What goes on first sealer or stain?

[Alix]

Hi,

I am somewhat confused re what goes on raw timber first. Do you apply the stain then the sanding sealer or vice versa? I have read Neil's book and looked in this forum and admittedly I am not as bright as I used to be but I cannot seem to get straight what goes on first. Can someone please advise.

Also, am I correct that you should use a water based stain rather than a meths based stain under shellac?

Thanks,
Allan

[sailingamerican]

The stain goes on first
You can put stan on after the fact to blend
You can spray the stain in with the sanding sealer or finish. Just make sure you spray several top coats to cover the stain or it will rub off.
There are hundreds of ways to finish. Nice pieces should be hand rubbed with oils. There are hundreds of oils and ways to finish wood. There are many books on the subject. Do not mix water based stains and finishes with oil. Water base anything is hard to work with. I would never use it. You need a spray booth and heaters to make it work properly. If you have any questions drop me the question to [email protected] I will get back to you when I get in.
Good luck Richard

[Shane Watson]

There is no hard and fast rule about this at all. It all depends on what your trying to achieve. Usually yes the stain does go down first, but it dosn't have to and no you don't need to be spraying if you don't put the stain down first.
Waterbased stains are EASY to use and do not require spraybooths or heaters. But your everyday type of stain available at DIY retailers is also fine.

[bitingmidge]

Water base anything is hard to work with

Richard,

Next time you are in Oz, load up with a heap of U-Beaut product including water based stains and go home and have a play.

You'll be amazed at what has happened on this side of the world!! You may even find that you can sell your spray booth! :D

No finish is all things to all people and all have their place, but waterbased products have changed a lot over the last 30 years they just aren't that hard to use any more.

Cheers,

P

[Alix]

Thanks for clearing that up, much appreciated

Allan

[Bob Willson]

Waterbased stains are EASY to use I asked Neil about water based stains at the wood show in Brisbane and he told me that they were hard to use and that they were really only for staining small items such as bowls that were being turned etc. He strongly advised me to use the standard Wattly or similar stains as otherwise I would have difficulty obtaining the sort of even finish that I wanted.

[Shane Watson]

But did Neil indicate that you had to use heaters and spraybooths, as you only qouted part of what I had written.
My comments regarding the application of waterbased stain were in relation to 'Sailingamerican' commenting that waterbased anything was hard to apply having to use heaters and spraybooths. This is not so and therfor the application is far easier than he has indicated.

The original post was not questioning application benifits from waterbased to NGR stains or infact on the size of the project 'Alix' was reffering to (if there currently is one because he didn't mention any) but if you insist, what Neil has indicated is entirely true for a DIY or ametuer.



I asked Neil about water based stains at the wood show in Brisbane and he told me that they were hard to use and that they were really only for staining small items such as bowls that were being turned etc. He strongly advised me to use the standard Wattly or similar stains as otherwise I would have difficulty obtaining the sort of even finish that I wanted.

[bitingmidge]

I asked Neil about water based stains at the wood show in Brisbane and he told me that they were hard to use and that they were really only for staining small items such as bowls that were being turned etc

I'm hoping here that I haven't misled someone...I'm a bit confused!! :confused: :confused:

I have been rustling around without success trying to find the stain that I used three years ago to rejuvenate an old hardwood outdoor setting. It came in a plastic packet, I mixed the powder with water (it was coloured "dark mahogany", and it just slopped on with a brush and the residue wiped off with a rag, because it was water based it took a while to dry and gave a bit of working time. I bought it in an old-fashioned hardware store in the burbs in Bris, but for the life of me can't remember any other details.

Was I just lucky because I chose an agricultural job, and a very dark stain?

Do I owe SailingAmerican an apology? :eek: Looks like it! :D

Cheers,

P

[Bob Willson]

But did Neil indicate that you had to use heaters and spraybooths, as you only qouted part of what I had written. No Shane, at no time did Neil indicate that any extra equipment was required if I was wanting to use water based stains. He did however posit the theory that I may need to become somewhat more experienced in the processes involved in finishing if I wanted to use water based stains, as my present level of expertise may have been somewhat lacking. Of course, he put it all a little more diplomatically than that. :D

[Alix]

Well you now have me worried. I thought that it was all solved and I could use water based stains but now I am not sure if I want to try with the seemingly conflicting views on how difficult it is to use. I will have to try it on some spare timber and see what happens.

By the way no-one seems to have answered my second question: should you use a water based stain rather than a meths based stain under shellac?

Allan

[Bob Willson]

Sorry Alix. there is no answer to your second question. If you don't already know the answer then don't ask the question. :cool:

[Pete J]

Yep.

