Hard Shellac coverage +

[Ben from Vic.]

I'm in the process of making a work bench and am considering using Hard Shellac to finish it, that or a Danish Oil followed by Haymes poly, my questions are....

What sort of coverage do you get from 500ml of HS?

Should I thin the HS (I'll be rubbing it on)?
If yes, how much?

How many coats are needed for a utility surface?

If Danish oil goes mostly into the timber and poly sits on top, where does HS fit in?


There that should do it for now.:)
I might even post some pics if people are interested.

Ben.

[andrewsd]

Ben, I don't think I would be using shellac on a work bench. Even a hard shellac will give you a very easily damaged surface. I would be inclined to either wax it, or oil and wax it, or just oil it. If you want a shiny surface for some reason, polyurethane would be a better bet than shellac, in my humble opinion.

[Ben from Vic.]

Thanks Andrew, I'll keep that in mind. I havn't used the Hard Shellac before so I havn't got any experiance with it's durability.
While searching the subject I read a post by Neil where he said that "There are tables in restaurants all over Melbourne now that are finished with our Hard Shellac" (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=630207&postcount=9), suggesting that it can take quite a beating.

I worked out over night that I have a surface area of about 12sq meters to cover, and while I'm happy to stretch to two bottles of the stuff that still only totals 1 ltr and may be best saved for a more deserving preject. Which means in the end I may go with poly over danish (mmmm danish). I'll wait and see how the replys average out.

Ben.

[andrewsd]

I haven't used the Ubeaut hard shellac and defer completely to Neil's opinion of its appropriateness for the job. I would be interested to know how it goes, so please let me know how it stands up, if you remember.

Thanks.

[ubeaut]

G;day Been - Sorry I didn't get to this earlier but was off line for most of the day yesterday thanks to our ISP,

Everything with Hard Shellac (as with all shellacs) depends on the application process, however HS you need to at least thin 50/50 with meth before beginning. If you're rubbing )(as in french polish) there's enough to polish a couple of board room tables as it is thinned much more with shellac for multiple coats.

If you're brushing it then there should be plenty for your bench top, the same with spraying. However because manufacturers have no control over what an end user will do, how porous the timber is, how well the surface has been prepered, temperature at time of application and a whole heap of other stuff that'll affect the use, it's really hard to give a definitive answer.

In most instances I'd thin up to 4 parts metho to 1 of HS and even more.

HOWEVER. For a work bench I would probably prefer to use maybe an oil and finish it off with Traditional Wax a few weeks later, which cives good slip and helps with easier removal glue spills and drips, etc.

My all time favourite is to cover the bench top with tempered masonite then Use a couple of coats of Traditional Wax.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :U

[Ben from Vic.]

Thanks Neil, I'd been giving a bit of extra thought to an oil finish (spured on by Andrews posts), particularly from the ease of repair/maintinance angle. Not having a film finish to maintain seems like the way to go, but I would like a bit of a sheen to the surface, without hours of hard polishing, eg. flanel on brick (I've been reading my handbook :wink:)

Option 1, Howards Orange Tung Oil, EEE cream on swansdown mop, perhaps followed by Liberon Black Bison paste wax (the last two because thats what I already have).
Does anyone know if Liberon Black Bison wax has bees wax in it?

Option 2, Maloof/Danish oil mix with two parts oil to one part poly, perhaps again followed by EEE cream on swansdown mop, Liberon Black Bison paste wax.

I'm after something that does build up just a little and can be brought to a mild sheen. I'm seriously leaning towards option 1, after seeing this post by NewLou (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=444179&postcount=25).

Timbers are Oregon, typical KD hardwood (Tas Oak, Vic Ash, Etc) and ply.



Neil, your tips on the use of hard shellac will come in handy, just at a latter date.:-

[Ben from Vic.]

While I'm here, my Liberon wax can be quite hard to polish off after aplying (with calico) and leaving for 20 of 30 mins (then buffing off with old jumper), am I doing anytihng wrong?

[rsser]

Think it's made for colder climates than ours Ben.

Try polishing it off much earlier. Play around on some scrap.

