Safe places to park money? [Archive]

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Toolin Around

7th October 2008, 05:03 PM

This may not be the best forum to post this but I don't really belong to any other forums (other than lurker) so this is it.

I thought in the current financial light a thread where those that have a better understanding of finanacial matters could have a place to voice their opinions and help shed some light for those that don't have such a clear picture of all the options available to them as to where there are safe(r) places to put money for the time being.

I suspect I'm like most here and what I have I can't afford to loose. So I'm trying to figure out what options there are out there to park some money in and see if this storm blows itself out before it reaches land.

I'm hoping this is one of the times where I can happily say I was wrong but I suspect we're in for some real hard times and I would like to make my finances as resistant to what may be ahead as possible. So any opinions are much appreciated

Please limit critisism of others opinions as I think there are many here that would like to hear what options there are out there without this degenerating into a sharpening thread and confusing everything and wasting the time of those that want to offer up their help to educate the ignorant - like me.

Calm

7th October 2008, 05:28 PM

As a para-professional Accountant, i dont claim to be a financial advisor but i will try and stick to my logic.

With Superannuation you can ring your fund and change the stratagy from high risk-high return (all shares) to low risk - low returns(bank interest, usually term deposit) at any time you wish.

If you had all your super at high risk and you had $100,000 in value 12 months ago you will probably find if you are lucky you now have about $80,000, the value of the shares has fallen.

Yes everyone tells you that shares are for the long term and they will go back up again and now is not the time to sell as you will miss out on the gains. I DONY AGREE.

By my guess/estimation the share market is not getting better anytime soon, in fact in Australia i dont think we have seen the start of the hard times yet.

Term deposits are at the moment earning up to 8 percent so why not change your strategy to low risk (term deposit) for say about 12 months or until you think the share market is getting more stable and then change your stategy back to higher risk or more "balanced".

I would only use very stable Australian Banks term deposits for investments - my thoughts on this is that if the banks go under it wont mattter where your money is.

NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO BE GOING INTO PYRAMID - remember them - a lovely Geelong building society.

Thats my 2 bobs worth. This way your money will still be increasing - even though more slowly -and you can still buy back shares when they start to become a good investment again.

My thoughts are that it is even possible for the mining boom to be nearly over - this will depend on what happens in the global economy - if demand for that drops then the bubble will burst.

Its all doom and gloom at the moment but careful is definitely the way to go.

Cheers

Gra

7th October 2008, 05:30 PM

DISCLAIMER: I am not a financial advisor and have no qualifications and no idea what I am talking about , so anybody following this advise without seeking professional advise is an idiot.

Ok now I have said that. at the moment cash is king. gold is also something that is commonly used as a refuge in troubled times (No matter what happens to the buying power of the money you can always convert gold back to a decent amount of cash). Looks like we will be living in "Interesting times" for the next couple of years..

Looking at the markets, any of the big miners that have been hurt in the current round of market drops should be a good buy, any of their drops have no basis in reality, as they will still be able to sell their stuff offshore no matter what happens, as they are selling to china and china will take all the resources they can get (More that we can currently supply). Remember the US is only about 30% of Chinas production (Made up statistic but its something like that:B), most of the rest is domestic.

So in summing up;
1. cynical answer buy gold bury it in the garden and under your mattress.
2. Optimistic answer buy resources companies and ride out the mess on the back of China

Pheonix

7th October 2008, 05:30 PM

Get yourself a weather proof jar,dig a big hole in your backyard and bury it!
I suspect all the chickens are about to come home to roost:wink:

Shutterbug

7th October 2008, 05:50 PM

An interesting article by Robert Gottliebsen today.

http://www.smartcompany.com.au/Free-Articles/The-Briefing/20081007-The-real-share-sell-off-has-begun-now-brace-for-the-fallout-Gottliebsen.html?source=cmailer

Mike

Toolin Around

7th October 2008, 05:59 PM

weisyboy

7th October 2008, 07:02 PM

in a jar down by the creek:2tsup:

you cant lose if ya got cash:2tsup:

echnidna

7th October 2008, 07:07 PM

Give it to me, I'll look after it:D

Ashore

7th October 2008, 07:27 PM

I wish I knew fixed term deposits at the larger banks , but with a rate drop of 1% by the reserve bank? Proberly the best investment would be another house , there are some good buys , if you can get one of those at the moment there could be in 4-5 years a 25% gain and with negative gearing and any improvements you do in you spare time ? but you gotta get the right one
Consumer spending is still good for the general economic conditions and there are still some reasonably stable shares available that are paying good dividents
The comodities sector may be ok but if china and india get affected as well then they might turn into a disaster , as I said I wish I knew , perhaps take up sin ( spend it now ) while its still worth something :rolleyes:

BobR

7th October 2008, 07:43 PM

Toolin Around

7th October 2008, 08:41 PM

Toolin Around, in asking for some advice/suggestions you need to provide some more information. Things like an indication of age, risk profile, reason for investing, are funds currently invested elsewhere, are you retired or near retiring age. Remember, that if your funds are currently invested you only have a paper loss. Sell to get cash up and it will become a real loss. I am a cynic when it comes to financial advisers as I believe that the majority of them are just product salespeople. Try and get one to put you into direct shares or directly into property.

I was just looking for opinions to give me some food for thought that I could explore. I'm not into investing to be honest just looking for a safe place to park some money till things settle down. Thought of the property market but not in this country. I think things are still way over priced and have a long ways to fall yet especially if things get tough. Don't they say the income to debt ratio here is the worst it's ever been. If it is there's a lot of houses to be lost over the next couple years.

