Asbestos....

[Eastie]

On the weekend I continued the quest to exorcise my house of the tortures it has suffered at the hands of inept past owners. High on the list is a proper restumping job, but not before I address the issue of drainage. Within ten minutes of action on the crowbar and trenching shovel I had a trench three feet long, one foot deep and a bucket full of broken up asbestos cement sheet that had been buried by the previous owners. Why they bothered moving so much soil to bury it rather than pay the fee at the local licensed asbestos tip is beyond me?

Anyway I thought about writing a bit of a blurb about asbestos safety, but I’d only be repeating what others have already penned so I’ve linked a couple of good reference documents for dealing with asbestos in the home. Although the principles of these documents are universal, like railway gauges our laws aren't so check your states legislation regarding removal works.

I’m not interested in arguments regarding the poor practices of council/private tips and how they simply run over it with the excavator ….. If you are concerned with such practices let someone who can do something know (i.e call the local council/epa/worksafe/department of health). After all if you’ve seen such things first hand do you remember which way the wind was blowing?

http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/phd/environmental/downloads/asbestos_home2003.pdf

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Asbestos_in_the_home

[silentC]

Hey Eastie, sounds like you bought my old house ;)

But seriously, I worked for a builder a few years ago who didn't believe in paying someone to take his rubbish away, so he got us to pile it all up in strategically placed mounds, then dumped a load of pine bark on top and called the mounds garden beds. I remember at one point having to remove a paint tin so that I could plant a native shrub.

He didn't even bother burying it, so I suppose you should think yourself lucky the previous owner went to that much trouble.

I wonder how much fibro is buried in backyards. I was demolishing a slab in my backyard in Sydney and I'd hired a skip to take away the rubble. We took out a bit of top soil with a bobcat as well. When the guy came to pick the skip up, he spotted a 2" square piece of fibro in the soil. I got a phone call from the wife telling me that the driver had refused to take the skip because it was "full of fibro", had called his boss on the 2-way and the boss had said "dump it in their driveway". I rang and convinced them it was unintentional and got them to leave it there for another day. I spent the afternoon sifting through it. I found 19 pieces of fibro - not exactly full.

They told me that they have so many people trying to sneak fibro out in their skips that they have adopted a "shoot first" mentality about it. The thing is, if they turn up at a tip with fill or top soil that has fibro in it, they will be banned from using the tip, which is a problem when you rely on access to a tip to make your living. They also told me that the contents of all their skips are sorted by hand just in case any fibro has snuck through.

[jackiew]

I had two bits of fibro tested recently ... the first sample was free as I was just a householder not a business but they had to charge for the second sample ( about $20).

Both samples turned out to contain asbestos but now I know and can take appropriate precautions/engage contractors to get it disposed of.

Its a small price to pay for certainty of what you're dealing with.

[journeyman Mick]

I use this simple test for checking if fibro cement has asbestos in it. If it has I tell the builder or owner that it's goodbye from me.:D
break a piece off and crumble an edge, if you look closely you will see small fibres (like little hairs), using a lighter, give them a really good singe. If they burn they're cellulose fibres, if they don't it's asbestos:mad:.

Mick

[bitingmidge]

Lost my chippie brother-in-law at age 42 to Mesothelioma (asbestos-caused lung cancer) which has to be the toughest kind of wake-up call.

There was a time when we thought it was safe because the little furry bits had been encapsulated, and the guys used to save time by cutting it with a circular saw. So much dust on them they looked like snowmen (shudder!). Some payed a big price.

Mick has the right idea!

On a lighter note, on a renovation job a few years ago the decontamination guys removed a "super six" asbestos sheet roof from a house, and stacked the sheeting (wet) on the footpath for collection the next day set up under a garden sprinkler.

Day dawned and the whole lot had been knocked off, saving my client a few thousand dollars in tip fees. No we never did get around to calling the boys in blue, just hope the thieves weren't making a cubby house for their kids.

Cheers,

P

[davo453]

Heard a story a few years ago, were someone bought a small acreage south of Perth, a really nice block apparently with a long driveway (approx 300 mtrs) leading to a level site for construction of the house.

The site was survey by the builder and latter visited by the site supervisor. He noticed something odd about the driveway and took a sample for testing, it was asbestos.

The seller of the land had apparently used crushed building rubble for the driveway, that had contained asbestos. The builder refused to start work until the whole lot was professionally removed and a replacement access track constructed.

Not sure what the purchaser did but I guess he would have had a few words with the seller. Wish I knew the end of the story really :)

Older parts of suburban Perth are full of thousands of kilometres of asbestos super six fencing and many older commercial buildings still have asbestos roofs in various stages of decay, a long term time bomb I guess.

Dave

[dzcook]

will try the test on the old hse as have been wondering how i could test it myself

what about age ? i mean if the hse is 60 yrs old is it a certainy to have asbestos in the walls or did they make sheet without it in the ' old ' days ? and when did fibro have it removed ? the 60s or when ?

just interested as later on want to have all the old stuff removed but if the newer sheets 10 yrs or so are ok then will leave them can notice a real difference in the appearence the texture etc is very different

thks david

[journeyman Mick]

David,
I'm not sure exactly when they ceased using asbestos in fbro sheeting altogether, I have a feeling it was the late 70s early 80s as that's when I remember seeing asbestos free stickers on the backs of sheets.

Mick

[jackiew]

David,

I wouldn't rely on the date that something has been installed in the house to decide whether it has asbestos in it or not .... who knows where any sheets came from or how long they had been sat in someones store-room.

I've got a bird aviary that doesn't look too old in my garden but the sheeting its made of contains asbestos. I'm probably going to bite the bullet with the cost and get someone in to remove it and also some of the cladding that the previous owner put over the weatherboards of the house ... In victoria you can get access to a list of registered asbestos removalists ... presume this would be the case elsewhere in Australia.

[jane99]

On the weekend realised that the cement sheeting which has been used on the top 1/3 of the house instead of weatherboards was probably asbestos. Our carpenter didn't care, and actually another carpenter who came by didn't care either. I was worried thinking that we had to get a licenced person in to remove it pronto, which of course is the safest method, but when I checked the EPA website you don't have to do this. There are regulations re. asbestos in the workplace, and regulations for asbestos removalists to follow, but domestically you can do it yourself. They have a document on how to safely remove it (for us, wet it, don't break it, double wrap it in thick plastic). I then rang Geelong tip and Chemsal in Laverton re. disposal. A trailer load of asbestos dumped at Geelong tip costs $20, and Chemsal charge 40c per kilo.

[ozwinner]

Do they still put asbestos in car brakes?

Just as a matter of interest I have a specimen blue asbestos from WA, I collect gems and minerals, also the gemstone Tigers Eye is a form of asbestos. ( which has since changed over time )
Cheers, Al

[davo453]

Am pretty sure they no longer put asbestos in car brakes, my local auto shop was selling off all the old asbestos linings cheap at the end of last year.

[journeyman Mick]

Asbestos brake pads and linings are no longer allowed to be fitted since late last year (I have a mate who works in auto brakes). Of course there are still vehicles that have them fitted but they must be replaced (eventually) with non asbestos linings. In Qld you must be licensed to remove certain types of asbestos products and for removal over certain quantities. I've never bothered to find out as I won't touch the stuff.

Mick

[ChrisH]

In 1978 I had a part time job after school at the local Mitre 10.

We were still selling AC sheet with asbestos warning stickers on it. So I'd guess it was still being installed by 1980...
Chris.

[silentC]

My uncle was the building maintenance manager in a power station in East Gippsland Vic. He looked after offices and utility buildings and was not involved with the power station proper. When they finally admitted that there was a problem with asbestos, they made him the asbestos safety officer.

Power stations were the worst place to work because they used asbestos-based lagging to insulate pipes and it was all over the place. People used to come home from work covered from head to toe in white powder and hug their wives and children. A few of the people who worked at that plant are dead now

My uncle told me that flat fibro sheet has very little asbestos in it and you have to be very unlucky to inhale a fibre from it. Not that it's not possible, just highly unlikely - unless you are cutting it with power tools or breaking it up. While it's stuck to the walls of your house and undisturbed, it's not dangerous. I sometimes wonder about the dust thats lying around in the ceiling and in the wall cavities though and what might be in it.

The stuff that does contain a heap of it is anything that has a shape, like the Super 6 corrugated roofing, gutters, flashings etc. That apparently has a very high level of asbestos fibre in it due to the difficulty of getting it to hold it's shape.

The point is don't panic if your house is clad with fibro. It's only really going to be a problem if you want to remove it for some reason.

[jackiew]

the carpenter who is going to replace a window for me doesn't seem concerned about the asbestos sheet on my house either. The guy that did the analysis said don't worry about it unless it starts crumbling.

and silent c one of the things that is lurking in the roof space is lead ... this is a link which mentions it in passing but a bit of a search reveals a heap more :-
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/trek/4wd/lead3.htm

There are actually people who will go up in your roof space ( through the roof tiles/sheet ) and vacuum it out.

If you have, as I do a house with 40 year old carpet in it then that is probably full of the stuff too, partly from them rubbing down paintwork in the past and partly from cars. If I had small kids I'd be ripping the carpet out, at the moment at least its inuslation :-).

[silentC]

One of the first things we did in the house we live in now was to rip out all of the carpets. We have a 2 and a 4 year old ;)

I lived in a house on a major road in southern Sydney for a couple of years. The house was always full of dust. You could clean the place from top to bottom and within a week it would be covered again. The dust was almost black - no prizes for guessing where it was coming from.

[davo453]

When a little lad aged 12 (28 years ago !!) I took great delight in playing with molten lead, pouring it into home made sinker molds, casting it into toy soldiers and burning myself (still have a scar).

As a result I often wonder what my lead levels are. We also lived near a busy road, so guess this explains why I keep making fortunes and then loosing them………… also why my head feels so heavy at times :D

Cheers

Dave

[ozwinner]

Originally posted by davo453
so guess this explains why I keep making fortunes and then loosing them………… also why my head feels so heavy at times :D

Cheers

Dave

Are you Alan Bond? :eek: :eek:

[davo453]

would explain a thing or two wouldn't it :)

[capedcrusader]

I was looking at buying 2nd hand roof framing timber from a wrecker (advertised in the trading post) who fortunately made the mistake of admitting that the roofing covering hed just removed was asbestos but that it would be OK because it had rained lightly overnight.

[Snoopy]

Spoke to my local skip guy the other day who told me he would be happy to take asbestos away at around (I think) $300 for 2 cubic metre bin. The material has to be wetted down and completely wrapped in plastic sheeting. This sounds like a really good deal to me and he even told me the tip that he takes it to. I checked up and that tip does take asbestos. Does this sound on the up and up to you guys? Should I even care?

[Gumpy]

Just bought a house with AC sheeting on the roof, it will come off soon. I spoke to Reeds in Melbourne about the cost of taking away 100m2 and it would be $1000 so now all I have to do is remove it.

Now being the home owner and not employing anyone to remove it for me then the 10m2 regulation does not apply, it does not become a workplace.

All I need to do is satisfy the council and workcover of correct removal procedures if they front while the job is being done and of course get sweet with the neighbours because they are the ones that would dob me in I suppose.


Daniel

[Christopha]

When I lived in WA we used to visit Witenoom gorge and throw the stuff at one another, when an apprentice we used to cut the stuff with power saws all the time, at least 3 times per week and when I first came to live in the country I used to roof piggeries with it.... all the time cutting the corner laps with an angle grinder. As a lad I worked for a while in a brake service, I used to go home black as ink every night covered in the muck. A young woman employee of my wifes' had her mother-in-law die 2 years ago from asbestos lungs and she had only helped put a new ceiling in a bathroom. I have had a number of x-rays and have never shown anything, I feel like I could have been just a tad lucky!!! :eek:

edited to ficks the speling

[soundman]

now for something realy scarry. :eek:

The hardest asbestos containing items to replace an one of the last accepted uses of asbestos was the filiters used to filter beer.

I'm not sure when they finaly found a replacement but this new chill filtering process seems to be part of the answer.

I'm not a beer drinker! :)

[Markw]

In the electrical supply industry we are only just starting to come to terms with the enormous amounts of asbestos which has been installed. From the bonded compound which sits in the customer meter board to the extensive use in substations for insulation of both electric arc heat (arc chutes) to electric insulation of high voltage cable ends which is normally friable asbestos bandage. Very dangerous.

To this industry asbestos was the wonder product

Not no more :eek:

[mandyther]

Asbestos was all over by 1985

[some_one]

Actually Asbestos was all over the place by 1985. I too have a house clad with Asbestos. And as I was suggested here before if you do not disturb it you will not get disturbed. But I have trees planted which ocassionally rub againt the wall, will that cause the asbestos to fall into the soil below and if yes will get mixed wiht the soil and be burried or is it lighter and can be blown away by wind?

