Hard Shellac Application

[Mmcbain]

Help please.

I am sure you experienced woodworkers are a little tired of seeing posts from me, but you have such a wealth of expertise and excellent advise.

Okay, have I crawled enough ?

I have bought Neil's book, and are about to apply Hard Shellac to a kauri pine table top. I have also searched the archives for any information to Hard Shellac, with little success.

I have noted in the book it is recommended to thin other shellac products by 25% with metho (Hard Shellac I believe is a new product not listed in "the bible"). Is this required with Hard Shellac? Is it recommended to sand (by hand or mechanical) between coats? Would you use the same product on the legs, or would the white shellac be a better option? Would you recommend waxing ( just the legs I think) after application?

I promise, I won't bore you any longer with 20 questions.

As always, appreciate your help.

Regards.

Marlene ;) ;) ;) :confused: :confused: :confused:

[zitan]

Hi Marlene;

To me shallacs are all the same, hard shellac included, when it comes to application. It actually doesn't matter what critical 'cut' you use because the finish doesn't care how much alcohol it was dissolved in. I see lots of people frustrating themselves over 1lb, 1/2lb cuts, trying to get exact formula and so on. All I do is mix (dry or premixed) till it looks right! It shouldn't be heavy or syrupy, just slightly more viscous than plain meths. Most pre-mixed shellacs need to be thinned however since manufacturers are trying to give you the most value for money in the bottle.

As for sanding, don't sand dry. I use W&D paper lubricated with olive oil (paraffin also works), or pumice with a alcohol dampened pad when I also need to flatten and fill. A clean alcohol dampened pad cleans up any oil residue. Do this by hand. (If buffing/final polishing to a super-gloss look you should save your wrists by using a power tool).

Use the same product on the legs, just brush it on for the carved areas (don't pad as you'll most likely burn through on edges and buildup in depressions).

Finish with wax and a dry cloth will seem to float along the tabletop.

zitan

[ozwinner]

Help please.

I am sure you experienced woodworkers are a little tired of seeing posts from me, but you have such a wealth of expertise and excellent advise.

Okay, have I crawled enough ?We never tire of seeing posts, we might take the p1ss, but Im sure we help in the end. :D




Is this required with Hard Shellac? Would you use the same product on the legs, or would the white shellac be a better option? Would you recommend waxing ( just the legs I think) after application?Im a shaver my self, never tryed shellac or wax

Cheers, Al :D :D

[Mmcbain]

Hey Al, better watch outyou don't get any "nicks", they can show through the fish nets... ! ! Love it, put a smile on the dial ! ! Not the response I was thinking of though....

Marlene

[Mmcbain]

Hi Zitan,

Thank you so much for the very informative response. Can you please explain the wet and dry sand paper - don't know much about that - any particular grit?

Look forward to response.

Cheers.

Marls :)

[Gumby]

I've just done a blackwood top using hard shellac. First I brushed it on with no success. It dried too fast and I hadn't diluted it. I just couldn't get an even finish. I sanded it all off and started again. First get your top as smooth as possible. At least down to 400 grit with a random orbital sander. Work through the grades say from 150, 240, 320 to 400 and even to 800 if you like. A coat of Sanding sealer is a good first step. Then give it a light sand (check out the Ubeaut web site for details). Once the top is *really* smooth, use hard shellac cut to 50% with Metho and apply with a pad (soft cloth made into a pad). Apply evenly by dipping the pad in to the shellac, rubbing it on the top and you'll be amazed at the finish. My table had about 6 or 7 of these thin coats before i gave it a light rub with 800 wet&dry. (get that from any good paint store or Bunnings etc) . Then another couple of thin shellac coats again. A final light rub and I finished with some Ubeaut EEE polish because I wanted a high shine.

The trick is to have the shellac thinned down, lots of light coats and your in business. It dries so fast you can recoat very soon after each one.

I'm no expert but that's what I used after getting some advice and it works.

[Mmcbain]

Gumby, you are an absolute legend - and don't you let anyone tell any different. Your information is exactly what I needed - and thanks for the tip about brushing - I was going to head that way as I thought it would be the easiest thing to do - I will now just have to practise a bit with the pad.

The hard shellac I have I purchased from Ubeaut, already made up in liquid form, so can I assume this can be thinned down as you have mentioned.

Don't know much - correction - anything about wet and dry sanding methods - is it as zitan explained - olive oil or parrifin - further explaination on that would help.

I so love this forum. I have learnt so much ! !

Thanks again.

Ciao for now.

Marls :) :) ;) ;)

[ozwinner]

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/love/kiss.gif

[Gumby]

The wet & dry stuff is exactly as it sounds. It's a paper which can be used dry like normal sand paper but you can also wet the surface slightly and it forms as knd of paste as it sands. Just do it the same as you would with any other sand paper. It can be purchased easily up to grades of about 1200 so it's very fine stuff. I didn't wet mine down using the 800 or 1200 grit as it's only a very light rub anyway. If you have a random orbit sander, using 400 grit actually gives a smoother finish than if you do it by hand. In other words, 400 on an orbital is like 800 by hand and so on.