Ron Dunn

7th October 2008, 09:52 PM

Your safest option is still a retail deposit with an Australian bank. You'll get interest (admittedly not a lot) and it will be protected by a government guarantee.

Once you move away from "safest", you start taking on varying degrees of risk. When you start chasing returns you increase your risk - the greater the return, the greater the risk.

Burying money is silly. You get no interest, and no protection from theft or other loss.

m2c1Iw

7th October 2008, 10:03 PM

Hi TA,
M2c, for the foreseeable future or at least until the middle of next year when hopefully some sense will return to the markets term deposits are my choice. Depending on how much you have probably not a bad idea to spread it around the big 4. If you already have shares, well depending what they are you probably are stuck again until well into next year.
Did I see the government talking about government guaranteed private deposits?

I came across this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqkECoEEp_Y&feature=related) vid on another forum and post it here with tongue firmly in cheek.:D I would say what is displayed here is exactly what is wrong at the moment, way too much hysteria coming from all fronts.

Cheers
Mike

m2c1Iw

7th October 2008, 10:07 PM

and it will be protected by a government guarantee.

Are deposits currently protected? I thought there was just talk about legislating for it.

Mike

Shutterbug

7th October 2008, 10:54 PM

8th October 2008, 12:24 AM

Are deposits currently protected? I thought there was just talk about legislating for it.

I've only heard how it wont happen in Australia.

If you are not into investing, then I don't really understand the point of the question. Where is your money now? And why move it all?

Many who are into investing took the hint from Nov/Dec last year and started culling stocks not worth hanging on to - those that would fare badly from poor market sentiment.

My thoughts are that shares will probably be in the doldrums for some time, but they are likely to recover far more quickly than the property market - as has typically been the case. But then I wonder if falling interest rates and low clearance at auction may not point the way to good buying opportunities in property for those so inclined...?

Stocks in companies that produce gold could be worth investigating especially if the share prices have taken a bit of a tumble.

Of course, none of that is advice, just some thoughts...

Toolin Around

8th October 2008, 09:58 AM

Hear, hear.
The Big 4 aussie banks all have a AAA-rating. Only 18 of the worlds banks out of some 250,000 carry this rating.

Mike

I've heard the same thing parroted by many people but I have yet to find any organization posting this list for 2008. I've seen every other years but no this years.

The Bleeder

8th October 2008, 10:04 AM

TA,

I don't know your circumstances so this is my opinion only.

I worked for that institution on Bridge St for 25 years.

A term deposit is the second safest place for your money at the moment. (It is generaly recognised that it will take about 3 years for the stock market to recover).

Shop around all the institutions that offer term deposits to find which one suits you.

I'm with BobR on Financial Advisors (bottom feeders that are only interested in their commissions) that they are product sales people (there are good ones and bad ones but I can't pick 'em).

Property is a good investment but then again you have to pick the right one like Ashore said.

Gold stocks are preferably left alone unless you have a good stock broker who will give you advice that will help you make a decision.

If you run your own super fund then there are other options that are available.

As I said before 'I don't know your circumstances and this is my opinion only'.

Steve

Ron Dunn

8th October 2008, 10:05 AM

I'm wrong. Well, rather, I'm a couple of decades out of date.

Bank deposits in Australia are NOT guaranteed.

Toolin Around

8th October 2008, 10:06 AM

Are deposits currently protected? I thought there was just talk about legislating for it.

Mike

No aussie bank has insurance on any accounts. They did uptil the 80's when the market was opened up and the big four complained that the insurance gave them a competitive disadvantage so it was scrapped. In the US you can choose to be in an insured institution or not. Canada, England, Ireland, Scotland (and I would suspect many other European banks also) all have insurance underwritten by the government on every account.

It may be a bit of paranoia but it wouldn't surprise me that if things were to get much worse a bank here could tip over. It's happened before in less sever circumstances hasn't it.

Clinton1

8th October 2008, 03:25 PM

damian

8th October 2008, 04:08 PM

Goodness me, all this panic and fuss.

In the early 90's the USA had the savings and loan stuffup. Similar thing to this. 500 US banks went under. None of ours did. This time about 300 US banks are tipped to fail. Unlikely any of ours will. I did say banks, not mortgage shops who get all their capital on the money market like rams.

Some of you might have noticed John Simons repositioning Aussie about 18 months ago, from being a rams to being a reseller, reducing exposure, moving into credit cards. Smart man.

Real estate has dropped about 10% across Australia, and the people I listen to are predicting a further 20-50% fall. I am looking to trade up to a bigger house but I'm not moving in any hurry. I sure wouldn't be buying investment properties right now.

I don't think we are at the bottom yet, but we are approaching a buying opportunity. Everyone loves to hate the banks but given you can't stop them putting share holders first might as well become a share holder and roll in those dividends. Rio looked good at $95, at $85 or whatever it is it's beautiful, but I'd still be buying BHP first, more diverse, safer. Big 4 banks and big miners, just pick carefully.

But then what would I know ?

Toolin Around

8th October 2008, 08:17 PM

I believe any of the Mints will sell gold to you, either cash and carry, deliver to your bank for safe deposit box storage, or you can store for a fee. Perth Mint and Australian Mint spring to mind.
Private vendors are available.

Silver is also a safe haven.

Might pay to take a look at the graph for the price of gold over the last 5 years as well, it has gone up and up and up as the more cautious got into it heavily over the past 3 years.

I note the comment someone else made with regards to Financial Planners, yes there are plenty of bottom feeders, and also others that make their living chasing the best return for their clients on a year on, year out basis...you do have to pick the good ones though.
Just like tradesmen really! :D

I've been given bad advice by stockbrokers working for multinational companies, financial planners, accountants and others... its down to the individuals and how you control them.

http://www.ainsliebullion.com.au no affiliation, blah, blah, blah...

I'm not overly trusting of the advice given by the "professionals" when I'm ignorant of what they're talking about. To be honest I've not found much of the paid advice I've gotten to be all that good - most of the time it's biased. For the most part now I prefer to get direction from casual opinions that I can then go and investigate myself. Then seek out professionals when I know as much as them (but I don't let on I do) to get another point of view and or see if they have anything of value to add.

Greg Q

8th October 2008, 10:14 PM

I heard that the Bank of Scotland is one of the other AAA rated banks, and they are being thrown a multi-billion lifeline by the B o E. You can only really go by the assurances that ANZ aside, no one here has any exposure to those toxic sub-prime property CDO's and CDS's*

Although there are as many if not more CDO's backing up the equally risky credit card and student loan debt loads. No local bank has even addressed them in their statements. I read last month that there is some leveraged exposure in our banks, and that the worst case would wipe out their capital base.

I am of the "Krugerands in the jar under the house" school of thought*

*note to thieves: Under the house in theory. In practice they are buried under the septic tank. Fill your boots.

ian

8th October 2008, 10:27 PM

do you have a mortage with a major bank?

if yes, you can park spare cash (up to the value of the mortage) in an interest offset account linked to the mortage.
effectively you'll be earning about 8% after tax on your savings

ian

Note that I'm not a financial advisor

9th October 2008, 01:08 AM

Real estate has dropped about 10% across Australia, and the people I listen to are predicting a further 20-50% fall.

Care to explain the fundamentals behind that prediction? Just that I've not heard that anywhere else...

damian

9th October 2008, 08:58 AM

The long term average ratio of median wages to median house prices is 3 times. Over the last 10 years the US rose to about 3.5 times. We currently sit at 7 times.

About 1 in 3 housholds in Australia are mortgaged and many of those are small, however it only takes about 5% or even 3% of the market departing to cause a collpase. While people like me are unaffected by this current situation there are a small but highly leveraged ( lots of debt ) group of people out there. Over the next few years they will struggle to meet their credit card repayments and keep their jobs. As hose prices start to fall they will find the house worth less than their 100% mortgages and as payments are missed banks will forclose and sell at whatever price they can get. Then the whole house of cards comes crashing down.

I've been telling people this was comming for 5 years, and get quite annoyed when people look at me stupid and say thigns like "house prices never fall". I begged screamed and cried to friends in 89 not to buy homes, and got abused for my trouble, only to watch them go broke and lose everything they had in the early 90's. Being right didn't make it less painful.

Note that I am not makeing the above prediction. I think 20% is a good possibility, 50-60% less likely, but I really don't know. The outcome of this retraction is less easy to predict than previous ones becauseof the changed demographics of home owners in Australia. We have become a truely divided society, with people like me carrying no debt and being cash and asset rich contrasting people struggling manage thier money. The outcome is unclear.

If you can be bothered watch tuesdays 7:30 report on podcast (might have been wednesday) and Alan Kohla's Inside Business on sunday mornings, again should be on podcast. Don't believe everything they say, especially when it is a reporter or a special interest saying it. Some of the commentators are amusing, some are worth listening to.

Finally, as an aside, I'll repeat what I have typed elsewhere.

1. The market doesn't matter. Billions haven't been wiped off anything. Short term movements are driven by day traders and other's of thier type who deserve whatever they get. Your super/shares has only fallen if your selling this week.

2. The media are in the business of selling advertising space, and to that end attracting viewers. They are not there to educate you, nor are they your friends. They will say and do anything to spread fear and panic so you keep watching.

3. Tight credit will affect the real economy. Businesses will fail, jobs will be lost, lives damaged. It's a terrible pity, along with the fact that government and society more widely is driven by headlines rather than substance.

2c.

Toolin Around

9th October 2008, 09:56 AM

Care to explain the fundamentals behind that prediction? Just that I've not heard that anywhere else...

Have a look at the 50 year graph of realestate prices across Australia at ASB. The increase in price compared to the last two increases is massive in scale. The graph almost goes vertical. There is no way that such rediculous spending by home buyers can be sustained or the prices maintained. Mathmatically speaking the prices have to come down. When you look at the graph of the last 50 years one thing is also noticeable. The drop in price on the back side of the wave is relative to it's increase on the front side so this drop will be a big one relatively speaking.

damian

9th October 2008, 09:59 AM

Have you got a link to that ? it'd save me some typing next time I answer this question...

Just found this:

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rn/2006-07/07rn07.htm

clare

9th October 2008, 11:21 AM

Thanks for that clear and succinct overview Damian. It comes as a timely reminder to really do the homework and to dismantle such cliches as 'safe as houses' and 'can't go wrong with bricks and mortar' etc I remember all too well the crash in '89 that left so many people with negative equity on their homes in the UK and and huge, lasting debts that for many, were insurmountable. I'm pretty sure the housing market would recover and continue it's northward climb on the graph, but as you say, it's what happens inbetween times that does the damage.

Toolin Around

9th October 2008, 05:18 PM

Have you got a link to that ? it'd save me some typing next time I answer this question...

Just found this:

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rn/2006-07/07rn07.htm

I'll have to dig for it. It was about 10 months ago that I saw it.

Calm

9th October 2008, 08:32 PM

Just a little observation -

The statistics show that Australians have been spending 145% of their income for thepast 2 or 3 years -

Doesnt this mean we owe someone 45% of our income.

What happens if we dont/cant pay it back.

BTW i think Damian is right on the money - as i said in the second post term deposit is the best place at the moment to keep investments/superannuation moving upwards and will probably be the case for the next 12 months - After that there will be good money to be made in shares and probably in about 5 years time realestate will be unbeatable, but it will take time for the whole thing to wash through.

Greg Q

9th October 2008, 08:59 PM

It's not just Australian families overspending...the credit card debt obligations in the U.S. may be 1/3 as much as the housing debt at risk...that's the other shoe that will drop if the recession is bad*

As far as real estate goes, the IMF thinks that our real estate is 4% to 12% over priced, but their math is unexplained. If it fell 12% it would still be hugely unaffordable on a world scale.

I heard two soothsayers on ABC News Radio this afternoon. One, a respected economist, thinks our best case scenario is a recession twice as bad and twice as long as the early 90's. Best case. (The other scenario runs to a ten year depression.).

The other guy was being interviewed about the shrinking workforce. He explained that the numbers of new entrants, especially skilled people, would be far less than the number of people leaving (boomers). (Not mentioned was how many people would be unable to retire if super tanks). The upshot of the discussion was speculation that we might have the curious condition of deflation, recession yet low unemployment.

Yet another voice asked why, if the banks here were so healthy and all, they have been using some very dodgy collateral for loans from the Reserve Bank for a year or so. (Trying to shove it off the books).

My employer is already planning for a minimum decrease in revenue of 10% next year. Wages too they tell us.

kmthor

10th October 2008, 08:26 AM

there are plenty of bargins on the market at the moment in the next few weeks we should see more green days than red, not saying we wont see red but the green day should be more.

i also agree with Damian. the media's approach of spreading doom and gloom is for i reason only....there own profit. if you put a ban on international financial news for a week what would we be seeing in the hedlines... interest rates down, growth of 2%+
this is what they should be focused on.

if you have the capital and the nerve there is money to be made in the current climate

DYOR

km

damian

10th October 2008, 08:46 AM

Oh my god! You mean someone has actually read what I wrote and given it some consideration ? Next people will actually start acting on what I've said.

Better sharpen my ice skates, I see satan on the horizon...

It's not just Australian families overspending...the credit card debt obligations in the U.S. may be 1/3 as much as the housing debt at risk...that's the other shoe that will drop if the recession is bad*

Credit in the US is runing something like 350% of GDP.

I heard two soothsayers on ABC News Radio this afternoon. One, a respected economist, thinks our best case scenario is a recession twice as bad and twice as long as the early 90's. Best case. (The other scenario runs to a ten year depression.).

He's the guy from the 7:30 report I mentioned. Funny!

He's an economist and has pulled out some figures that indicate we're about 2X worse right now than 1930. It's based on debt ratios, but the stuff he's focusing on is only part of the picture.

The other guy was being interviewed about the shrinking workforce. He explained that the numbers of new entrants, especially skilled people, would be far less than the number of people leaving (boomers). (Not mentioned was how many people would be unable to retire if super tanks). The upshot of the discussion was speculation that we might have the curious condition of deflation, recession yet low unemployment.

Maybe. A more amusing statistic is that right now there are 8 workers per retiree. In a couple of decades or somethat that will avhe shrunk to 2 or 3. Aged pension ? I don't think so.

namtrak

10th October 2008, 08:47 AM

I think it's all about 'keeping your head while those around you lose theirs'

First thing first - dont sell anything! If you sell shares or property now you will just be turning paper losses into real losses. Basically, you've missed the boat.

Second, is buy, buy and buy some more! Over the next few months we will be looking at buying another property in some place that has taken a hit, and we will also look at buying into blue chip shares. The logic is now you are getting more bang for your buck. 6 months ago, if you had spent $1,000 you may have bought 200 shares of Company X at $5 each, now you can buy 400 shares of Company X at $2.50. So when Company X returns to $5 (and they will - its just about how long that will take - 36 months is possible) you have 400 shares and have doubled your $1,000.

If your jittery about your money - then this very simplistic strategy isnt for you, this is just for those with a decent set of peaches and can afford to ride out more losses.

Cheers

Pheonix

10th October 2008, 04:05 PM

We have in place things like SRDs,LGS ratios so we should be fairly well insulated from the coming recession,,just ahiccup.:2tsup:

Calm

10th October 2008, 04:26 PM

I'll make a statement now - you can check on it in 12 months and see who is more accurate.

Any shares bought now will be dear in 6 months and if lucky will be the same value in 12 months - meaning they are no where near the bottom yet.

Any realestate bought in the next 12 months will be dear in 2 years and may be worht the same value in 3 to 5 years - meaning they havent started to drop yewt and will take 5 years to recover.

people who think we are insulated from the world is only kidding themselves. I would say there is a good chance that the minerals boom is almost over.

BTW noone has even mentioned a Superannuation fund going under but it is a possibility.

Not a good outlook but thats my opinion.

Cheers

bitingmidge

10th October 2008, 05:25 PM

The mineral boom by some definitions is over. However a huge devaluation in the AUD will prop up our resources companies so there shouldn't be too much terrible blood letting. (Not that anyone can predict where things will end).

At last the PM has confirmed that bank deposits aren't guaranteed.

I'm with Calm, it's not a bad time to be buying right now.

As for house prices, 1990 was nearly 20 years ago. The growth in average house size and amenity has not been factored into any of the statistics I've seen. Much of the pressure on land costs has come about because of a ridiculous level of scrutiny and infrastructure costs levied by local governments. Up until the 90's it took 8-12 weeks to get approvals for a subdivision, now it takes 12-24 months, add an easy 20% just for holding costs without all the other charges.

I'm not denying that increases are disproportionate, but they certainly aren't as bad as they seem.

We've seen a supposed 30% fall off in some areas, but my observation is that those houses were a million dollars too expensive in the first place!

Shares my dive further, but it's about time to start buying I reckon, there's only so far they can fall before the dividends start to become extraordinary!

Cheers,

P
:D

Metal Head

10th October 2008, 09:45 PM

A few of these will bounce in months to come - but which ones I wonder. Btw, all these stocks hit there lowest point in the past year - nearly all the ASX:rolleyes:.