Added: ubeaut Trad wax really is much better; Gilly Stephensons Cabinet Makers Wax is also good (harder than Trad Wax but takes more effort to apply). But if you've got the Liberon you might as well master it.

[Ben from Vic.]

Think it's made for colder climates than ours Ben.

Hadn't thought of that rsser, thanks. The tin says leave for 20mins, more if possible, next time i'll give it 10 instead of 40.:-
As you say, i'll stick with it seeing as thats what I have, but when it runs out i'll try something else. I'm happy enough with the job it does meanwhile.

Rang Howards re.Tung Orange oil found that it was 70% tung 30% orange, so far so good, and that one ltr will cover 15sqm, lady on phone says that most of first ltr will be taken on first coat (not done all at once!) but that each coat after that would need about half what the first coat took (due to sealing etc) meaning 4ltrs for the seven coats NewLou used. They sell in 1, 2 and 5 ltrs, with 5 ltrs being 145$ + $20 P&H (no local stockists (I thought i'd seen the ugly bright orange tung in bunnys?)).
I've never done a project this big before, I've already used up most of my new Titebond3 on the big mortise and tennons and ply for the enclosed base and $165 for the finish was a bit of a supprise, due probably to ignorance.:o
All of a sudden home made danish oil is looking better.:D

Does the poly in danish oil form it's own coating on the surface or does it stay mixed with the oil and soak into the timber?


Ben.

[andrewsd]

Feast Watson make a nice product called "Fine Buffing Oil" which would do a lovely job on your bench. Apply it in a circular motion using a rag to really rub the stuff into the grain then buff it off in accordance with the dircetions on the can. You can then use your wax over it to give it a nice luster. I think you will be happy with the results if you go down that path.

[rsser]

Yeah, for a workbench, which is gunna get chopped up, I wouldn't obsess too much about the finish frankly.

A cheap solution (cough) would be to slop on coats of Boiled Linseed Oil. Flood, leave for 5 mins, wipe off, leave for a day, and repeat til it's clear that the grain is filled and the mixture is sitting on top.

An alt., 1/3 oil (eg. raw linseed, soybean or pure tung), 1/3 poly (spirit based), and 1/3 turps (or White Spirits if you want to be fussy).

[Ben from Vic.]

I was thinking that the Orange Tung oil was going to be a low fuss finish...oil on wipe off, oil on wipe off, etc shine up with EEE and mop in drill.... easy. It's the price that put me off.:(

Yeah I think i'll go with a home made poly, oil, optional turps mix.
There seems to be two schools of thought on that one the maloof/danish 2/3rds oil 1/3 poly and the mix your've mentioned rsser oil, poly, turps.
I guess you could say the later is really 50/50 oil, poly thined with turps. The thinning having the effect of easing aplication, would the thining help the finish soak in further?

I've put a bit of work into the bench so far so i'll probably err on the nicer side of things.

Thanks for all the help so far guys, much appreciated.:2tsup:

[rsser]

Ben, I'm no expert.

I use Rustin's DO on most of my turnings and love the way it's easy to use, and pops the grain of most timbers. It's not esp. durable though. Have tried Organoil products and found them to be either a lot of work or to produce matt finishes. Quite like FW Scandanavian Oil and it's more durable than Rustins.

For recipes for home-made oil finishes, check out the Blue Mountains Woodturners' website, and also the Fine WoodWorking website (some articles free). FWW also did a test of oil finishes, which gave a run down on ingredients, and pronounced MiniMax wipe-on poly one of the best.

Best I can tell, an oil finish will have some kind of solvent, some kind of oil, and maybe a synthetic resin. The proportions will vary. The more solvent, the quicker the soaking but the more the coats, etc etc.

But all these distinctions will fade away as you put the marks of honest workmanship on your fine workbench.

[ubeaut]

I'd go with something similar to Ern's mix of 20 raw linseed, 40% poly (turpentine based), 40% mineral turps or as Ern said (White Spirits if you want to be fussy)

Apply as per Maloofs or any similar. Wait a week or too after the finaal application till there's no oil at all teft or felt on the surface then use the EEE. No real need to use a wax for a while. I'de leave the waxing for a few weeks or longer and then only if you really feel you need it.