[billbeee]

Before I got a removal license we used to do it like in the attached photo.
Makes me cringe every time I see it. This on a government contract in 1973, and get this, at Darwin hospital.
We were a dumping ground for asbestos products in the 80's. What they couldn.t sell down south we got in the north.
Cheers
Bill

[pharmaboy2]

Actually Asbestos was all over the place by 1985. I too have a house clad with Asbestos. And as I was suggested here before if you do not disturb it you will not get disturbed. But I have trees planted which ocassionally rub againt the wall, will that cause the asbestos to fall into the soil below and if yes will get mixed wiht the soil and be burried or is it lighter and can be blown away by wind?

just did a quick search - flat asbestos containing sheet (fibro sheet) was banned in NSW and SA in 1982 (didnt find for other states) and all australian production of flat sheet was discontinued in 1983. (court documents)

Some super 6 type roofing was still going untill 1985 - presumably just for repair of existing roofs). The constant use of "mid eighties" in the guidelines for asbestos, seems to be about covering their ????, as its possible that some builder bought sheeting in 1981-82 and kept it in his shed for 3 or 4 yrs, and it also includes super 6 that way.

[BeeMay]

SilentC,
I was told the same thing.I bought a house in Qld clad in fibro.It was unpainted for 50years.to get the loan for the house I had to agree in writing to paint it within 3 months of purchase.I rang the builders advisory up there as I wanted to remove the internal firbro walls as there was great VJ's underneath. Basically told to wet it, don't use power tools on it, use a mask,when handling it or banging a nail in etc.Be careful,treat it as with caution, the precautions were overkill for a reason,to basically scare people into doing the right thing.As for disposal,that was a bit harder.Had to wrap it in plastic and notify the tip we were bringing it in(so they could dig a hole?)and pay $20 a load instead of $4 tthat it normally was for a load.My husband was very careful with it,and had us all out of the house while he handled it,wearing overalls,mask ,gloves etc.........
but it is scary when you have people telling yuou,"it only takes one fibre............."

cheers
Bee

[Bluegum]

I helped a mate do some demolition work on a house he was renovating a couple of years back. The first thing he did was take to the fibro with a claw hammer and smash it of the outside walls. He then dumped it into a corner in the back yard. It was a breezy ort of day and when I asked him where his hose was to wet it down he couldn't see the point of it. I pointed out that his neighbors windows were open and there was dust swirling around in the wind. I spent most of the day hosing down this pile of fibro that he dumped there and then lef there for another week before he got the skip into get rid of it. Needless to say I had nothing more to do with this job.

[Gooner]

Just yesterday I was in my small ensuite tearing down the shower, tiling, and cement sheeting under the tiles. In the middle of *ripping* the cement sheeting off the walls (with no respirator) I stopped after about 1 hour and thought, "Crap, this stuff could be asbestos".

I have tried the "burn test" as as far as I can see some of the small fibres do in fact burn. I am still not convinced.

I will try the place in Melbourne that tests for asbestos for free.

I believe the house was built in the late 70's. I would think the cemter sheeting has been there since that time.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Just yesterday I was in my small ensuite tearing down the shower, tiling, and cement sheeting under the tiles. In the middle of *ripping* the cement sheeting off the walls (with no respirator) I stopped after about 1 hour and thought, "Crap, this stuff could be asbestos".

I have tried the "burn test" as as far as I can see some of the small fibres do in fact burn. I am still not convinced.

I will try the place in Melbourne that tests for asbestos for free.

I believe the house was built in the late 70's. I would think the cemter sheeting has been there since that time.



Geeze mate ... I don't mean to be rude but how much education does it take for you to take notice!

Unless it was placed on the walls after about 1985 its got asbestos in it.
Between then and 1989 you can still have traces of asbestos because Hardies didn't overhaul their production facilities.

BTW we are now seeing the peak of asbestos related claims from workers within the industry, the insurers are now bracing themselves for the next wave of claims......the home renovaters.

So for Christ sake be careful when you handle fibro or any other FRC sheeting! the later stuff has the date stamped on the back.

[nev25]

Someone told me a while ago that Lamipanel (that was installed in most bathrooms a while ago) contains asbestos
Anyone know anything about this?

[journeyman Mick]

Someone told me a while ago that Lamipanel (that was installed in most bathrooms a while ago) contains asbestos
Anyone know anything about this?


Not AFAIK, it's basically just a thicker version of benchtop laminates, consisting of layers of paper with resin bonded at high pressure and heat. Does contain a fair bit of formaldehyde though.

