Forum faux pas?

[mikm]

This may seem a bit frivolous, but I'm genuinely interested to know why some people consider the following situations to be grave forum faux pas.

1) Resurrection of an 'old' thread.

-Every so often, an old thread is resurrected when the new poster responds to something but doesn't take notice of the date, or they are just interested in the topic and don't care how old it is. I don't get why some people feel an intolerable urge to jump in and question why the new post was made, or even to comment on the age of the original posts. It seems as useful to me as asking someone with a plaster cast if they broke their arm. Everyone can see it's broken (or an old thread) - does it really require a comment stating the obvious?


2) Asking 'obvious' questions.

-Along the lines of "Which hammer is best?" or "How to stop rust on my table saw". Does it really matter how many times the same question has been asked before, or how simple the answer may seem to some people? The compulsion some people have to reply with "use the search function" or something similar just makes me smile and think 'you idiot'. Insert any one of the "that's as useful as a .... on a ...." proverbs here. This is like people whinging about the lack of television censorship - if you don't like it, don’t watch it (or read the thread). Seems pretty simple to me...


To reiterate, this isn't a non-specific whinge, or an underhanded dig at anyone, I just see this sort of thing crop up occasionally and I really am very curious to know what the rest of you think. Am I the only nut job that wastes brain cells thinking about this? <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='12pt; 12pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/MICHAE~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif" o:href="http://www.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/standard/biggrin.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->:D<!--[endif]--> Do you agree, or do you think I'm barking up the wrong tree?

[damian]

1) Resurrection of an 'old' thread.

Often it's a thread that pertains to a sale or items for sale or people that are no longer on the forum or equipment that isn't available anymore. If you just stumble upon an old thread and don't bother looking at the dates and post a followup to it your making a goose of yourself. Like making a dirty joke in a church.


2) Asking 'obvious' questions.

It's a question of manners. If you were a waiter and you had a constant stream of customers walking in asking you to recite the menu even if it's printed up would you get fed up ? If you were a librarian and had a stream of customers wanting you to find books for them because they were too lazy to go look for themselves would you get fed up ?

People open the threads because they want to help, but if your constantly confronted with questions that can be answered in seconds with a keyword search it's annoying.

I am guilty of asking faq's, but I make a point of looking before I ask. I regard that as good manners. When I do ask I point out that I looked, I'm not very good at search and apologise for the bother. That gets a rather more positive response.

[echnidna]

Generally I'd rather see an old thread re-opened than a new thread started.
It avoids much duplication and concentrates info.

[Groggy]

1) Resurrection of an 'old' thread.
I am one of the 'guilty' ones who will post a comment, usually because it appears the poster has missed the date. If they haven't missed it then there is no problem, but it can take a few posts before people get the hang of checking the date posts were made. Some people do a fair bit of research to help someone out with a problem posted years ago.

2) Asking 'obvious' questions.
Sometimes there are new answers that crop up so why not. They are the perennials.


Everyone approaches the forums with different needs and perspectives. Telling someone to do a search or check a date can help them to become better acquainted with the tools available to us here. "How" they are told is probably where the real issue lies.

BTW, these questions have been asked before too :U

[silentC]

Everyone can see it's broken (or an old thread)
Can they? I've seen reopened threads go on for pages before anyone realised they were responding to a post from 2003 made by someone who flew the coup years ago. :)

I don't see any problem with pointing it out, especially when it's a very specific query that will not be of much value to anyone else.

However there's nothing wrong with posting something like "came across this old thread and thought this relevant new information might be useful to future readers blah blah". However I think most people just fail to read the date.

The real question is whether or not you should let it bother you. :wink:

[silentC]

these questions have been asked before tooBugger!! I should've said "do a search!!" because they have been asked before, more than once. If you've been around here long enough you've seen it all....

[Rossluck]

Interesting questions. I've also been a bit surprised by some of the "hey you, get back in your box" responses to the heinous crimes of commenting in an old thread, or asking a question that's been asked before a few times. I really think that we could do with an archival deposit for threads older than a year. These archives could be included in searches, but not generally available for members to stumble upon while just looking around.

With the "what cordless drill should I buy" questions. I think that they're OK. Technology is changing. An answer of a year ago may not apply now. A lot of members are polite enough to answer the question and then refer the inquirer to the previous discussions. That's the way to go. It functions as a subtle hint as well.

[Sturdee]

The compulsion some people have to reply with "use the search function" or something similar just makes me smile and think 'you idiot'. Insert any one of the "that's as useful as a .... on a ...." proverbs here.

May be that is because the forum owner and illustrious leader Ubeaut himself that has posted in reply to a query to " Do a search" .

BTW if you want to know the link to that post may I humbly suggest that you "Do a search". :D

Peter.

[Papa]

But remember, a lot of new members are also new to the internet,
they don't have a clue about searching, posting images, downloading
a file and so on.

As well, when they do a search, they find a 2003 post and respond
without looking at the date.

We were all newbies at one time, I say, be polite and help everyone
you can.

I was a teacher for several years, and I answered the same questions
over and over, sometimes during the same period and the same
person.

One thing that bothers me and I think discourages newbies is when
they say "I am new to woodworking and need a table saw, what
should I get". And they are told "You will never be happy unless you
get a $5000 Super X Turbo Master Cutter. Or what ever they are
called.:roll:

I am new here as well and this is without question the nicest forum
I have ever been a member of. Lots of help and lots of fun.
I am still waiting for some help in the scroll saw forum??:;:;:;

[chrisp]

these questions have been asked before tooAnd while we are having this nice little discussion about gaucheries, I find to annoying when quotes have the poster and post number removed (see the sample above :rolleyes: ). I find I can spend a fair bit of time trying work out who is being quoted.
:cool:

[joe greiner]

I think some threads are, in fact, archived, but probably more than a year old - maybe two or three years. I'm pretty sure I've seen a few pop up via Google search for something, even though another hit provided the information I sought. The archived threads are in a slightly different format, IIRC.

I've established my own index file for threads of interest, including some of my own threads. That's how it's easier for me to cite something old. And easier than subscribing or bookmarking them.

To make matters worse, upgrades to the software can enable or disable some functions. At one time, we had Google built-in for forum searches.

I don't think you're barking up the wrong tree, but it isn't my primary source of stress.:wink:

Cheers,
Joe

[Gingermick]

Didn't you see the old thread, do a search.

:repplus:
:))

[BobR]

The old thread and obvious question thing does not worry me. What does get me is new thread titles the are meaningless - "Help", "What is this",..... I only look at threads that catch my eye and are of interest to me, or where I feel that I can make a contribution. I don't have time to look at them all.

[Rattrap]

To be honest it really burns my butt when i get or read the 'use the forum search engine' post. Any time i read it in 1 of my threads or others my first thought to post is. 'way to go fool, fat lot of good your are!'
I don't tho cuse that would be almost as useless as the search engine post.
I usually search this forum for answers to my questions before i post but sometimes u need just the right keyword to stumble on what u are looking for.
Honestly if u can't be bothered to respond to the question with a useful answer or at least post a link to a previous thread then why even bother responding in the first place?

[silentC]

Well it's like this: I know there are several threads that answer your question, I haven't got time/can't be bothered searching for them for you, but if I make you aware that they exist, you might look a bit harder and find what you want.

So you might see it as a useless response, but it's up to you to choose your attitude. At least someone has confirmed for you that the answer is out there. I mean why do you think we have a search function? Why not just answer every question from scratch every time.

By the way, can anyone provide a link to a thread where someone has posted "Do a search" and left it at that? I've suggested search a few times in the past and I usually say something like "if you search for 'forum faux pas' I'm sure there have been a number for threads about this". I've been here for awhile and often I can recall that there was a thread about the topic but not sure where. Do you really expect me to go looking for it for you?

If that seems foolish to you, well at the end of the day, you're the one asking the question, it's no skin off my nose. But if that's what you want, I'll quite happily ignore any future questions you might post :)

[damian]

I try to be polite when I'm pointing out that a search will answer the question or that the thread is old.

If I'm trying to help someone I'm doing it voluntarily and at no cost. You have no right to demand a helpful post from me.

If the questioner is new then pointing out the usefullness of search is educating and helping them.

[mikm]

Lots of good stuff here. And this reminds me of another point to add to the list: people with short attention spans who whine about long posts. :D<o></o>>
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damian, regarding old threads: under the circumstances you mention, I agree that a new poster is a bit of a dill, but said dill is occasionally crucified for what is arguably a fairly small infraction. Regarding obvious questions, I don’t agree with your analogy. In each example, the waiter or the librarian is obliged by good manners to respond to a question asked of them by the general public and also to their employer to carry out the job for which they were employed.<o></o>
I don’t think one is necessarily ‘guilty’ of asking FAQ’s, but I do agree that a bit of a search first is the right thing to do.<o></o>
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Telling someone to do a search or check a date can help them to become better acquainted with the tools available to us here. "How" they are told is probably where the real issue lies.

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Absolutely<o></o>
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I don't see any problem with pointing it out, especially when it's a very specific query that will not be of much value to anyone else.
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Hmmm, that’s a pretty big call to make, silent. I would have thought the only person qualified or more specifically, with the right to make value judgements on posts, is our benevolent dictator himself.<o></o>
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The real question is whether or not you should let it bother you. <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='12pt; 12pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/MICHAE~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif" o:href="http://www.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/standard/wink.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->:wink:<!--[endif]-->
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Mate, I couldn’t agree more as that’s exactly my point. An internet forum isn’t a face to face interaction where good manners require you to listen to each comment and respond accordingly. It’s a whole lot easier to ignore silly posts than to get hot under the collar about it to the point of an unbearable urge tell them how stupid they are for whatever reason.<o></o>
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As above, Peter, I reckon Neil has every right to do whatever he likes here. His playground, his rules, enforced by his deputies. Cant see how any ‘disciplinary’ rights are implied or otherwise to the rest of us drones, just because the boss does it.<o></o>
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Seems to be some reasonable sentiments there, Papa.


Continued below...<o>
</o>

[mikm]

Bob; another one I should have added to the list, perhaps. I too find a vacuous title along the lines of “Help!!!” a serious disincentive to read it, underlining my point from above: I don’t get stressed about it, jump into the thread and grumble about how silly it is. I just ignore it and move onto something that actually interests me.<o></o>
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Pretty much sums up my position, Rattrap and I think damian has a good handle on it as well, although I think there is some “loss in translation’ occurring in a conversation by correspondence. I read Rattrap’s post along the lines of ‘if you haven’t got anything nice to say, don’t bother saying it’, not an expectation of help. That’s my take on it anyway. We’ll have to wait and see what he thinks.<o></o>
Thanks for your input, peoples

Cheers,<o></o>
Mick<o></o>

[silentC]

Hmmm, that’s a pretty big call to make, silent. I would have thought the only person qualified or more specifically, with the right to make value judgements on posts, is our benevolent dictator himself.<o></o>
To the contrary, I think it is an opinion that anyone here has the right to hold and express. Whether it counts for anything or not is a different matter. Incidentally, in addition to Neil, who rarely shows his head around here these days, you have all the moderators, whose opinion does carry some weight. So I guess if they are unhappy with the situation with respect to "do a search" postings, they will make it known by editing or deleting the post, as they frequently do when posts "break the rules". So considering that none have been deleted that I'm aware of, I can safely conclude that no-one in a position of power has an issue with it.

[silentC]

I read Rattrap’s post along the lines of ‘if you haven’t got anything nice to say, don’t bother saying it’, not an expectation of help.

I don't read it that way.


Honestly if u can't be bothered to respond to the question with a useful answer or at least post a link to a previous thread then why even bother responding in the first place?

He wants me to go and find the thread and post a link to it. I have done that before, but I certainly wouldn't do it if I thought it was expected. It's all about your attitude.