Cheers - Neil :U

[Ben from Vic.]

After a visit to my local paint store (Paint Right Kyabram), I've found them to be a very well equiped store stocking Haymes and Sceneys (tung oil, linseed oil, 100% IMS). Meaning I can get pure tung oil for ~$15 1ltr, ~$27 for 2ltrs, etc.
I rang Sceneys to find out what the catch was, they said they'd garantee it to be pure tung oil.:2tsup:. So my question is, are there any situations where linseed oil is better than tung oil?
What does the high proportion of turps do?

Still learning.:)

Ben.

[rsser]

IIRC there is a difference between pure and raw tung oil. And it would surprise me if $15 could buy you a litre of the real stuff, presumably the raw given the price you were quoted, and in any case the real stuff goes off fast once the tin is opened.

But go for it and see how it comes up.

As I said, just my 2c worth.

[Ben from Vic.]

Right you are Ern, and due to my unlearnedness I got a little mixed up. The people at the paint shop said most people who bought the tung oil also bought a drier (Terebine I think) to mix with it, making the tung oil a "raw" not "pure" if the article in AWR No56 is correct.
Perhaps not having driers added could knock a few dollars off the price.
When I rang Sceynes they also said that compared to there wholesale price Paintright was offering it at a good price.

Sceynes (of Sunshine, Vic, number is in yellow pages) also offerd to send the oil to me direct if required.


Young Grasshopper Ben.

[rsser]

Terebine used to be added to Raw Linseed way back when to help it dry; haven't heard much about it since.

Yeah, Sceneys produce a useful range of stuff for the finisher.

This is the only Oz source I know of for Pure Tung: http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/product/products/CONSUMABLE/OILS-RUBBING/C2891.html

... but to say again, in a thread on this some time ago the comment was made that it goes off quickly once opened, so buy in small quantities if this is the way you want to go.

[Ben from Vic.]

... but to say again, in a thread on this some time ago the comment was made that it goes off quickly once opened, so buy in small quantities if this is the way you want to go.

Will do Ern, good to know before I go out and buy ltrs of the stuff.:2tsup:

While looking around I've found that you can also get tung oil from Howards (http://www.howardproducts.com.au/products/tung_oil.htm) for about $33 ltr and Timbecon (http://www.timbecon.com.au/products/oils-and-waxes-395_0.aspx).

Would I be right in assuming that varying the amount of poly in the mix helps the coats build, gives more protection and perhaps helps with the gloss?
Just trying to understand the different ratios.:-

Ben.

[rsser]

Good finds Ben.

Re your question, I'd guess so. You'd get a quicker build and more gloss. Wouldn't say 'more protection' in every case ... yes to liquids but not really to scratches. You'll have seen how easily a poly only coated surface scratches, and can't be repaired. (That said, I used it over shellac on a Queen Anne dining table cos the kids were young, redid it completely once after 10 years and now it needs it again about another decade on. If it weren't for those flowing legs I'd happily strip it all back and apply Rustins DO now that the kids are grown up.)

Another way of getting some grain filling is to wet sand with an oil finish. See the Organoil website - there are prob instructions there, not that I'm recommending their products btw; been there, done that.

[rsser]

Just to add, and this is on turnings - never used an oil finish on furniture - my experience with commercial oil finishes is this:

Organoil Hard Burnishing oil: I was taught to use this but over time both my teacher and I gave up on it. Uses a wet-sanding process, and will take wax over the top buffed up (in our case, with a lambswool bonnet on a 5" rubber disc in a drill). Prob: it would raise the grain after sitting for a few weeks. Other forum members have posted that they did not get this.

Rustins DO: penetrates nicely, will like other oil finishes on the right timber really 'pop' the figure. Does not build to a gloss if instructions are followed but buffing and/or wax + buffing will bring a higher shine. Downsides: goes off in the can, and is not particularly durable. On a fruit platter, there were 3 stains left after a year or so of use. My guess is the fruit was citrus.

Scandinavian Oil by Feast Watson: haven't really given this a lot of use; seems to have a higher proportion of resins than the others, and I've just resanded the fruit platter and used this product instead; 3 coats yielded a high build and fairly high gloss (despite the stuff being labelled matt finish) but the platter is Blackwood which at a guess tends to gloss more than other timbers, other things being equal.

Organoil DO: fairly boring matt finish. Upside is that it's not sposed to go off in the can. Nice smell too.

Well that's my brain dump. 4c worth today ;-}

Woops, there's more :- ... IMO oil finishes don't work too well on light coloured timbers; they darken them too much, which when added to the usual darkening that UV does can produce a colour that is too far from the original. For mid and dark coloured timbers with a bit of figure, they can enrich the colour nicely and increase the contrast.

[Ben from Vic.]

Thanks again Ern, all good useful information which is always welcome.

I've used Hard Burnishing Organ oil before and still have the deep but dull surface to show for it. But to be fair I was pretty green and didn't follow the instructions. Skipped the 'hard burnishing' bit with predictable results.

Have also used Rustins danish oil on this hall table (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6727&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) and was very impressed with the easy of use and the results. I used to live 5 mins from a supplier, but he and I both moved. I like trying something different, but results much like the Rustins would be great. Perhaps with a little more gloss, but as you say that can also be improved after.

As for the colour, the Sceneys tung oil is actualy an orange colour and so shouldn't darken as much as linseed oil does. Besides I don't mind if the Tas Oak darkens a bit.

Ben.

[rsser]

Wow, hall table is a lovely bit of work. Great combo of timbers.

[Ben from Vic.]

Thanks for that Ern, I'm a little pleased with it too.:)

Thought I'd come back and update on my efforts/learnings.

Went and got some Timbermate to fill a few cracks, there directions for colour matching were to match the colour of the filler to the timber when the filler is wet as it will dry to a lighter colour then go back to the wet colour when you finish it. What they don't say is that you should match the wet filler to wet (or finished) timber. I matched the wet filler to dry timber and ended with a minor colour miss match.

Had a little more learning to do when it came time to mix the poly/tung/terps mix.
I figured the best order of adding ingredients was (satin) poly first cause I'd have to dip the measuring cup into the tin as I know what a mess it makes trying to pour from a paint tin, followed by tung, followed by turps so it can clean the last two out of the cup.:doh:
As soon as I poured the tung into the poly covered cup the leftover poly started to go a bit funny, but I didn't think much of it, put the lid on the container and went and had lunch. Came back and found I had a nice layer of clear goo sitting on the bottom of the container. After much stiring followed by a bit of shaking with only minor improvement I got on the phone and was given the good advise that the good was most likely to be the additive that makes a gloss into a satin (didn't realise they added cloudyness to a gloss to make it satin!), and that I'd probably be OK if I let it settle and poured the ok looking mix off the top and used that. Oh and next time try adding the poly to the tung/terps.
Went back to the shed and found that the mix had mostly fixed it's self (!) and decided to use it as is. Five days and four more coats later and everything is looking quite nice.:)
For the second thicker mixture I added the ingredients in the advised order and the poly whilst stiring and this time no curdling.:2tsup:


Getting there.

Now for a quick question, as I'm doing quite a big surface the old hand towel I'm using to wipe the mixture off with has gone a bit crusty and isn't absorbing much, what do other members do at this point, chuck out the towel, or do you have a way of cleaning them?
I'm thinking the washing machine is not a good idea.

Ben.

[rsser]

Thanks for that. Something to file away.

As to your question ... fresh rags always. Old or undyed flannel is my pref for turnings.

Can hear Neil's voice over my shoulder .. ;-}

[Ben from Vic.]

... but to say again, in a thread on this some time ago the comment was made that it goes off quickly once opened, so buy in small quantities if this is the way you want to go.

I can now report that Raw Tung oil (no driers or any other additives) will last at least 3 months after opening, even over a record breaking hot summer. Sceneys said it would last ages if kept out of the sun. But the stuff I mixed with poly and turps went funny in under half the time. The mix was stored in 1kg square plastic honey buckets that may not have been as air tight as the screw top bottle the Tung oil was in.

Ben.