I identify with the first post: not militarily in this respect you understand. I read Neils' book (yes - but did you understand it, I hear you mutter scornfully). I read (thats 'red' not 'reed') product material - went to a couple of demonstrations of finishing and then jumped in and had a shot myself on test material because the advice was contradictory - at least to my way of thinking. I have used sanding sealer (non-filling) ie without the powder in suspension, under stain and it has worked just fine. It evened out the stain uptake by the timber and didn't affect the final finish coatings. I liked Shane's view that there is no hard and fast rule - that means that I am entitled to make my own mistakes and learn from them.

I have only two hard and fast rules: one is that a test is essential if one is ignorant of the likely results, and the other is that there is no hard and fast rule.


Regards

[SteveI]

Alix

I've found where you are using timber that takes up the stain at different rates, some sanding sealers are useful under the stain.

There are some sealers that recommend they only go over the stain and others can do either.

The owners of the forum have one that can go under - link below.
http://www.ubeaut.com.au/sandseal.htm

I have found where you are staining end grain, the sealer being put on first gets a more even finish with the rest of the timber.

Not being the world's most proficient sander, I also found if I stain first, then put sealer on I can get a little too enthusiastic with the sanding and take off some of the stain, leaving a patchy finish

[soundman]

I've been dong some reading, asking and experimenting on this matter in the last little while & it can get interesting.

It depends on what sealer, what stain & what top coats you are using.

shelac is different to any other finish so has a different set of rules

you may be able to stain after shelac (as a sealer) but other finishes it may not recommended to stain between coats as adhesion / delamination problems can occur with the finish.

it is a complicated question.

on spirit based stains with shelac
you may be confusing what various stains are carried in turps bassed stains are most common in hardware land, & thinners bassed stains are common in industry.

[Alix]

Guys,

The question was prompted because both the stain and sealer (thinned shellac) I use are meths based and I was concerned that the sealer may interfere with the stain (melt it?) if the stain was put on first.

I will now ensure that I always use Ubeaut sealer so I don't have the problem.

Thanks for your help.

Allan

[soundman]

You will probably have problems in this case because both the stain & the sealer & the top coat (if you are using shelac) are based on the same solvent and all of the products cure by drying out rathers than polermerising.

[Neil]

Look out I'm back. Firstly it is always best to use a stain that has a solvent that is incompatible with the finish.
ie: Use water or turpentine based stain with alcohol based finish. Alcohol or turps based stain with water based finish and water or alcohol with a turps or oil based finish, although the latter isn't quite as critical as the others because bleeding of the stain isn't anywhere as noticeable.

Secondly. I was talking about water based DYE not stain. Water based stain although not readily available here is reasonably easy to use, where water based DYE requires a little more expertise or practice and is much harder to come by, even though we supply it, we only do so in small quantities with the idea of it being used under shellawax for lathe work not for large pieces of furniture.

Finally the sanding sealer I say water dye can be used over is OUR sanding sealer which is based on dewaxed shellac and will allow for full penetration of even water dye into the timber. Do not try this over any other commercial sanding sealer as most all are designed as a grain filler and will not allow the stain or dye to penetrate and adhere to the timber as they should.

There are a number of exceptions and a heap of variations to the above and most are used solely by tradies who know their business inside out. Some are used by amateurs who aren't afraid to experiment.

Those are the ones that get the better finishes. Never be afraid to experiment. Just don't do it on the finished article.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :D

PS I will happily sand up to 600 or even 800 grit before applying the first coat of any finish. Which is usually our Sanding Sealer or water, to raise the grain. Then I will sand lightly with either 800 or 1200 grit to cut back any raised grain before applying the first true coat of finish what ever it may be.

[Knurl]

Fascinated by this discussion about sealers and stains...and learning a lot!

Having just built my new shed and coming back to my old hobby after a long lay-off I realise that I need to study up.

1. I have seen some beautiful woodwork that displays the grain and feels like silk to the touch. Where can I find some useful links about choosing finishes, application techniques and finishing?
2. How the heck can you tell if shellac is on an item of furniture? Or for that matter how do you recognise any treatment. I have to repair nested coffee tables that the puppy chewed (serious damage to the legs). I suspect it's finished with shellac and that's mainly because it's about 1960 vintage, dark brown in colour and sands quickly to clear timber (a very soft white coloured timber, but definitely not pine).

Help will be appreciated. Can get pics if it helps.

[Kev Y.]

instead of resurecting this old thread, why not start a new one and show us your project attached to that one.:)

[Knurl]

Ta Brudda, I'll do that soon...look for a new thread!

[bennylaird]

I just apply a bit of sanding sealer to the end grain with my finger, quick sand and the apply the stain. Don't use it (SS) anywhere else.

[Ray J]

I don't want to stain. I just want to fill/seal Spalted Bech.

Do I use a sanding filler, or do I sand with the finishing oil a few times before finishing.

Ray:cool: