what is the secret of a nice finish ?

[EMistral]

Hi all,

I am currently making a cabinet which has door panels made of several boards of 1cm thick and glued together
although they were nicely cut, you can still see the thin joint between the boards
what I would like to know is the secret for finishing - if there is any - so that once it is stained or finished it is pretty hard to see these joints
when I go to a furnitures shop and see these big wooden tables, I am assuming that it is not only one big board but several joined together. And it is pretty hard to see the joint.
Of course it is their job and I don't expect to reach such level of "perfection" but if I could minimize the visual effect, I would be happy
I have tried the wood filler solution but it never works. It is pretty hard to find the same colour and even if you find something close enough, when you stained, the wood filler comes always brighter then worsening the expecting result
but maybe it's just me not using the wood filler correctly
I tried also mixing the saw dust with the wood glue to create an homogeneous paste but when it starts to dry it darkens
So I was thinking that maybe the secret lies in the finishing ?
thanks

[Ian Runge]

Hi Emistral,

You wrote ...
"Of course it is their job and I don't expect to reach such level of "perfection" but if I could minimize the visual effect, I would be happy "

I don't claim to be any kind of expert here, but I'll go out on a limb and suggest that edge joining boards so that you can hardly see the join is NOT a big ask even for an amateur woodworker. It is also one of the most satisfying things to do.

Of course the real key is making sure that the edges to be joined are straight and true, but there are reams of books and posts that discuss this, so I won't go any further into this for now.

My suggestion, particularly since you are talkling about boards only 10 mm thick is this:

1) Start with a board 25mm or so thick, and re-saw it. After dressing up this will give you two boards about 10mm thick with nearly identical grain pattern (both sides of the resawn cut). Now place them side by side (bookmatched).

2) The board should be longer than you need (perhaps 100mm longer). Then when you are placing them side-by-side you can slide one of them up and down to get a better match. It is surprising how only a few inches up or down allows a grain match that looks like it was made that way. Also longer boards mean you can cut off the ends later often avoiding the end effects that are sometimes a problem with thicknessed and/or planed/jointed boards.

3) Quarter-sawn boards show less character but are better from a "disguising the join" viewpoint. Boards that have colour change on one side (like a bit of sap wood on the edge of a board that is otherwise heartwood) also are great to hide book-matched joins, because you get this change of colour across the joined board and on casual observation it is hard to see the join in the midst of the colour change.

Hope this helps,

Ian R

[EMistral]

Thanks
That's exactly what I did last night
I had a board (actually a couple) that are 21cm wide and 3cm thick so I careful split in 2 pieces of 10cm and took care of marking which part was the top, bottom, left and right side so that once joined together they could match perfectly
I also did that to preserve the grain, patterns, etc...
I split them in 2 so now I have 4 boards of 1cm thick and once again I took care of marking the position of the boards so that they can be reassembled nicely
The result is satisfying because the grain and patterns are matching between boards, etc....
But I still want to minize the visual effect of the joint between boards
thanks for your advices anyway

[DaveInOz]

Did you re-saw the edges to be joined, or plane / joint them to ensure they were perfectly straight and flat?

When book matching, a 0.25mm deviation in the board edge will be doubled and 0.5mm is very visable. Each board needs to be seperatly planed / jointed to ensure a good fit.

[Ian Runge]

I agree with DaveinOz. Assuming the grain and colour can be nicely matched, the issue is the straightness of the join.

If I was doing this job, I'd run the boards together through the jointer, faces sides together, so if the jointer fence is a little off 90 deg. the angles plus or minus cancel out. I'd also take it slow through the jointer to minimise the undulations. But still I find it is not uncommon to get slight gaps when placed together using only hand pressure - so I nearly always finish each piece off with a hand plane.

If you don't have a jointer, then this is also not a hard job with a hand plane - but I'd recommend a shooting board if you have one or can make one. With a hand plane getting a nice straight edge is straight forward but I find with thin pieces, without a shooting board, I don't have the skill or talent to get the edge exactly 90 deg. to the board. Then when glue up you either get a flat final board with a gap, or a not-flat board with no gap.
Alternatively you could hand plane the two edges together, face sides together, so again any slight angle off 90 deg. will be compensated when the boards come together.

If all else fails, then instead of disguising the imprecise join I recommend you make a feature of it .... run a small groove down the join and either leave it like that or add a little inlay.

Ian R.

[EMistral]

thanks

This is what I did last night
As I mentioned early the results are quite satisfying for me also I would like to have this joint less visible

I had a 21cm wide board by 3cm thick
I cut the 21cm wide in 2 pieces of 10.5cm each in order to be able to rip them with my triton workbench (I know not the ideal tool !)
So I rip 2mm on each side of each board
Then I split the boards in 2 giving me 4 boards of 1cm each
As I said I carefully marked the board to remember exactly where they were located in the board so that the grain and pattern match.
Then I aligned the boards by respecting the order and slightly removed 1mm of each side
when side by side, the gap is probably 0.5mm or less
as I said I am quite happy with that but since it is a small door panel (45cm high) and on the side, it is less prone to be seen
but being a perfectionist, I'd like to go further

if by a jointer you mean a biscuit joiner, I have a GMC one
otherwise if it is a different tool, I don't have it
I also don't have a hand plan (I know , I know that's me next purchase)

[craigb]

If you don't have a jointer (no, not a biscuit joiner) or a hand plane, then you've done well to even get a 0.5 mm gap IMO.

You won't get it any better without using either one of those tools

[EMistral]

ok
so I guess for my next project I better have to buy a jointer or a hand plane
Sorry for my ignorance but what does a jointer look like ?

[craigb]

Like one of these:
http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/JETWood/Tools/JJ6CSX.html

[EMistral]

well I guess I will stick with the hand planer or electric planer since the jointer might be very expensive :)

[DarrylF]

Good suggestions - but a couple more for you:

Good glue helps. Get some Titebond from Carbatec if possible.

Staining is for factories to attempt to make pine look like real timber - not for cabinetmakers. It will make joints and imperfections stand out like the dog's proverbials.

Putty is for woodbutchers, or chippies to fill nail holes in architraves - not for cabinetmakers.

Buy a hand plane. Seriously. Read up on how to tune one and find yourself a good old Stanley #5 on eBay. Under $100 easy - I bought a nice 80+ year old US made type 11 for $46 + postage recently. Glued up & refinished the tote, sharpened & cleaned it and it's brilliant to use now.

[outback]

At the risk of creating another junkie.
I must endorse daryls remarks regarding buying older gear off Ebay or other outlets

If you shop around, search the net and ask questions here, you will quickly find that building a quality collection of handtools. Old tool steel which was used in the standard tools produced by Stanley etc. is much higher than the stuff offered today.
An old plane bought for next to nothing, then tuned will out perform anything the hardware shop down the road will sell you.

I know this as I am in the process of building my collection. My search list for ebay is a mile long and growing, but hell its satisfying.

[AlexS]

All the above is good advice. One other thing which may be an issue depending on the type of timber - if you bookmatch, you will always get different reflection from each board, because the grain is running in opposite directions. It's more obvious on some timbers than others, and often not at all until you've put a finish on. This will immediately draw the eye to the join. If you do a running match - ie each board laid up the same way - you won't get this effect.

[EMistral]

Thanks all
I checked Carbatec website for the titebond glue but which one to choose ?
or is there another one available ?

The original aliphatic resin or the extended wood glue ?
it seems the resin one is the best option

anybody knows a shop in Mlebourne selling that glue ?
I don't mind ordering on the net but I'll take the 3.7 litres and if I ahve to pay $30 for shipping, that's a bit too much
Carbatec charged me $10 shipping for a dowel guide that weighs 200-300g so I am a bit scared of what they will charge me for a 3.7 litres can that might weighs 3 kilos

[EMistral]

Sorry to bother you but something I forgot to ask in the previous post:
how do you choose a plane ?
DarrylF mentioned a #5 plane.
I have just checked on ebay and there are #52, #55, #14, #101, etc....

What does this number mean ?
Is it related to the type of usage the plane will perform ?

[DaveInOz]

everything you ever wanted to know about stanley planes is here (http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0.htm)

[DarrylF]

Might be a little too much information for a plane newbie - you could get lost for hours there :)

The general range of bench planes are numbered 3 to 8 basically - there are variations within that, but basically:

#3 - Smallish plane for smoothing boards
#4 - General purpose smoothing plane
#4 1/2 - Wider version of the number 4
#5 - 'Jack' plane - longer than the #4, used for smoothing through to jointing work
#5 1/2 - wider version of the 5
#6 - longer and wider than the 5
#7 - longer again - a jointer plane for flattening boards/jointing edges
#8 - longer again

'C' is for corrugations on the sole, supposed to make it easier to push. Personal preference thing.

Then you get into a whole range of other numbers - block planes (small planes for edges, small work, end grain etc.).

Best recommendation - a #4 for smoothing, a #5 for general purpose/jointing, something around a #60 1/2 or #220 for a block plane.

You can buy Stanley, Record and a number of others. You're pretty safe with Stanley. Record are OK too mostly. Many of the others are rather variable. US made Stanley is considered better than UK made, which is considered better than Australian made. IME that's right. Pre-war is better than post. Solid Rosewood for knob & tote is definitely nice - and definitely look for solid wood unless you have the skills to make your own. Buying is too expensive.

Or if it's all too hard, you could go buy yourself a #4, #5 and a low angle block plane (all Stanley) from Bunnings - probably $300 all up, half to 2/3 of that on eBay for old, better versions. New ones will work just fine with a bit of tuning up - especially the block plane.

Good luck :)

[popawisky]

G'day

i'll just chip in with my two cents worth
Recently I purchased some jarrah offcut packs 200mmx 90mmx 10mm. To cut a long story short. I dragged out the orange stuff and planed the edges, then using the one up one down method, biscuit joined them. Once sanded it is difficult to see the joins. in some instances the only reference to a join is the change of colour.
So true the edges, tongue and groove or biscuit join, then sand for a smooth finish. Rember one grain up, one grain down.

:(

[EMistral]

You are right Darryl, I spent hours yesterday trying to read all these pages but they are confusing
I came to the conclusion that the planes to use are within the #1 - #8 range as mentioned in the pages and by you.

I had a look on ebay and found some #4 and #5 for $US30 and most of them are 100 years old of pre-war.
why are they so cheap if they are supposed to be collector items?
It is not too expensive and I am prepared to buy them but I am a bit suspicious regarding the price.

also for popawisky, what do you mean by grain up, grain down or one up, one down method ?

when I cut my boards which were 21cm wide, I cut them in half widthwise and carefully marked their location before the board was cut. For instance I tagged them "left up", "right up"
Then I slip each of these 10cm boards in 2 of 1cm
Once again I tagged them "left bottom", "right bottom"
I also carefully marked the corner where they were joining on the intial board
Therefore was everything was planned and cut, I just realigned "left up" with "right up", "left bottom" with "right bottom" to keep the grain and patterns
then after it was a matter of aligning the 2 "up" boards with the 2 "down" boards
is this the type of method you are refering ?

[DarrylF]

Be careful about buying planes from the US - you could find that by the time you pay the shipping and the exchange rate you're well behind.

There's a reasonable Aussie eBay market for planes, so you should be able to pick up something locally.

[jimmyjames]

Hi, all. I've been experimenting with joining boards to make table tops, cabinet sides etc etc. I match the boards, clamp and glue, plane then sand but still am disapointed with my efforts.

I'm not trying to match it with some of the really amazing people on this site and the results they get. Frankly I don't have the budget or obsession but I'm determined to better the mdf rubbish a few of the major retailers put in a box and call furniture.

The problems I'm having are small gaps in the joins (as above). Also I have a hard time getting the joined 'plank' flat / level and generally am frustrating the hell out myself.