52 Week lows:-
AAC AUST AG CO FPO 2.310 2.320 2.320
AAM A1 MINERAL FPO 0.081 0.090 0.081
AAR ANGLO FPO 0.015 0.018 0.017
AAX AUSENCO FPO 6.100 7.000 6.160
ABC ADEL BRTN FPO 2.640 2.720 2.640
ABJ AUSBIODESL FPO 0.009 0.010 0.009
ABP ABACUS STAPLED 0.655 0.770 0.685
ABQ ALL BRANDS FPO 0.260 0.315 0.260
ABY ADITYA FPO 0.570 0.655 0.635
ACL ALCHEMIA FPO 0.180 0.190 0.180
ACR ACRUX FPO 0.700 0.750 0.700
ACS ACCENT RES FPO 0.085 0.125 0.100
ADD ADAVALE FPO 0.020 0.022 0.020
ADG ADTRANS FPO 2.800 3.000 2.800
ADX AUDAX FPO 0.045 0.050 0.045
ADY ADMIRALTY FPO 0.038 0.041 0.039
AEC AMMTEC FPO 3.030 3.100 3.050
AEE AURA EN FPO 0.110 0.150 0.110
AEF A ETHICAL FPO 28.000 30.000 28.000
AET AUSMELT FPO 0.410 0.520 0.410
AEZ APN UKA STAPLED 0.120 0.130 0.120
AFI AUS.FOUND. FPO 4.230 4.500 4.400
AGF AMP CHINA ORD/UNITS 0.700 0.800 0.750
AGG ANGLOGOLD CDI 5:1 4.750 5.000 4.750
AGS ALLIANCE FPO 0.285 0.375 0.290
AGY ARGOSY CDI 0.070 0.090 1.250
AHN ATHENA RES FPO 0.050 0.080 0.050
AIE AUTODOM FPO 0.029 0.035 0.029
AIM AIM RES FPO 0.013 0.015 0.014
AIO ASCIANO STAPLED 2.400 2.680 2.400
AIX AUST INFRA UNT/ORD 1.820 1.960 2.000
AIZ AIR N.Z. FPO NZ 0.785 0.800 0.785
AJL AJ LUCAS FPO 3.080 3.130 3.160
AKK AUSTIN FPO 0.071 0.095 0.075
ALB ALBIDON CDI 0.560 0.690 0.560
ALF AUST LEAD FPO 0.690 0.715 0.715
ALK ALKANE FPO 0.180 0.195 0.180
ALS ALESCO FPO 4.620 4.680 5.050
ALZ AUSTRALAND STAPLED 0.450 0.520 0.455
AMA ALLOMAK FPO 0.205 0.250 0.205
AMB AMBITION FPO 0.250 0.280 0.250
AMH AMCIL FPO 0.520 0.560 0.520
AMP AMP FPO 5.890 6.010 5.890
AMU AMADEUS FPO 0.400 0.410 0.410
ANG AUSTIN ENG FPO 1.580 1.890 1.850
ANH ANSEARCH FPO 0.010 0.011 0.010
ANZPB ANZ BANK PREF 95.000 97.600 96.700
AOM AUS ORIENT FPO 0.006 0.007 0.006
AOS ADV OCULAR FPO 0.003 0.004 0.004
APG AUSTPAC R FPO 0.056 0.057 0.060
APH ASCENT LTD FPO 0.150 0.180 0.200
API AUST PHARM FPO 0.400 0.475 0.450
APN APN N&M FPO 2.720 2.890 2.810
APZ ASPEN STAPLED 0.915 0.950 0.950
AQA AQUILA RES FPO 3.350 3.780 3.570
AQP AQUA PLAT FPO 15CUS 3.480 3.810 3.880
ARA ARIADNE FPO 0.215 0.320 0.250
ARE ARGONAUT FPO 0.083 0.090 0.083
ARG ARGO FPO 5.800 6.400 5.900
ARH AUSASN RES FPO 0.280 0.390 0.440
ARJ ARK FUND FPO 0.705 0.725 0.705
ARM AURORA MIN FPO 0.110 0.150 0.165
ARO ASTRO DIA. FPO 0.004 0.005 0.004
ARU ARAFURA FPO 0.230 0.290 0.240
ARW AUSTREFUEL FPO 0.015 0.018 0.017
ASC ADULTSHOP FPO 0.007 0.008 0.007
ASL AUSDRILL FPO 1.225 1.350 1.250
ASZ ASG GROUP FPO 0.600 0.640 0.680
ATV ATLANTIC FPO 0.080 0.084 0.080
AUI A.U.INV. FPO 6.190 6.450 6.190
AUN AUSTAR FPO 0.995 1.010 0.995
AUQ ALARA RES FPO 0.034 0.041 0.034
AUW AUSWEALTHM FPO 0.920 1.060 0.925
AVA AVIVA FPO 0.200 0.250 0.200
AVG AUST VINT FPO 0.655 0.680 0.695
AVH AVITA MED FPO 0.041 0.050 0.041
AVM ANVIL MIN CDI 3.700 3.990 3.720
AVX AVEXA FPO 0.110 0.125 0.125
AWE AUST WORLD FPO 1.890 2.050 1.900
AXA AXA ASIA FPO 4.160 4.270 4.200
AXO AUROX RES FPO 0.130 0.180 0.140
AXQ ALLCO MAX UNIT 0.028 0.030 0.028
AXT ARGO EXPLO FPO 0.040 0.050 0.040
AZC AUST ZIRC FPO 0.061 0.075 0.070
AZS AZURE MINS FPO 0.070 0.085 0.086
BAR BARRA RES FPO 0.049 0.061 0.050
BAS BASSOIL CO FPO 0.035 0.040 0.038
BBC BBC STAPLED 0.250 0.280 0.260
BBI B&B INFR STAPLED 0.205 0.225 0.205
BBW B&B WIND STAPLED 0.850 0.860 0.920
BCC BUCCANEER FPO 0.100 0.125 0.115
BCI BCIRON FPO 0.250 0.350 0.250
BCM B&BCAPITAL FPO 2.000 2.020 2.350
BCSCA BRISCONNCT CTG 0.024 0.026 0.025
BDG BENDIGO FPO 0.105 0.135 0.130
BDL BRANDRILL FPO 0.090 0.115 0.105
BDM BIODIEM FPO 0.070 0.090 0.070
BEC BECTON STAPLED 0.260 0.330 0.300
BENPC BEN ADE BK PREF 84.000 85.500 84.000
BEPPA BBI EPS PREF 0.325 0.335 0.330
BFE BLACK FIRE FPO 0.060 0.083 0.060
BFG BELL FN GP FPO 0.600 0.650 0.710
BHP BHP BLT FPO 26.980 28.800 27.740
BIT BIOTRON FPO 0.100 0.110 0.105
BJT B&BJAPAN UNIT 0.405 0.510 0.460
BKM BKM MANAGE FPO 0.005 0.006 0.005
BLG BLUGLASS FPO 0.190 0.205 0.200
BLK BLACKHAM FPO 0.130 0.150 0.130
BLR BLACKRANGE FPO 0.015 0.020 0.016
BLT BENITEC FPO 0.043 0.047 0.043
BLY BOART FPO 0.615 0.710 0.700
BMM BELLAMEL FPO 0.085 0.090 0.085
BMN BANNERMAN FPO 0.245 0.375 0.275
BMY BRUMBY RES FPO 0.070 0.078 0.070
BND BANDANNA FPO 0.300 0.400 0.420
BNO BIONOMICS FPO 0.200 0.260 0.270
BOM BONDI FPO 0.080 0.130 0.080
BON BONAPARTE FPO 0.040 0.050 0.040
BOQ BANK QLD FPO 10.910 11.410 11.000
BOQPB BANK QLD S1 PREF 90.000 95.000 95.000
BPT BEACH FPO 0.785 0.800 0.800
BRM BROCKMAN FPO 0.455 0.515 0.480
BRU BURUENERGY FPO 0.150 0.190 0.165
BRW BREAKAWAY FPO 0.120 0.130 0.130
BSL BLUESCOPE FPO 5.620 5.890 5.650
BSM BASSMETALS FPO 0.076 0.090 0.076
BSR BASSARI FPO 0.025 0.060 0.025
BTC BIO CAPITL FPO 0.120 0.130 0.120
BTV BATAVIA FPO 0.060 0.074 0.065
BUL BLUEENERGY FPO 0.140 0.160 0.140
BUR BURLESON FPO 0.046 0.065 0.050
BUY BOUNTY OIL FPO 0.020 0.023 0.022
CAJ CAPITOL H FPO 0.045 0.050 0.045
CAL CITIC AUST FPO 0.550 0.650 0.600
CAMPA CLIME CAP 7.5% PREF 1.510 1.520 1.560
CAZ CAZALY RES FPO 0.105 0.125 0.105
CCD CALEDON CDI 0.770 0.860 0.770
CCQ CONTANGOCP FPO 0.355 0.390 0.360
CCU COBAR FPO 0.070 0.080 0.070
CDD CARDNO FPO 3.140 3.250 3.300
CDF CWLTH DSF ORD UNITS 1.130 1.180 1.145
CDH CHONGHERR FPO 0.011 0.020 0.011
CDM CADENCE FPO 0.620 0.740 0.750
CDU CUDECO FPO 1.275 1.660 1.400
CEU CONCT EAST STAPLED 0.600 0.605 0.630
CFR CLUFF FPO 0.004 0.006 0.006
CFU CERAMCCELL FPO 0.260 0.320 0.280
CHB C C HELLEN CDI 19.000 19.960 19.000
CHC CHARTER HG STAPLED 0.640 0.735 0.660
CHN CHALICE FPO 0.080 0.100 0.080
CHO CHOISEUL FPO 4.350 4.620 4.350
CIG CASPIAN FPO 0.020 0.022 0.020
CIN CARLT.INV. FPO 14.350 14.700 14.350
CIR CIRCADIAN FPO 0.660 0.705 0.660
CIX CALLIDEN FPO 0.320 0.340 0.320
CLO CLOUGH FPO 0.470 0.480 0.490
CLQ CLEANTEQ FPO 0.310 0.315 0.310
CLX CTI LOGIST FPO 0.800 0.900 0.800
CMR COMPASS FPO 0.305 0.365 0.370
CMV CMA CORP FPO 0.195 0.200 0.200
CNB CANBERRA FPO 0.770 0.900 0.770
CND CLARIUS FPO 0.880 0.950 0.915
CNX CARBON ENE FPO 0.250 0.260 0.295
COE COOPER FPO 0.255 0.270 0.265
COK COCKA COAL FPO 0.320 0.415 0.335
COO CORUM GRP FPO 0.010 0.029 0.010
COU COUNT FPO 1.190 1.290 1.290
CPA COMMOFFICE ORD UNIT 1.005 1.110 1.105
CPR CLIVEPTERS FPO 0.380 0.400 0.380
CQT CONQUEST FPO 0.150 0.190 0.180
CQU COMMQUEST FPO 0.080 0.100 0.115
CRC CORTONA FPO 0.085 0.095 0.085
CRG CRANE GRP FPO 9.150 9.600 9.300
CSE COPSTRIKE FPO 0.065 0.090 0.065
CSR CSR FPO 1.835 1.920 1.850
CSV CSG LTD FPO 0.510 0.720 0.620
CTE CRYOSITE FPO 0.105 0.115 0.105
CTN CONTANGO FPO 0.700 0.820 0.750
CTP CENT PETRL FPO 0.080 0.115 0.090
CTS CONTACT FPO 0.057 0.060 0.057
CTX CALTEX FPO 9.920 10.310 9.920
CUE CUE FPO 0.130 0.145 0.140
CUL CULLEN RES FPO 0.051 0.060 0.055
CUO COPPERCO FPO 0.105 0.110 0.115
CUV CLINUVEL FPO 0.200 0.210 0.210
CUY CURNAMONA FPO 0.200 0.230 0.200
CVC CVC LTD FPO 0.800 0.900 0.800
CVI CITYVIEW FPO 0.018 0.019 0.019
CVR CENASIARES FPO 0.048 0.050 0.048
CWK COALWORKS FPO 0.200 0.255 0.205
CWT CHALWINETR ORD UNITS 0.485 0.500 0.520
CXG COOTE IND FPO 0.520 0.720 0.570
CXM CENTREX FPO 0.150 0.190 0.150
CXS CHEMGENEX FPO 0.570 0.660 0.590
CYA CENTURY AU FPO 0.775 0.885 0.810
CYC CYCLOPHARM FPO 0.105 0.130 0.105
CYL CAT METALS FPO 0.065 0.070 0.070
CYT CYTOPIA FPO 0.110 0.130 0.110
CYU CY COPPER FPO 0.100 0.105 0.100
CZA COALAFRICA FPO 0.890 1.140 0.985
CZP COMPUTERCP FPO 0.040 0.050 0.040
DBS DARK BLUE FPO 0.180 0.250 0.180
DDT DATADOT FPO 0.090 0.130 0.100
DEG DEGREY FPO 0.040 0.042 0.040
DES DESTRA FPO 0.015 0.019 0.018
DEX DEXION FPO 0.750 0.845 0.780
DGH DESANE FPO 0.390 0.400 0.390
DGO DRUMMOND FPO 0.051 0.080 0.051
DJW DJW INVEST FPO 3.340 3.710 3.340
