Lets hear your technique and see your results

[garfield]

G’day everyone,

I hope people don’t mind this thread being started and excuse me if it’s been done before. I’d like to get a thread going that can help people like me who have no idea when it comes to finishing your work. I’ve just posted a thread recently in this forum regarding finishing and received some good advice and realised that I shouldn’t use power sanders as the scuff’s and scratches will and do show up when I’ve stained the wood unfortunately I found this out the hard way.... AGAIN!!. I have been using my belt sander to get the joins smoothed down after joining pieces together with my biscuit joiner, somehow I always end up with a height variance after I glue and join the two pieces together.

Anyhow I beg please all you experienced woodworkers out there, can you please pass on your secret and your techniques and methods from start to finish for getting great results in your finish. I’m only a novice but have made a couple of pieces of furniture up and tried a few different ways of applying a finish. I’ve tried the stain and varnish all in one applied with a brush, I’ve tried rubbing stain followed by spraying thinned down lacquer and now I’ve tried stain followed by wipe on poly. My own personal preference would have to be spraying on a lacquer thinned down. Not only for the fact I think it covers a lot more even, but it seems heaps easier to apply and it’s easier to apply to the small areas and it beats wiping it on especially where there’s not much room for your hand to apply the wipe on poly i.e. like between shelves. I found that I didn’t like the all in one approach and I certainly don’t like applying it – or even lacquer with a brush as no matter how much care you take you end up with brush marks. When I first tried spraying a lacquer through my compressor and spray gun I thought that was crap as I had some nice shiny parts on the job but had dry rough looking parts on it as well. But soon discovered through this forum that I’d stuffed up because I was given some bad advice from a guy at Bunning’s as he told me to thin it down with turps. Once I had used thinners and thinned it more than 10% I found it flowed through the gun beautifully and left a nice finish. So then I tried the wipe on poly as I found that spraying on the lacquer left the wood looking too shiny. I wanted to achieve a mat type finish – similar to what you see when you look at furniture in the shops, and that’s how I ended up on the wipe on poly.

So concluding, I’d love to hear what you apply to achieve a certain finish/look and then how you apply it and what product you use. If anyone can add some pics with your post that would be great as you get to show off your work, as well as back up your method as being a winner! I love appreciating others work and talent as well so please pass on your pics.

Thanks all for taking the time to read this post and for your help and advice,
Geoff

[garfield]

It seems no one is really interested - or they want to hang onto their secrets.

[Kym]

It could be that the question is too broad.....And its only been a day.
Try a specific question about a specific item you have made and post a pic.

Just an opinion, probably worth what you paid for it.

Cheers
Kym



It seems no one is really interested - or they want to hang onto their secrets.

[RufflyRustic]

Never fear Garfield :)

Sanding
I have learnt the hard way, that if you do not prepare the timber for the finish you will not end up with the finish you want.
1. Always sand with the grain. If the occasion warrants sanding against the grain, make sure you sand with the grain afterwards to remove those sanding marks.
2. Go through each grit level until you get to the desired smoothness
3. If you are using sandpaper, use it like there is no tomorrow. Stop frequently and clear the sawdust off the sandpaper and piece of timber, better yet, set up a sanding station that draws/extracts the dust away from what you are working on.
4. If sanding end grain that is going to be exposed, sand it to a higher grit than the rest of the piece as this will help even out the colour of the finished piece. End grain takes up more of the finish and will end up darker than the rest of the piece.
5. Sand away every single mark. Leaving an obvious line or mark or whatever on the timber will haunt you when you look at the finished project, especially when the finish highlights such imperfections.


Final sealing/sanding step before the finishing starts:
6. Sanding Sealer - fantastic stuff, get some, make some, use it. You'd be surprised how helpful it is. My personal favourite is UBeaut's sanding sealer, or I make my own from as close to 100% metho as i can get and any old UBeaut White Shellac I have left - (dewaxed shellac).
7. Tack cloths - not everyone's preference, but i find them very useful for not only cleaning away dust from the last denib sanding just before the finish is applied.
8. If you don't like tack cloths, get a good very soft brush and a vacuum cleaner and brush/suck away any remaining dust before applying the finish.
9. Grain filling - learn how to do this, it's not hard at all and it is extremely useful for open grained timber.
10. Staining - water-based dyes (yep, UBeaut Water Dyes are my choice) under shellac are fantastic and sooooooo easy to use. (just don't forget to wear gloves:doh:) The staining rule of thumb is to never use the same type of stain with the finish, eg spirit-based stain followed by a spirit-based finish. I find it easier to remember to simply coat any stain with one or two coats of shellac and then apply the finish on top of that. This is my personal preference and what I have learned works well for me and my style of woodworking.

There ya go Garfield, and that's just the prep stuff I've learned.:)

How did I learn it? Practice, making lots and lots of mistakes:D, re-reading UBeaut's Book of Finishing and reading/participating in discussions here.

cheers
Wendy

[Tex B]

Wendy's advice is excellent as usual.

For me, the breakthrough came when i bought a copy of "The Polisher's Handbook", which should be available from the U-Beaut website. Best to read it while you're doing - take it to your workshop and read a paragraph, do what it says, read another, etc.

Tex

[garfield]

Never fear Garfield :)

Sanding
I have learnt the hard way, that if you do not prepare the timber for the finish you will not end up with the finish you want.
1. Always sand with the grain. If the occasion warrants sanding against the grain, make sure you sand with the grain afterwards to remove those sanding marks.
2. Go through each grit level until you get to the desired smoothness
3. If you are using sandpaper, use it like there is no tomorrow. Stop frequently and clear the sawdust off the sandpaper and piece of timber, better yet, set up a sanding station that draws/extracts the dust away from what you are working on.
4. If sanding end grain that is going to be exposed, sand it to a higher grit than the rest of the piece as this will help even out the colour of the finished piece. End grain takes up more of the finish and will end up darker than the rest of the piece.
5. Sand away every single mark. Leaving an obvious line or mark or whatever on the timber will haunt you when you look at the finished project, especially when the finish highlights such imperfections.


Final sealing/sanding step before the finishing starts:
6. Sanding Sealer - fantastic stuff, get some, make some, use it. You'd be surprised how helpful it is. My personal favourite is UBeaut's sanding sealer, or I make my own from as close to 100% metho as i can get and any old UBeaut White Shellac I have left - (dewaxed shellac).
7. Tack cloths - not everyone's preference, but i find them very useful for not only cleaning away dust from the last denib sanding just before the finish is applied.
8. If you don't like tack cloths, get a good very soft brush and a vacuum cleaner and brush/suck away any remaining dust before applying the finish.
9. Grain filling - learn how to do this, it's not hard at all and it is extremely useful for open grained timber.
10. Staining - water-based dyes (yep, UBeaut Water Dyes are my choice) under shellac are fantastic and sooooooo easy to use. (just don't forget to wear gloves:doh:) The staining rule of thumb is to never use the same type of stain with the finish, eg spirit-based stain followed by a spirit-based finish. I find it easier to remember to simply coat any stain with one or two coats of shellac and then apply the finish on top of that. This is my personal preference and what I have learned works well for me and my style of woodworking.

There ya go Garfield, and that's just the prep stuff I've learned.:)

How did I learn it? Practice, making lots and lots of mistakes:D, re-reading UBeaut's Book of Finishing and reading/participating in discussions here.

cheers
Wendy

Thanks Heaps for that Wendy. I know what you mean about imperfections showing up in stain. Here's some pics of my belt sander marks showing up :C

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/garfield071095/DSC_0056.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/garfield071095/DSC_0057.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/garfield071095/DSC_0059.jpg

[garfield]

Wendy's advice is excellent as usual.

For me, the breakthrough came when i bought a copy of "The Polisher's Handbook", which should be available from the U-Beaut website. Best to read it while you're doing - take it to your workshop and read a paragraph, do what it says, read another, etc.

Tex

Thanks Tex. Yeah mate I don't know anything about half these products that I see mentioned in this forum, like shellac and sanding sealer and the like. That's why I started this thread.

[garfield]

Oh, by the way. The pics I have posted are with only one coat of wipe on poly which I read in this forum was the weapon of choice for a lot of people.... i'm not sold on it though.

[Rattrap]

What was suggested to me & i plan to try this weekend if i get time is to build up coats of a gloss wipe on polly then finish with a satin wipe on polly. I'm hoping that it will give me a deep looking top coat but not super shiney.

[garfield]

I'd still like to hear some more and different techniques. I read in this forum one thread where the guy's technique was to spray his 1st coat of lacquer on wait for 10 minutes, whack another coat on, then wait another and add another coat so on and so on.

I think I prefer to spray a lacquer on myself rather than wipe it on. But as I say I'd love to hear more from the experienced guys and gals on their techniques.

[LGS]

M'sieur Le Chat,
My preferred method of finishing involves using Wattyl Scandinavian oil, usually with a wax finish, but any other final treatment would work.
Briefly;
1. Sand workpiece with a ROS from 80 to 400g.
2. Wipe the workpiece clean with mineral turps and allow to dry.
3. Add Scandinavian oil to saturation.
4 Sand and seal oil with 400 to 4000g using a ROS, preferably with a short stroke. (e.g. Festool ETS150/3) Do not remove slurry as you go.
5. Wipe down with a soft cotton cloth.
6. Allow the oil to dry thoroughly (usually 24 to 72hrs) then finish with UBeaut Trad wax, or Wipe on Poly or whatever else you want to use.

Here's some examples.

Regards,

Rob

[RufflyRustic]

Thanks Tex - I have to second what Tex said about the Book of Polishing. My finishing has moved to a whole new level since I invested in it.


A qualification about finishing. There are many ways to finish a piece, there are many finishes available. It can get awfully confusing and overwhelming very quickly. This is why I have limited my finishes to Wipe on Poly and Shellac. I haven't gone with oils yet as I am having too much fun with WoP and Shellac :) I don't have anything against Oil finishes, I simply haven't used them much at all so don't have any experience to draw from.


Preparing Boards with knots.
Again learnt the hard way.:rolleyes: If a project has a knot it in, always seal the entire piece with one or two coats of shellac before applying your chosen finish. The shellac should seal the knot and stop it from 'taking up' the finish, leaving a dull patch. Why apply shellac to the entire piece? to give the piece the same starting point for the finish.

This process also works well for eg pine and cherry, where the timber is renown for splotchy finishes if not sealed first.

cheers
Wendy

[garfield]

M'sieur Le Chat,
My preferred method of finishing involves using Wattyl Scandinavian oil, usually with a wax finish, but any other final treatment would work.
Briefly;
1. Sand workpiece with a ROS from 80 to 400g.
2. Wipe the workpiece clean with mineral turps and allow to dry.
3. Add Scandinavian oil to saturation.
4 Sand and seal oil with 400 to 4000g using a ROS, preferably with a short stroke. (e.g. Festool ETS150/3) Do not remove slurry as you go.
5. Wipe down with a soft cotton cloth.
6. Allow the oil to dry thoroughly (usually 24 to 72hrs) then finish with UBeaut Trad wax, or Wipe on Poly or whatever else you want to use.

Here's some examples.

Regards,

Rob

I love your work Rob, they are some beautiful pieces there mate!

Can you please tell me what "sanding with ROS" means please?

Thanks for the post.

[garfield]

Preparing Boards with knots.
Again learnt the hard way.:rolleyes: If a project has a knot it in, always seal the entire piece with one or two coats of shellac before applying your chosen finish. The shellac should seal the knot and stop it from 'taking up' the finish, leaving a dull patch. Why apply shellac to the entire piece? to give the piece the same starting point for the finish.

So shellac just is more or less a bit of a drink for the wood? It will stop a lot of the soaking of the stain once you go to apply it?

[LGS]

Hi Garfield,

ROS is Random Orbital Sander.

Regards,

Rob

[garfield]

Hi Garfield,

ROS is Random Orbital Sander.

Regards,

Rob

So they are OK to use? It's been suggested to that I shouldn't use any power tools for sanding but rather do it by hand as that is the best method.

[silentC]

My preferred finish is shellac. It is the most amazing stuff and very easy to apply (although I've had a problem or two as witnessed in a recent thread).

Probably the easiest finish I've come across is described in The Polisher's Handbook. I've bastardised it a bit to come up with this:

1. Use a card scraper or hand plane to remove machining marks.
2. Sand through the grits to 400 (I hand sand with a sanding block)
3. Brush on some sanding sealer. UBeaut sells a good one, or you can just mix up a very weak brew of shellac. I think mine is still too heavy. It's the colour of tea but probably straw colour would be better. Leave for 24 hours.
4. Sand from 600 to 800 or 1200.
5. Remove all dust then wipe or brush several coats of shellac (I use a pad) until you get the colour you're after. Make sure you allow it to dry between each coat :o
6. Leave for a couple of days or longer then using 1200 grit wet & dry with soapy water, cut the finish back being careful not to rub through it.
7. Allow to dry then buff with 0000 steel wool.
8. Apply three coats of Traditional Wax, buffing off in between.

Magic!

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=56028&d=1190160338

[LGS]

A good ROS will give an excellent finish to timber. You'll save a lot of time and effort as well. You should have no swirlies left on your workpiece if the ROS is used properly.
The Metabo Duo is another good finishing sander and a lot cheaper than the Festool.

Regards,

Rob

[garfield]

Thanks for the input Silent. And a beautiful piece you have made there :2tsup:

[garfield]

A good ROS will give an excellent finish to timber. You'll save a lot of time and effort as well. You should have no swirlies left on your workpiece if the ROS is used properly.
The Metabo Duo is another good finishing sander and a lot cheaper than the Festool.

Regards,

Rob

So I can power sand instead of sweating all over my piece :U

[Juffy]

So I can power sand instead of sweating all over my piece :U

You have that problem too, eh? :)

I've just acquired a Metabo SXE450 ROS and I swear it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. 400 grit sandpaper and a couple of coats of poly and you can see yourself in the reflection, and that's just on crappy Bunnings pine.

[garfield]

You have that problem too, eh? :)

I've just acquired a Metabo SXE450 ROS and I swear it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. 400 grit sandpaper and a couple of coats of poly and you can see yourself in the reflection, and that's just on crappy Bunnings pine.

Yeah I very much have that problem :C How much did the Metabo cost you?

I have been using a belt sander to attack the really rough stuff and then using my Ryobi rectangular sander (I don't know what is classed as) with usually 80Grit, down to 120Grit then down to 240Grit followed by 320Grit. I gues I stuffed it somehow.

[Juffy]

How much did the Metabo cost you?

No idea, it was a present. :)

[garfield]

But the orbital sander is the go hey? You never hand sand?

[Juffy]

I use the ROS for pre-finish sanding - I'm not confident enough (yet?) to use it between coats. I've seen a few people on here getting their hand smacked for asking "should I use my belt sander or my ROS after the 5th coat of poly?" :)

I'm actually in much the same boat as you - I know very little about finishing other than what I've read on here. But in terms of surface preparation, getting a ROS and some 60/120/240/320/400 grit (might need some 180 as well?) papers for it has given me a massive leap forward in where I'm starting from.

[garfield]

I use the ROS for pre-finish sanding - I'm not confident enough (yet?) to use it between coats. I've seen a few people on here getting their hand smacked for asking "should I use my belt sander or my ROS after the 5th coat of poly?" :)

I'm actually in much the same boat as you - I know very little about finishing other than what I've read on here. But in terms of surface preparation, getting a ROS and some 60/120/240/320/400 grit (might need some 180 as well?) papers for it has given me a massive leap forward in where I'm starting from.

I don't mind using elbow grease for the sanding between coats on the finishing, I just don't like the sound of hand sanding for prep. BUT! if it has to be done that way to get a professional finish then I'm prepared to do it.

[silentC]

That's why I scrape first. It doesn't actually take that long to hand sand if you remove machine marks etc first. I thought about getting an ROS (the Metabo is around the $400 mark) but decided against because you also have to buy the disks and it's a hell of a lot cheaper to buy sheets. I might still get one eventually but I've gotten buy OK without it until now.

[Papa]

It depends on what I am after,, some times I just sand, stain and
finish.

On the boat, I sand with 120 then seal, sand with 180 and varnish,
sand with 180 and varnish, repeat 4 more times.

I never use a belt sander on large areas, just for evening up edges
and joints.

All pre finish sanding is with a ROS. And finish sanding is by hand.

This is the seats for the boat.

One coat sealer, six coats Minwax, read the can,,,:q:q:q

[garfield]

Looks as though I'd better try the hand sanding for the next project then :doh:

I still ain't really hearing how people are applying their clear coat. People are mentioning their brands and the like but not all say whether or not they do it - or prefer it through either wipe on or spraying it on.

[Papa]

Looks as though I'd better try the hand sanding for the next project then :doh:

I still ain't really hearing how people are applying their clear coat. People are mentioning their brands and the like but not all say whether or not they do it - or prefer it through either wipe on or spraying it on.

Cheap'O chip brushes, cleaned first and all the loose stuff pulled out.
Buy them by the case. I keep 1, 2 and 3" on hand at all times.

Some I clean and reuse, some I just trash.

[ajw]

Garfield,

Like you, I used to be frustrated by the kind of finish I'd achieve. After spending hours on a project, I'd try to stain / finish it, and all these "hidden" problems would be revealed.

I've now got a Metabo ROS, and have learned that preparation is the absolute key. With something like the bookcase you showed earlier in this thread, I would sand all the components before assembly. Do as the others have said, starting with 80 or 120 grit, and then methodically working your way up the grits. It doesn't sound obvious, but progressively finer grits gives a different result than starting with 120 and then jumping straight to 400 grit. The first sand will take the longest, as you get rid of any machining and tool marks. Each grit after that is really quite quick.

Once I'm at 400 grit, I apply a sanding sealer. Like others, I now use a diluted shellac, but I've also had success with a very diluted poly. I wipe it on using old t-shirts. I only use a brush to get it into corners where the rag won't reach properly. Wait a minute or two, then wipe it off so that there's no "wet" areas. This sealing layer does a couple of things. First, it raises any fibres and hardens them. This makes it easier to sand them off. Second, it gives an even surface for your next finish to be applied to.

After this sealing layer is dried, I then sand again with 400 grit, lightly. The first time you do this you'll think you're stuffing the surface. It looks like it's coated with fine flour, and is white! Don't panic.

Wipe off the dust, and then you can apply your next layer. I like to use a mixture of linseed oil and poly (50:50), wiped on liberally, left for a couple of minutes, then buffed off with a clean cotton cloth (more t-shirts). No brushes, no brush marks. I've also used shellac, but this requires a bit more skill as I've found it goes tacky and you have to know when to buff it off to get the best result.

Wiping it off might seem to be counter-productive, but it gives you a very thin even coat. You get a good result by applying many thin coats, not one or two thick coats.

You can sand between coats if you want, but this generally isn't needed. Just keep applying layers and wiping off. Allow the layers to dry between coats (overnight). When you're getting to the kind of finish you're happy with, you can then switch to using the EEE wax which I've found gives a really nice smooth feel.

Do yourself a favour and get a board of radiata or whatever you're typically using, and prove to yourself the value of progressive sanding and wipe-on / buff-off finishes. I think you'll be amazed at what you can achieve.

Allan

[garfield]

Garfield,

Like you, I used to be frustrated by the kind of finish I'd achieve. After spending hours on a project, I'd try to stain / finish it, and all these "hidden" problems would be revealed.

I've now got a Metabo ROS, and have learned that preparation is the absolute key. With something like the bookcase you showed earlier in this thread, I would sand all the components before assembly. Do as the others have said, starting with 80 or 120 grit, and then methodically working your way up the grits. It doesn't sound obvious, but progressively finer grits gives a different result than starting with 120 and then jumping straight to 400 grit. The first sand will take the longest, as you get rid of any machining and tool marks. Each grit after that is really quite quick.

Once I'm at 400 grit, I apply a sanding sealer. Like others, I now use a diluted shellac, but I've also had success with a very diluted poly. I wipe it on using old t-shirts. I only use a brush to get it into corners where the rag won't reach properly. Wait a minute or two, then wipe it off so that there's no "wet" areas. This sealing layer does a couple of things. First, it raises any fibres and hardens them. This makes it easier to sand them off. Second, it gives an even surface for your next finish to be applied to.

After this sealing layer is dried, I then sand again with 400 grit, lightly. The first time you do this you'll think you're stuffing the surface. It looks like it's coated with fine flour, and is white! Don't panic.

Wipe off the dust, and then you can apply your next layer. I like to use a mixture of linseed oil and poly (50:50), wiped on liberally, left for a couple of minutes, then buffed off with a clean cotton cloth (more t-shirts). No brushes, no brush marks. I've also used shellac, but this requires a bit more skill as I've found it goes tacky and you have to know when to buff it off to get the best result.

Wiping it off might seem to be counter-productive, but it gives you a very thin even coat. You get a good result by applying many thin coats, not one or two thick coats.

You can sand between coats if you want, but this generally isn't needed. Just keep applying layers and wiping off. Allow the layers to dry between coats (overnight). When you're getting to the kind of finish you're happy with, you can then switch to using the EEE wax which I've found gives a really nice smooth feel.

Do yourself a favour and get a board of radiata or whatever you're typically using, and prove to yourself the value of progressive sanding and wipe-on / buff-off finishes. I think you'll be amazed at what you can achieve.

Allan

Thanks for your input Allan. Did you buy the finishes book mate to learn all this stuff - or just trial and error?

Also mate, with that technique of yours what kind of finish do you get? is it a glassy shiny sort of finish?

Thanks
Geoff

[Tex B]

Garf,

I'm probably in a bit of a rut with finishing. Typical for me these days is to sand with ROS (I use the Metabo duo) up to 400g. Then a coat of danish oil (I use a mix of 1/3 tung, 1/3 boiled linseed, 1/3 poly) rubbed in by hand with 800g wet & dry sandpaper. Wipe it off before it dries. Then 2 more coats of danish oil, with a day or so in between each coat. Let that sit for 2-3 weeks, then U-Beaut traditional wax.

The oil seems to give a richer finish, and is easier for me than other finishes. Wipe on poly does a very similar job.

A couple of pics of this finish are in this (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=77453) thread and this (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=76354) one.

The Polishers Handbook was where I learned the most in a short time, and then refined a bit on this forum and reading instructions on packages.

Tex

[journeyman Mick]

I use precatalyzed nitro-cellulose lacquer by Mirotone. If I use gloss (which I don't) I can get a deep glossy finish fit for a grand piano. I use semi-gloss which gives good gloss without looking like plastic. As per directions I sand to 280 grit. I use a metabo ROS and have it hooked up to a vacuum cleaner. This makes the abrasive last longer and makes the sanding process faster and cleaner. One sanding disc will usually last long enough for me to prep all the timber doors for an average kitchen.

I apply one coat of sanding sealer (by mirotone, specifically for the above product) and after 20 minutes or so I hand sand it back with 320#. I can then start spraying the NC lacquer straight away. This and the sealer are usually thinned about 50% with lacquer thinners. I apply at least 2 coats, wet on wet, and then after about 20 minutes I turn the item over and apply on the other side. If neccesary I will hand sand again with 320# and apply a couple more coats. For a really smooth finish I might fill the gun with straight thinners and give a coat of that as it will melt the surface and "sink" down any imperfections.

It's quick, easy and cheap (once you've got the compressor and spray gun) and you can get the whole job done to a high standard in less than a day. It's little wonder that most commercial operations use it. It may not be to everyones taste to spray on a finish and the lack of a suitable area to spray in may make it completely unfeasible for some but it's definitely worth considering as a a finish.

Mick

[garfield]

A couple of pics of this finish are in this (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=77453) thread and this (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=76354) one.

The Polishers Handbook was where I learned the most in a short time, and then refined a bit on this forum and reading instructions on packages.

Tex

Couple of nice pieces there Tex, and the finish looks great mate. Thanks for posting your technique.

Geoff

[garfield]

I use precatalyzed nitro-cellulose lacquer by Mirotone. If I use gloss (which I don't) I can get a deep glossy finish fit for a grand piano. I use semi-gloss which gives good gloss without looking like plastic. As per directions I sand to 280 grit. I use a metabo ROS and have it hooked up to a vacuum cleaner. This makes the abrasive last longer and makes the sanding process faster and cleaner. One sanding disc will usually last long enough for me to prep all the timber doors for an average kitchen.

I apply one coat of sanding sealer (by mirotone, specifically for the above product) and after 20 minutes or so I hand sand it back with 320#. I can then start spraying the NC lacquer straight away. This and the sealer are usually thinned about 50% with lacquer thinners. I apply at least 2 coats, wet on wet, and then after about 20 minutes I turn the item over and apply on the other side. If neccesary I will hand sand again with 320# and apply a couple more coats. For a really smooth finish I might fill the gun with straight thinners and give a coat of that as it will melt the surface and "sink" down any imperfections.

It's quick, easy and cheap (once you've got the compressor and spray gun) and you can get the whole job done to a high standard in less than a day. It's little wonder that most commercial operations use it. It may not be to everyones taste to spray on a finish and the lack of a suitable area to spray in may make it completely unfeasible for some but it's definitely worth considering as a a finish.

Mick

Do you apply a stain on your pieces Mick - or just apply the lacquer over the sanding sealer?

Good post, thanks Mick.

[journeyman Mick]

Do you apply a stain on your pieces Mick - or just apply the lacquer over the sanding sealer? ................

Rarely, although a few years back I used to do a lot of mouldings for boats in Tas Oak or Meranti and stain them "maple". I'm not a huge fan of staining, but whatever the client is willing to pay for etc etc.:rolleyes: As far as my own stuff goes, well I'm fortunate? in that I've got more timber than time to use it. I have a fair range of colours as well, although I'm a bit lacking in really pale/blond timbers as I've used up most of my Silver Ash stock. Bit hard to make a dark timber stain down to a pale timber though.

Mick

[jerryc]

Garfield,

Your original request boils down to how "long is a piece of string?"
The whole of the finishing forum is devoted to different techniques and different finishes. Wander through it first and then ask for expanded explanation.

For example you are having trouble with biscuits joints. Seems to me there is someting wrong with your technique. Properly handled joints made with a biscuit cutter are usually in need of very little sanding. to align them The joints are almost self aligned. I do use biscuits from time to time but not on edge to edge joining. Properly prepared wood can be edge joined by a rubbing joint and this is where clamping techniques come into play.

Wood preparation is vital before a finish is applied. A finish, as you are discovering will magnify poor preparation. What tools you use in wood surface preparation and the effect they can have on a finish is another great area of discussion.

As to types of finish, again go through the finishing forum. I am a great believer in using shellac and in applying it with a rubber. Apart from my views ,there are plenty of differing points of view on how to apply it.

Wongo produced a thread on a foolproof wipeon finish to which I added some extra research. Again worth reading.

I have a compressor and spray guns but seldom use them because my workshop is too dusty and I haven't seen the necessity for a spray booth.

Just one small tip however that should be useful. Most finishes in cans are too thick. I find it better to use several thinned coats rather than a strraight out ot the can approach. Here again however you will find some who totally disagree with me.

My best starting advice is go ahead with the piece you are working on and ask specific questions. More important than that is not to expect to get all the answers at once. I've been woodworking for years and 'm still saying the same thing each time I finish a piece.
"I can see how next time I can improve on that."

That's woodwork

Jerry

[garfield]

Rarely, although a few years back I used to do a lot of mouldings for boats in Tas Oak or Meranti and stain them "maple". I'm not a huge fan of staining, but whatever the client is willing to pay for etc etc.:rolleyes: As far as my own stuff goes, well I'm fortunate? in that I've got more timber than time to use it. I have a fair range of colours as well, although I'm a bit lacking in really pale/blond timbers as I've used up most of my Silver Ash stock. Bit hard to make a dark timber stain down to a pale timber though.

Mick

So you just like the natural finish of the wood on most of your work then....

I have soooo much to learn.

[garfield]

Garfield,

Your original request boils down to how "long is a piece of string?"
The whole of the finishing forum is devoted to different techniques and different finishes. Wander through it first and then ask for expanded explanation.

For example you are having trouble with biscuits joints. Seems to me there is someting wrong with your technique. Properly handled joints made with a biscuit cutter are usually in need of very little sanding. to align them The joints are almost self aligned. I do use biscuits from time to time but not on edge to edge joining. Properly prepared wood can be edge joined by a rubbing joint and this is where clamping techniques come into play.

Wood preparation is vital before a finish is applied. A finish, as you are discovering will magnify poor preparation. What tools you use in wood surface preparation and the effect they can have on a finish is another great area of discussion.

As to types of finish, again go through the finishing forum. I am a great believer in using shellac and in applying it with a rubber. Apart from my views ,there are plenty of differing points of view on how to apply it.

Wongo produced a thread on a foolproof wipeon finish to which I added some extra research. Again worth reading.

I have a compressor and spray guns but seldom use them because my workshop is too dusty and I haven't seen the necessity for a spray booth.

Just one small tip however that should be useful. Most finishes in cans are too thick. I find it better to use several thinned coats rather than a strraight out ot the can approach. Here again however you will find some who totally disagree with me.

My best starting advice is go ahead with the piece you are working on and ask specific questions. More important than that is not to expect to get all the answers at once. I've been woodworking for years and 'm still saying the same thing each time I finish a piece.
"I can see how next time I can improve on that."

That's woodwork

Jerry

Jerry I'm just a novice wood worker still trying to learn the great art of building and finishing. I just thought I'd start this thread and see what different techniques others out there use and thought I could maybe pinch a bit from each one and try some of them together - or try each one individually and see which one might suit me in ease or appearance.

As for the biscuit joining, I know that I'm doing something wrong, and as I did another biscuit join last night and had the same problem I'll be posting a thread asking for help on that one in the wood working general forum. I wasn't asking for help on that in this thread, just making the point that I know now I over did it there in that area with the belt sander.

Regards
Geoff.

[journeyman Mick]

So you just like the natural finish of the wood on most of your work then....

I have soooo much to learn.

Well I'm pretty fortunate in that I've got a fair bit of really nice timber which has got plenty of colour. I do have a couple of utilitarian bits that I built years ago that I stained (with maple stain left from the boat building jobs:D). There's an aquarium stand/cabinet built completely from leftovers and scavenged stuff. Pine studs for the frame, pine lining boards for the panels and dressed pine for the door frames, plus the aquarium glass came from a shop fit job. I think I had to buy a fluro batten for the light box and a couple of gro light tubes. I stained it to disguise the mishmash of different pines and just to hide its pineyness. I also built an ironing board cabinet out of ply and it got the stain treatment also.

Generally I'll try to use a timber of whatever colour I'm after. But most people don't have access to a wide range of timbers and they're none of them cheap. There's nothing wrong with making stuff out of pine and staining it, especially as you're building your skills.

Mick

[garfield]

Well I'm pretty fortunate in that I've got a fair bit of really nice timber which has got plenty of colour. I do have a couple of utilitarian bits that I built years ago that I stained (with maple stain left from the boat building jobs:D). There's an aquarium stand/cabinet built completely from leftovers and scavenged stuff. Pine studs for the frame, pine lining boards for the panels and dressed pine for the door frames, plus the aquarium glass came from a shop fit job. I think I had to buy a fluro batten for the light box and a couple of gro light tubes. I stained it to disguise the mishmash of different pines and just to hide its pineyness. I also built an ironing board cabinet out of ply and it got the stain treatment also.

Generally I'll try to use a timber of whatever colour I'm after. But most people don't have access to a wide range of timbers and they're none of them cheap. There's nothing wrong with making stuff out of pine and staining it, especially as you're building your skills.

Mick

Well I'm certainly trying to build my skills :U and this forum just helps out so much.

Thanks for your tips and technique Mick.

Geoff

[garfield]

Hi all,

Just a bit of a follow up to this thread.

Today I had the sand a piece to the unit I'm making and rather than hit it with the power sander I did it by hand. I started with a 80grit, 120, 240 and then finished off with a 320grit. I must say I ended up with a very smooth nice finish and after applying the stain it was completely different and a lot better than the rest of the unit.

So thanks to all for the tips.
Geoff

[RufflyRustic]

:2tsup::2tsup:

Pictures??:)

Please??:):wink::)

[garfield]

:2tsup::2tsup:

Pictures??:)

Please??:):wink::)

I'll post some pictures tonight.

[JT]

I started with a 1/3 sheet BOSCH orbital sander which was fine for average sanding work, though it didn't remove as much as I thought it would. I then added a Makita belt sander to really cut away and do heavy stock removal and finish off with the 1/3 sheet and then finish by hand but the final finsh still had swirl marks on it.

After a few years and much deliberation I bought a Festool ETS150/5 (random orbital sander with 5mm orbit) and the following grits 80/120/240/400. And it is by far the most usefull sander of them all - it is smooth to use, and gives a finish that I only thought possible by professionals. If you use the grits and a vacume to suck up all the dust and make sure that you keep moving it around and progressivly up the grit to the next level you will find yourself with a fantastic finish. Once I get past the 400 I use oregan oil hard burnishing oil and let it soak in, this raises the grain and then after 1 hour or so I sand (slightly wet) at 400 and then progress up to 800. -apply another coat - let it dry, give it another coat the next day, let it dry and then with a lambswool pad on a drill buff it with some wax and you will have a lovely shiny surface.

The Random orbital sander was something I thought I could do without but after using one and seeing the results it was clearly worth having and something I would hightly recommend!

Hope this helps!:U

[garfield]

I just won one of these on ebay. I hope it improves my sanding jobs.... see how it goes anyway. I'll be making sure that I finish off the last few grit by hand though.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/5-Random-Orbital-Air-Palm-Sander-Air-Hand-Power-Tools_W0QQitemZ390010019819QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Air_Tools?hash=item390010019819&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

[AlexS]

The way I finish depends on what I'm making. As I do a lot of boxes & smaller stuff, this is what I do on them. A good finish depends on good preparation.
1. Scrape & oil your bench. Those little blobs of glue will leave dings that you won't see 'till it's too late.
2. Plane to size and remove any machine marks.
3. If there's any tear out, remove it using a scraper.
4. Sand through the grits to 800. If it's a large surface I use the ROS to 400. Let the weight of the ROS do the work, not you.
5. Vacuum the dust off the piece.
6. Use paper towels soaked in methylated spirits to clean the remaining dust off. Wipe each surface twice.
7. Check all surfaces very carefully for any small dings. They can be removed by steaming with an iron and damp towel if the fibres aren't broken, otherwise they will need to be scraped out. Lightly sand again after steaming or sanding
8. When the metho has dried off, apply a sealing coat of thinned shellac.
9. Give the shellac about an hour, then sand very lightly with 800.
10. Remove the sanding dust using a rag damped with white spirits.
11. When the white spirits has dried off, you are ready to start applying your finish. My preference is Kunos oil cut 50/50 with Bio thinners (both available from the Natural Paint place, Newtown NSW). Wear white cotton gloves while finishing, to prevent fingermarks.
12. Apply the first coat as a flood coat using a soft cloth. Leave it for 10-15 minutes, then wipe off any excess. Always wipe the oil on and off along the grain.
13. Allowing at least 12 hours between each coat, apply two more light coats. The cloth just needs to be damp with oil. Rub these coats in briskly.
14. Apply a final coat using 0000 steel wool. Don't rub too hard with the steel wool, and don't use too much oil. After 10 minutes, rub briskly with a clean cloth.
15. After about 12 hours, buff with a soft cloth. For a glossier finish apply a thin coat of UBeaut trad. wax and buff.

[garfield]

Thanks for the input Alexs.

[garfield]

Here's the pics Wendy. I'm really disappointed how the finish turned out but will know better next time.

Thanks
Geoff

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/garfield071095/DSCF0100.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/garfield071095/DSCF0101.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/garfield071095/DSCF0102.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/garfield071095/DSCF0099.jpg

[LGS]

Hi Garfield,

Just looking at the pics, it appears you need to do more preparatory sanding before even thinking about the finish. Those dark ridges on the sides shouldn't be there. Also, you will probably find it easier if you finish the panels before gluing up, then you won't end up with a "bald patch" at the top.

Regards,

Rob

[RufflyRustic]

Hi Garfield, thanks for the pictures. :2tsup: Don't worry about being disappointed. In fact, be glad you can recognise this and know you are SOOO going to improve your finishing. (you have already started by reading through this thread) There is nothing so motivating as looking/using a woodwork project of your own where the finish is not what you were wanting ( :- yes, speaking from experience:B and lots of it)

Don't be disappointed, be glad that you are learning and that you can learn and your next project will be so much better for it. (I guess everyone knows now I'm a Glass Half Full girl :D)

You've made a good start, I can't wait to see your next project :)

cheers
Wendy

[garfield]

Hi Garfield,

Just looking at the pics, it appears you need to do more preparatory sanding before even thinking about the finish. Those dark ridges on the sides shouldn't be there. Also, you will probably find it easier if you finish the panels before gluing up, then you won't end up with a "bald patch" at the top.

Regards,

Rob

Yeah I've had a shocker Rob. I learnt some valuable lessons from this thread but jumped the gun a bit and started on the finishing just before I started this thread.

[garfield]

Hi Garfield, thanks for the pictures. :2tsup: Don't worry about being disappointed. In fact, be glad you can recognise this and know you are SOOO going to improve your finishing. (you have already started by reading through this thread) There is nothing so motivating as looking/using a woodwork project of your own where the finish is not what you were wanting ( :- yes, speaking from experience:B and lots of it)

Don't be disappointed, be glad that you are learning and that you can learn and your next project will be so much better for it. (I guess everyone knows now I'm a Glass Half Full girl :D)

You've made a good start, I can't wait to see your next project :)

cheers
Wendy

Thanks for the encouragement Wendy, and thanks for your post on this thread got the ball rolling and I've taken a lot more knowledge out of it.

Geoff

[astrid]

i suspect that there is a leg pull going on somewhere.

If this is radiata, it is notoriosly difficult to stain.
dont sand over 240 or it wont take a stain at all well.
as for the advise re the finish, seal with shellac and then whatever.

i sugest that you buy better timber for your next job or salvage some off the hard rubbish.

different timbers take different finishes and techniques differently, there are many books written on the subject:rolleyes:
depends on the tighness of the grain, the oil in the wood and heaps of other things.

If you want to make a pine bookshelf, stain the timber before you assemble it.
treat with 2-3 coats of shellac, cut back with 0000 steel wool and wax it.

[Cruzi]

Just started spraying spirit stains on radiata and the effect is amazing.

The person who is teaching me has many years of commercial furniture finishing experience.

With radiata he says, spray stain onto bare timber, spray sanding sealer on, adjust colour and and problem areas with spray stain again (very low pressure and volume is key here), then spray with pre-cat laquer.

For a more "grainy" look he recommends rubbing on the stain by hand in first step.

Very fast, durable finish, can be done within a day, does take a week or two to fully harden though and not suitable for table tops.

[garfield]

i suspect that there is a leg pull going on somewhere.

If this is radiata, it is notoriosly difficult to stain.
dont sand over 240 or it wont take a stain at all well.
as for the advise re the finish, seal with shellac and then whatever.

i sugest that you buy better timber for your next job or salvage some off the hard rubbish.

different timbers take different finishes and techniques differently, there are many books written on the subject:rolleyes:
depends on the tighness of the grain, the oil in the wood and heaps of other things.

If you want to make a pine bookshelf, stain the timber before you assemble it.
treat with 2-3 coats of shellac, cut back with 0000 steel wool and wax it.

I think I had a lot to do with the finish though Astrid. I'd be more confident of a better finish next time - even using the same pine.

[garfield]

Just started spraying spirit stains on radiata and the effect is amazing.

The person who is teaching me has many years of commercial furniture finishing experience.

With radiata he says, spray stain onto bare timber, spray sanding sealer on, adjust colour and and problem areas with spray stain again (very low pressure and volume is key here), then spray with pre-cat laquer.

For a more "grainy" look he recommends rubbing on the stain by hand in first step.

Very fast, durable finish, can be done within a day, does take a week or two to fully harden though and not suitable for table tops.

Any chance of seeing some pics of this amaizing finish Cruzi?

[Cruzi]

This is sprayed spirit stain, but final coats are 2 pac poly

http://www.cruzis-coins.com/tmp/proj4005.JPG

Pre-cat laquer finish over spirit stain

http://www.cruzis-coins.com/tmp/proj4001.JPG

Will get some pics later of some radiata stuff.

[garfield]

This is sprayed spirit stain, but final coats are 2 pac poly

Pre-cat laquer finish over spirit stain

Will get some pics later of some radiata stuff.

So does the grain of the wood show through the spray stain?

Nice looking pieces there by the way :2tsup:

[Cruzi]

The grain does show through quite well, although with some darker stains, it does not have the same contrast, this can be fixed with the hand rubbing of the stain in first step.

[garfield]

The grain does show through quite well, although with some darker stains, it does not have the same contrast, this can be fixed with the hand rubbing of the stain in first step.

Ok, look forward to seeing the pine that you have sprayed when you post the pictures.

[halminator]

I know this is an old thread but I've been taking my time searching through some old posts to get information on techniques before takling my first finish.

In reading through a few posts I've seen that people finish their projects first then assemble later in order to get a consistent finish across the piece and minimise any 'bald spots'.

Is this common practise when oiling or just applying a stain?

[Christos]

In reading through a few posts I've seen that people finish their projects first then assemble later in order to get a consistent finish across the piece and minimise any 'bald spots'.

Is this common practise when oiling or just applying a stain?

It is just easier to finish a flat piece then one with several corners. Also note that finish should be avoided where the pieces are to be glued.