With the pad, mix the hard shellac/metho 50/50 in a small jar and then put the pad over the top and turn it upside down to wet the pad a bit. Then just rub it straight on. Use long strokes and try to avoid going over it again. Mix a small amount and have a practice on some smooth scrap. I used the same Ubeaut Hard Shellac that you have, which is very good gear. I wouldn't get too worried about the olive oil or parrafin stuff yet. Get this right first and you can experiment later. It's really a method straight from Neil's book but I put on more thin coats than suggested. As you apply each coat, you can see the finish improve.

[Mmcbain]

Thanks again Gumby - you are perfect in your discription of how to do "stuff". Glad to "talk" to someone who has used the product, and as the learner I am, I am definitely soaking up ALL information.

Like the tip with the EEE - I was wondering about that.

I seriously can not thank you enough - once I have finished (be a couple of weeks now as I am off to Melbourne for a visit soon), be right into and hopefully post a photo once all is completed.

I am going to have to stain the new piece of timber to blend in a little better, but once that is done ( in the throws of choosing the right colour - leaning towards a honey oak colour I have seen in a gel stain), into it I am.

Seriously I have learnt so much from everyone on this forum and can now "attack" the table with much more confidence and "gusto".

Cheers!

Marls.
;) ;) ;) :) :) :)

[zitan]

Gumby has it right - You'll find W&D paper at any hardware store, its the dark grey (silicon-carbide) stuff. Wet sanding it just eliminates clogging the paper up. Dry sanding with a power tool is a sure fire way to score and destroy your nicely worked surface. 400, 600, 1200 grits are enough. 600 will become a 1200 through use anyway. Automotive finish shops often offer 1800-2000 grits, and I saw recently that woodcraft has even higher grits available. Don't know why anyone would actually use them when its faster to use a buffing compound. Even Brasso works on shellac.

Just one more thing to note - Leave the table for several days before you do any final buffing and waxing. Weekend woodies shouldn't have any problem with this. It's just that a well built up shellac polish will take a couple of days or up to 2 weeks to fully harden and cure. It won't be so noticeable on softwoods, but on open grained hardwoods like walnut I always find that the shellac shrinks into the pores after a week or two. You can then do the final levelling, spiriting or buffing with no problems.

[Mmcbain]

Thanks everyone for your help - I am much better informed now and can approach the final stages with confidence.

I have had the table since February, so I don't think it will be too much of an issue to allow the finish to "cure". Just removing the last of the old finish off the legs - little harder to get into the grooves, but I am nearly there, so once that is completed - look out.

I could give you all a big bear hug for your tips and advise. You are all legends - one very appreciative "L" plater ! !

Cheers for now.

Marls
:D :D :D :D :D :D

[ozwinner]

This all I could find in the bear department.http://www.computerpannen.com/cwm/ups/DeNiro/bear.gif

Al :D

[Sturdee]

Marlene,

I am currently doing a course in french polishing and as such I am restoring a small table. These are the steps I've been taught.

If laquered remove with paint remover and neutralize with metho. Scrape the table top and then sand to 400 grit. Apply two coats of spirit stain to bring out the colour and follow with two brushcoats of shellac (3lb cut which is the same as Neill recommends) and leave to harden for a day.

Rub back with steel wool ( 0 grade) and then apply polish ( thinned down 50/50 ) with a rubber (pad). After a decent layer has been put on let it dry for the rest of the day.

Repeat the previous step untill you are satisfied with the thickness and shine.

After this apply the wax finish if desired.

For the legs if the polish or laquer is okay wash down using steel wool with a mixture of lindseel oil and turps and then apply polish with a rubber untill satisfied with the shine.

I use Neill's Shellac but Hard Shellec would be similar in use.

Another way of doing it.

[Bunyip]

Hey Peter,

Did they advise at to the type of metho to use used when cutting shellac?

I know that we should be using 100% IMS and not the 95% domestic metho, but I have never had a problem with blooms etc in the past from using 95%.

Just curious ...

[Gumby]

Thanks everyone for your help - I am much better informed now and can approach the final stages with confidence.

I:D

No probs. There's nothing like learning from somebody else's mistakes ! :)

Zitan is right about leaving the work for a few days after applying the shellac. That info is also in Neil's book.

Happy finishing.

[Ben from Vic.]

I am going to have to stain the new piece of timber to blend in a little better, but once that is done ( in the throws of choosing the right colour - leaning towards a honey oak colour I have seen in a gel stain), into it I am.



This one rang an alarm bell, will this stain work with shellac?

I could just be paranoid. Just hate to see it all go wrong after such good advice.

Anyone?

Ben.

[Sturdee]

I know that we should be using 100% IMS and not the 95% domestic metho, but I have never had a problem with blooms etc in the past from using 95%.


We use ordinary metho straight from Bunnies. Having read the polishers bible I asked about this and was told that this only became an issue if we worked continuously on a project without sufficient breaks for drying out and hardening of the polish.

The instructor is a craftsman of the old school having been a furniture restorer for about 40 years and expects us to get the items to a piano gloss finish without any wax finish.

BTW I am also worried that the stain you are considering would not be suitable so I would try it out on a separate piece first.

[mickspry]

[quote=Ben from Vic.]This one rang an alarm bell, will this stain work with shellac?

I could just be paranoid. Just hate to see it all go wrong after such good advice.

Anyone?

I often use gel stains under shellac and have no probs however i use a couple of brush coats first befor I start to rub with a pad

Mick