As a last resort, if you find someone's contributions unhelpful, you can always use the "ignore this member" option. :)

[mic-d]

I think there is something wrong with members who tell you to do a search when you've been a member for a number of years:p:) A recent example (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=906620&postcount=26) where I had something new to add about the search engine. I don't like the 'do a search' response when there is an implication that's it's all been done before and noone can possibly add to the previous information.
There was another thread I posted recently about a technique I found useful, (that had not been mentioned before) that quickly turned to a discussion of other methods that had been discussed before. Someone suggested I should have done a search, based on seeing everyone else's chatter. That also annoyed me a bit. So, don't post "do a search" to me (I've been around long enough to know what to do) or else I come and find you.:wink::q:).

Cheers
Michael

[mikm]

To the contrary, I think it is an opinion that anyone here has the right to hold and express.

Yeah, come to think of it, you're probably right there, mate. Every member is of course entitled to their opinions. (without wanting to bring down my genuine sentiments in what I just wrote, begin togue in cheek speculation on my part, as I'm no expert here :) ) Also, since wwf is a .com, not a .com.au site and thus hosted in the States, free speech is an enforcable right. With an absence of a bill of rights, the only right to fredoom of speech in Aus is that of political free speech. (end smarty pants)

I Agree that a lack of comment/action on the part of the mods/owner simply reinforces that no forum rules have been broken. However, it has no bearing on whether the type of comments being discussed here are any more or less sensible, silly, rude or otherwise. It was interest in people's thougts on the latter that inspired me to begin the thread.


....I certainly wouldn't do it if I thought it was expected. It's all about your attitude.

As a last resort, if you find someone's contributions unhelpful, you can always use the "ignore this member" option. :) I think you're spot on there.

[silentC]

I think, like most things in life, it comes down to how it's done. If it's dismissive, I can understand people getting their knickers in a knot over it. On the other hand, I truly believe that suggesting someone search a topic is actually helpful advice in many cases.

In this day and age there really is no excuse for not knowing the answer to something, when all you have to do is Google it. I find myself stopping myself asking people questions now, because all I have to do is go and Google it and I know I'll find an answer: it's no longer necessary to wonder when that song was released, or how that stuff is made, or what happened to so and so. In a way it's a conversation killer. And you have people who race off to Google things when you're having an argument. I see questions asked in Column8 (Sydney Morning Herald) and I wonder "don't these people have Internet connections?"

Forums like this are great for collecting wisdom, advice and information together in one place. If you just replied "do a search" to any topic that ever comes up, we'd have nothing to post about any more. We'd be restricted to talking about new tools and showing photos of the work we've done. I've learned a lot just by participating in discussions here, even though some of them have been done to death.

However, I think there is a place for suggesting a search. My advice is, if someone seems to be genuinely trying to help, don't bite their head off, either give it a go, or ignore it. If they seem to be just being smart asres, consider that not everyone is in possession of a bedside manner, and then drop on them from a great height :D No, we should be polite to each other at all times :p

[mikm]

Forums like this are great for collecting wisdom, advice and information together in one place. If you just replied "do a search" to any topic that ever comes up, we'd have nothing to post about any more. We'd be restricted to talking about new tools and showing photos of the work we've done. I've learned a lot just by participating in discussions here, even though some of them have been done to death.

However, I think there is a place for suggesting a search. My advice is, if someone seems to be genuinely trying to help, don't bite their head off, either give it a go, or ignore it. If they seem to be just being smart asres, consider that not everyone is in possession of a bedside manner, and then drop on them from a great height :D No, we should be polite to each other at all times :p

Definitely. A great example I saw earlier today on how it should be done is this (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=912797&postcount=14).

So anyway silent, you and I both seem to have been on all morning. I'm at home looking after sick kids. What's your excuse? Why aren't you in the workshop making sawdust? :p

Seriously though, thanks for your input.