Mick

[Gooner]

Just yesterday I was in my small ensuite tearing down the shower, tiling, and cement sheeting under the tiles. In the middle of *ripping* the cement sheeting off the walls (with no respirator) I stopped after about 1 hour and thought, "Crap, this stuff could be asbestos".

I have tried the "burn test" as as far as I can see some of the small fibres do in fact burn. I am still not convinced.

I will try the place in Melbourne that tests for asbestos for free.

I believe the house was built in the late 70's. I would think the cemter sheeting has been there since that time.

Went to "Noel and Associates" in Box Hill Melbourne to have two samples from the walls and floor to be tested. (Its a free service for a verbal result for domestic use). Turns out it is all asbestos.

Therefore, it seems that if built during or before early 80's, assume asbestos.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Therefore, it seems that if built during or before early 80's, assume asbestos.


Now lets be perfectly clear on this.


Any fibre cement product installed prior to 1989 should be considered to contain asbestos and handled in acordance with your local state workcover requirements.


To make it idiot proof think of the cut off date as 1990.

[Gooner]

Yesterday I went into my ensuite and removed about 5 square meters worth of asbestos sheeting from the walls and floors. I tried my best to take it off in sheets, but in the end the sheets were too big to transport so I broke them down into smaller pieces. Of course I wore overalls, hat and respirator. (I didn't wear gloves... I assume there is no risk in not wearing gloves?) The ensuite is a good room to do this because I can lock myself in there to do the job.

Today I tried to dispose of the stuff. I am really annoyed at the difficulty I had disposing of the stuff. First I rang my local council. They gave me zero help or information. Next, I rang Sustainability Victoria and the EPA. It seems like there are only two places in Melbourne you can get rid of asbestos. Epping (Outer North) and Laverton (Outer West). I live in the outer eastern suburbs, therefore I would have to make a 100km trip and on top of that pay $60 to dispose of a few sheets of asbestos.

In the end I rang up an asbestos remover contractor, drove the stuff to his workplace and handed a boot-load of asbestos to him for $100 cash.

It would have been really easy to go up to my local waste transfer station, pay $12 and dump the lot there, but obviously I want to do the right thing. However, considering the difficulty and cost of disposing of the stuff, I would assume many people would simply dump it at the local tip rather than drive across town and pay $60.

I am actually quite suprised about this situation. I thought that the local council would provide *some* level of service to dispose of asbestos. I am thinking of writing a letter to our local member.....

[hansp77]

Gooner, here is a list of places you can dispose of Asbestos...
http://www.ohsrep.org.au/index.cfm?section=11&Category=47&viewmode=content&contentid=33

I've used the Bulla rd one. Had to book it in, drive it out, all double wrapped, etc.
Frankly, I think it is a pretty good idea to keep the amount of places down where this stuff is going to be buried. It would be good though if there was some sort of council service (subsidised or at least non-profit) to help us get rid of this problem.

[pharmaboy2]

spot on gooner - as a result of the regs, asbestos sheet mostly ends up in the std waste bins at the dump or in wheely bins. I, like you, would happily treat it properly, but they make you jump through so many hoops, the end result is more danger to more poeople not less.

On a similar not our local dump used to be free fro householders with a trailer load, then it was $5-00 or something - in the last 10 years its gone to $80 a tonne - I'm also a mountain biker and can tell you that the amount of rubbish dumped in the bush tracks follows that policy perfectly!

[Bleedin Thumb]

[quote=Gooner;644591] I broke them down into smaller pieces. Of course I wore overalls, hat and respirator. (I didn't wear gloves... I assume there is no risk in not wearing gloves?) The ensuite is a good room to do this because I can lock myself in there to do the job.

Gooner did you actually do any research into the safe handling of asbestos - (besides this thread) before you proceeded.

The dust that was in your en suite is now spread through out your home -

I don't want to preach but you should be more careful.

[Gooner]

Gooner did you actually do any research into the safe handling of asbestos - (besides this thread) before you proceeded.

The dust that was in your en suite is now spread through out your home -

I don't want to preach but you should be more careful.

How so? I "locked" myself in the room and wrapped all the asbestos in plastic within the room. I stored the plastic in a little cupboard inside the room as to minimize the amount of dust on it prior to use. I used a spray bottle to wet down all the asbestos. I used a wet rag on all surfaces after I finished taking out all the asbestos. I even took all my clothes off within the room and soaked everything immediately and then went straight into the shower.

What have I done wrong??

I did read the recommended safety regulations.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Sorry Gooner It sounds as though you have it covered, good stuff.:2tsup: