybe I had better keep out of this, I don't want to attract any more bad vibes.

Allan

[bitingmidge]

& already he had 3 green blocks which is over 200 points!!!!


Hey Cliff!

Look again!!

There are three members joined in the last 2 hours with NO posts and have 3 green dots....

I think they are apprentice moderators. :D :D :D

OR TRIFFIDS!!!! :eek:

the sky is falling............... :cool:

P

[RETIRED]

It was my mistake. Have been playing trying to get a fairer system.

I could not understand how someone could remains anonymous because in my reputation points it comes out who posted them. Apparently this is not the case in the rank and file.

So for the time being the rep points have been disabled pending a better look by Neil and myself.

[Cliff Rogers]

So for the time being the rep points have been disabled pending a better look by Neil and myself.

Beauty, now I can tell my story about the cats & the lawnmower without getting any more blueys...

[Sturdee]

Thank you , for switching of the rep points and if I can help in assisting in finding a solution please let me know.

Although I agonized a long while over my post, and I don’t regret what I said, with the benefit of hindsight I now realise that I was wrong in going about it the way I did. I should have waited until Neil was back on deck and I should have contacted the administrators first by way of a private message before posting.

I caused unnecessary grief to both the administrators and the members of this board for having failed to do so. I sincerely apologize to all and would urge any member if they face a similar situation not to do what I did but discuss it first with the administrators. , I particularly would like to thank you for your forbearance, your task is not easy and I made it unnecessarily more difficult.

I was heartened and surprised by the messages of support I received, I am sure that this was not necessarily for me personally but more in support of the issue. I don’t want to single anyone out however I will mention Woodborer’s support. This was even more unexpected in so far as we have had robust discussion in the past. Whilst we belong to different groups within this board we both respect each other’s point of view. The fact that this issue did not degenerate in a slinging match is a measure of maturity that I greatly appreciate.

Nevertheless the phrase “ Flouncing out of high dudgeoon” did hurt. Whilst it may have been true of kenmil it was not the case of Ozwinner and the spelling issue. In fact he helped to improve the board and as such he should not be castigated but congratulated. I personally also refute this but acknowledge that Rocker, instead of throwing anonymous raspberries or blueys, spoke up and said what he believed which was the very issue I was fighting for.

Now end of speech, let’s do what said and get back to woodworking.


Peter.


P.s. you might wish to close this thread.

[ozwinner]

Hi Peter good to see you back, as for the humble pie, maybe we should get together some time and trade pie, I also have some unfinished hat you may be interested in shareing with me. :D


Cheers, Allan :)

[Sturdee]

....maybe we should get together some time and trade pie,


Must do that one day, I also want to see the drum sander in action. :cool: BTW I agree with you that there must be something in our water that makes us irrational. :D

Peter.