[silentC]

I'm in my office, which is in my shed, but I'm not making sawdust because I've got work to do :(

[Sturdee]

As above, Peter, I reckon Neil has every right to do whatever he likes here. His playground, his rules, enforced by his deputies. Cant see how any ‘disciplinary’ rights are implied or otherwise to the rest of us drones, just because the boss does it.

I tend to disagree with you. If you look at Neill's post (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=168138&postcount=6) you can see that he wasn't very happy, to the extend that he was shouting, with the poster asking a question again when it has been covered a lot of times before.

From that I infer that there are times when an instruction to do a search without any further details is appropriate.

Personally I don't do it anymore as I can't be bothered posting when it's obvious that a search will give the answer, often in a pararell thread, eg the recent GMC threads running concurrently.

Peter.

[damian]

Definitely. A great example I saw earlier today on how it should be done is this (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=912797&postcount=14).

So anyway silent, you and I both seem to have been on all morning. I'm at home looking after sick kids. What's your excuse? Why aren't you in the workshop making sawdust? :p

Seriously though, thanks for your input.

You linked to one of my posts there but it's not clear to me what you were saying about it. Are you using me as an example of poor posting, abuse, dismissal, or being helpful ?

I try to be helpful but I am well aware that sometimes the way I word things comes across as aggression. It's partly because I try to present short precise statments of what I think or know and that can look like I've got my back up sometimes.

Those little animations are hilarious aren't they ?:doh::B:q:no:

[silentC]

A great example I saw earlier today on how it should be done

:)

[damian]

Right. Saw that but wasn't sure. Thank you.

[mikm]

Just had a look back over what I originally had to say, to realise it could have been better worded with greater context specificity. I was trying to work out why I seemed to be in a disagreement with you Peter (which to me is odd since I generally/always have a great deal of respect for 'Sturdee' posts) and I think I just wasn't clear enough initially. So.

In general, while I reckon the phrase 'use the search function' is stating the obvious, new members with post counts in the single digits and the rest of us in a brain fade sometimes benefit from such. So yes, on reflection, I think you're quite right about the suggestion having validity.
That leaves the tone of delivery. What I had in mind in the passage you originally quoted was the somewhat ordinary manner with which presenting the suggestion is often carried out. While a generalisation, on the majority of occasions I have noticed the hapless 'asker' of the 'obvious question' is promply flogged. I dont like using the post by Neil you linked to as an example because he above all others is entitled to do whatever he likes, but I would suggest that the tone displayed coming from anyone else is unnecessary, hence my link to damien's post as a good example of helpful advice

Apologies for the confusion, damien. silentC was on the money - the 'it' I was referring to was 'helpfully pointing someone in the right direction'.

[RETIRED]

I tend to disagree with you. If you look at Neill's post (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=168138&postcount=6) you can see that he wasn't very happy, to the extend that he was shouting, with the poster asking a question again when it has been covered a lot of times before.

From that I infer that there are times when an instruction to do a search without any further details is appropriate.

Personally I don't do it anymore as I can't be bothered posting when it's obvious that a search will give the answer, often in a pararell thread, eg the recent GMC threads running concurrently.

Peter.Go down another few posts and you will see the apology.:cool:

[Sturdee]

Go down another few posts and you will see the apology.:cool:


I forgot about that :- just did a search on do a search by Ubeaut to show result as posts, maybe I should have reread the whole thread.


Peter.

[Rossluck]

I forgot about that :- just did a search on do a search by Ubeaut to show result as posts, maybe I should have reread the whole thread.


Peter.