I'm limited in the tools area. Mostly power tools ie: c/saw for ripping, b/joiner for joining, electric rebate plane for planing. Bosh orbital for sanding, very few hand tools. I'm a bit short on knowledge too, browsed a few library books, this site and thats about it.

Do I have to buy hand planes? Am I using my power plane incorrectly? How do I get these damn boards to line up and be flat!!!

Finally, as I work more with timber I find no matter how accurately I try to cut / measure / join there are always inconsistancies. Sometimes a little out of square or a joint is a little off etc. Is this and the nescessary fix I have to do to be expected, or am I just kidding myself in thinking that an inexperienced guy with low quailty power tools can make half decent furniture?

[echnidna]

Jimmy,
Your tools are inadequate to get a truly straight joint.
Your aim should be to get your boards so straight that when you hold 2 edges together by hand you cannot see light through the join.

With practise you can do it with a handplane,
But I think most of the forum members use a jointer, or a router.
However I use a sawbench and my joints are invisible.

You are NOT kidding yourself in thinking that an inexperienced guy with low quailty power tools can make half decent furniture

It takes a little practise and seeking advise which you are already doing..

For a newbie with your tools I suggest you start with dressed timber. Make each panel from the same length of timber but alternate the boards so that every second board is upside down. This will even out the effects of slightly different edge angles. When you are gluing them together get all the top surfaces so you cant feel a difference in height when you lightly glide your fingers across the join.

An easier alternative than this is to make your panels from T&G flooring glued together. By cutting very fine wedges from your offcuts and tapping them lightly into the ends the gaps in the ends are filled.

[jimmyjames]

Ta echidna. At the moment I join using thicker boards than needed and keep planing and sanding till and acceptable result is achieved. No light seems to pass through the joins and this has improved my results but that beautiful seamless join and flat surface you see in good furniture is missing.

I never thought of using a router and straight cutter to get a truer edge on my cut boards, you are suggesting I rip the thin boards from a larger piece using the router and cutter aren't you?

When joining the dressed boards, my current method is clamping side to side at intervals to push the boards together then a lenght of timber above and below the boards at intervals to prevent cuping of the 'plank'. From your suggestion I think I'll place the good side down on a flat surface (thick sheet mdf) and clamp from side to side being careful to avoid cupping. This should give me a reasonably flat good side to start off with so I won't have to plane hell out of it. Agree?

If all else fails the t&g flooring lengths sound like a fine idea but I'm just too stubborn to give up yet!

Thanks very much for replying.

[EMistral]

It's good to see that I am not the only one having problems with joining boards ! :)

I have never thought of a router too for having a straight edge
Thanks for that and I will try that as soon as possible (tomorrow)
I let you know if it's getting better for me or not.

otherwise, if I want to rip a board that is slightly bowed, how would you guys proceed ?
I have a triton WC and read their manual and they suggest to use double-sided tape, stick the bowed board to a flat one and run the flat board together with the board on the table saw in order to obtain a true flat surface
once you have obtain this flat surface,there is no need of the second board to rip the other side
That 's what I did but no matter what I try, the first pass is smooth but when I turn the board (end to end) to rip the second half (I need two passes because the boards are wider than the saw), there is always a difference in height between the 2 passes

what is the solution (apart of buying a thicknesser which is my next purchase - tired of cutting nice wide boards in half to be able to rip them with my saw) ?

[Ian Runge]

EMistral wrote:


what is the solution (apart of buying a thicknesser which is my next purchase - tired of cutting nice wide boards in half to be able to rip them with my saw) ?

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but cutting nice wide boards in half might soon be something that you choose to do to get stable flat surfaces like table tops. Nice wide boards are usually plain-sawn, prone to cupping, and somewhat prone to splitting. Once you can join two boards seamlessly, then cutting them in half and re-joining them is the way to solve this problem. See my post earlier today in the forum:
> HAND TOOLS AND MACHINERY > To joint or not to joint .....

WARNING ... WARNING .... seems like you are headed down the path of more and more tools. If you've got lots of skill and talent and time you don't need lots of tools, BUT ... if you're like me (see my signature!)


Ian R.