And you dug up an old thread. :no::no::no::no::D

[astrid]

If everyone searched for an anwer before asking you'd be very bored bunnies:rolleyes:

what annoys me, is those who post a Q, get a detailed and carefully thought out answer or even a personal visit and not so much as a ta very much in response.:cool:

[echnidna]

that's common

[Rattrap]

wow u guys been busy. lol.
I've been pouring concrete into the footings for the shed i'm building at home here.
When i said the 'use the forum search engine' type post i was referring to instances when thats pretty much all there is in the post. I've suggested someone do a search before myself but not before a quick rundown on what i know or just a few pointers if i am in a hurry. But i would never for a moment demand a reply or a more detailed explanation on the spot. Nor would i ever expect it to be a 'deleteable' offence.
I'm all for free speach within the bounds common to most forums. I've been round enough years, on enough forums to know that it takes all sorts of people in all sorts of mood to make the world go round. If someone seams a bit abrupt/ etc to me or others it means nothing to me. I understand that some people are in a hurry or having a bad day or are from a different culture or any of another million little differences.
Just because a post 'burns my butt' doesn't mean i'm going to flame someone or start a vendeta or even igonore any of their future posts.

Its just my simple opinion that posts that just say 'use the forum search engine' or 'have u heard of a search engine?' & a dozen others we've all read are really pretty much useless. Unless its being suggested to a newbe, & in which case it defenately should be done much more politely, otherwise its pretty much a useless statement. If someone isn't a newbe then of course they know of & have used the search function.
It makes me feel like posting back 'thanks for stating the obvious' but of course i never would because for 1 it doesn't actually me off enough to reply & it could easily start off a pissing contest that i have no interest in messing round with.
I just don't see the point in banging my fingers on the keyboard just to say 'use the search engine' & nothing more.
If i'm in a hurry & its a noob question i just won't post because i know that there are plenty of others who may not be in a hurry & are happy to point them in the right direction.
If its a topic i have a particular interest or input in i'll make the time.
I'm not a big poster, i tend to mainly only post when i feel i that i can actually have an input on a topic & given my newness to the field of woodworking means that i tend not to post alot. lol. But i do read & i do search, infact i love to search, i'll read for hours on here & other forums on various topics of interest to me.
Sometimes i'll post what could be considered relative noob question (its not a noob question to a noob its new info, pure gold) to help clarify my days searching & talking to mates etc. I'm the sort who likes to work blind but with a heap of opinions from mates, teachers, forums etc hopefully with some of them the same or similar (more often not! lol). That way i can formulate a fix or a plan in a way that works best in my head. When i post a question i'm hunting for info, i'm craving information, its a literal hunger. I'm not hunting game on the range i'm hunting information on the internet. lol.
I'm sure i'm not alone, in fact i'd be suprised if most of us arn't just like that now or at some time in our lives.


If that seems foolish to you, well at the end of the day, you're the one asking the question, it's no skin off my nose. But if that's what you want, I'll quite happily ignore any future questions you might post :)
SilentC i am not fool enough to be happy if u chose to ignore any of my future questions, you have far more experence that i do. To do so would be a case of cutting my nose off to spite my face, & i like my nose thank you very much.:U But it would also be no skin off that very same nose if you chose to not give me your valued input, that's the beauty of this site & the internet in general - wheres there 1 opinion there's a thousand.:U:U
To be honest this whole business is bordering on silly & i probably wouldn't have worried about replying but for the fact that there was almost 2 pages of posts waiting for me when i came in, many referring to my earlier post.
But what the hell, the whole topic is based on purely personal preferences & that's fine & interesting, differing preferences are always interesting. So SilentC if you want to suggest that i do a search then feel free to suggest away, i don't really care that much how u put it as long as its not physically imposible or morrally impolite.:U
In my 13mths on this site i have found everyone on this site to be a genuinely helpful bunch of guys & girls, some who get a bug up their butts over the straingest things sometimes & thats fine, thats what gives forums a life of their own.

1 translation note for this post, & in fact in most of my posts, it was said with a tone & a heart of general levity & lightness.
Thats the bad thing about sites like this & the internet in general, you can't hear a persons tone when they post. If it offends me or just burns my butt i usually just don't reply because theres a very good chance that i have misconstrued them in the first place. And if i didn't misconstrue them & they were perhaps giving me just a little singe, then replying will probably lead to more of the same so whats the point?

Boy what a mouthfull!:doh:

[Sturdee]

And you dug up an old thread. :no::no::no::no::D

But only as a reference. At least I didn't post in that thread again.

Peter.