DLS D/SEARCH FPO 0.025 0.028 0.028
DMG DRAGONMOUN FPO 0.080 0.090 0.085
DML DISCOV MET FPO 0.250 0.265 0.250
DMX DOLOMATRIX FPO 0.145 0.150 0.160
DON DIAMONEX FPO 0.100 0.125 0.100
DRX DIATREME FPO 0.100 0.110 0.105
DTM DARTMIN FPO 0.070 0.100 0.070
DUI DUI FPO 2.830 2.900 2.830
DVN DEVINE FPO 0.595 0.720 0.620
DWS DWSADVANCE FPO 0.670 0.800 0.680
DXS DEXUS PROP STAPLED 1.100 1.125 1.170
DYE DYESOL LTD FPO 0.520 0.615 0.585
DYL D YELLOW FPO 0.105 0.145 0.115
EAL E&A LTD FPO 0.420 0.480 0.460
EBB EVEREST BB FPO 0.120 0.140 0.120
EBI EB&B TRUST UNITS 1.860 1.910 1.900
EFE E IRON FPO 0.100 0.130 0.100
EGF ELLER GEMS UNITS 1.550 1.615 1.590
EGO EMPIRE OIL FPO 0.008 0.009 0.009
EKA EUREKA FPO 0.085 0.100 0.095
ELI EM LEADERS FPO 0.685 0.705 0.685
ELK ELK PETROL FPO 0.190 0.200 0.190
EMA ENERGYMINE FPO 0.295 0.315 0.300
EME ENERGY MET FPO 0.460 0.590 0.460
EMS EASTLAND FPO 0.090 0.095 0.140
ENB ENEABBA G FPO 0.070 0.076 0.070
ENG ENGIN FPO 0.015 0.016 0.015
ENV ENVESTRA ORD/LOAN 0.615 0.635 0.615
EPG EUROP GAS FPO 0.300 0.320 0.320
EQN EQUINOXMIN CDI 1.965 2.300 2.030
EQX EQUATORIAL FPO 0.130 0.135 0.130
ERA ERA FPO 'A' 10.330 12.870 10.330
ERN ERONGO FPO 0.051 0.062 0.051
ERO EROMANGA FPO 0.030 0.035 0.036
ESG EASTNSTAR FPO 0.190 0.240 0.205
ESI ENVIRON FPO 0.030 0.033 0.036
ESS ESSA AUST FPO 0.620 0.660 0.640
ESV ESERV FPO 0.700 0.730 0.740
ESW EMERSTEW FPO 0.115 0.170 0.170
ETE ENTEK FPO 0.080 0.091 0.080
EVE ENERGY VEN FPO 0.017 0.020 0.017
EVZ ENVIROZEL FPO 0.140 0.160 0.145
EXM EXCALIBUR FPO 0.005 0.006 0.007
EXS EXCO RES FPO 0.120 0.145 0.125
EZLDA EUROZ DEF SET 0.880 1.100 0.900
FAR FIRST AUST FPO 0.026 0.036 0.032
FAS FAIRSTAR FPO 0.061 0.070 0.065
FAT FATPROPHET FPO 0.690 0.760 0.720
FCLPA FUTURIS HYBRIDS 68.000 70.000 70.000
FCN FALCON MIN FPO 0.081 0.095 0.081
FEA FOREST AUS FPO 0.350 0.385 0.400
FER FERMISCAN FPO 0.185 0.250 0.190
FGE FORGE GRP FPO 0.300 0.410 0.300
FKP FKPSTAPLED STAPLED 1.365 2.120 1.500
FMG FORTESCUE FPO 2.680 3.300 2.680
FML FOCUS MIN FPO 0.020 0.023 0.023
FMS FLINDERS FPO 0.041 0.060 0.044
FND FINDERS FPO 0.550 0.600 0.600
FNT FRONTIER FPO 0.025 0.030 0.025
FPA F&P APP FPO NZ 1.150 1.320 1.150
FRI FINBAR FPO 0.500 0.550 0.500
FRS FERRAUS FPO 0.280 0.340 0.300
FSE FIRESTONE FPO 0.020 0.023 0.021
FWD FLEETWOOD FPO 6.520 7.300 6.590
FWL FERROWEST FPO 0.100 0.120 0.110
FXJ FAIRFAX FPO 2.230 2.340 2.230
FXJPB FAIRFAX PREF 78.200 85.000 78.200
FXL FLEXIGROUP FPO 0.275 0.320 0.325
FXR FOX RES FPO 0.185 0.250 0.200
GAU GRT AUSRES FPO 0.042 0.050 0.042
GBE GLOBE MET FPO 0.125 0.140 0.125
GBG GINDALBIE FPO 0.320 0.410 0.325
GCL GLOUCESTER FPO 3.430 3.850 3.780
GCS GLOBAL CON FPO 0.670 0.710 0.670
GDN GDN STATE FPO 0.043 0.047 0.045
GDR GOLDSTAR FPO 0.040 0.050 0.040
GDY GEODYNAMIC FPO 0.655 0.800 0.770
GGE GRAND GULF FPO 0.016 0.018 0.016
GGY GLENGARRY FPO 0.025 0.029 0.026
GHT GEO RES FPO 0.435 0.450 0.435
GIR GIRALIA FPO 0.485 0.550 0.570
GJT GALI JAPAN UNIT 0.180 0.210 0.190
GLB GLOBE INTL FPO 0.360 0.400 0.360
GLF GULF RES FPO 0.056 0.063 0.085
GLX GULFX FPO 0.040 0.042 0.059
GMD GEN MINS FPO 0.150 0.170 0.150
GME GME RES. FPO 0.070 0.080 0.130
GMG GOOD GROUP STAPLED 1.475 1.630 1.510
GMI GBL MINING FPO 1.020 1.220 1.070
GMPPA GOOD PLUS STEPUP PF 64.000 71.000 66.000
GNM GUJARATNRE FPO 0.990 0.995 1.080
GNSPA GUNNS FORESTS 75.100 76.800 75.100
GPG GUINNESS CDI 0.860 0.900 0.860
GPN GREATERPAC FPO 0.006 0.007 0.006
GPP GREENPOWER FPO 0.065 0.070 0.065
GPT GPT STAPLED 1.120 1.340 1.190
GRB GAGE ROADS FPO 0.040 0.050 0.040
GRD GRD LTD FPO 0.585 0.625 0.620
GRK GREEN ROCK FPO 0.035 0.036 0.040
GRR GRANGE FPO 0.675 0.720 0.700
GSF GSFCORP FPO 0.005 0.006 0.006
GTE GREAT WEST FPO 0.026 0.028 0.026
GTG GENE TECH FPO 0.050 0.055 0.050
GUD G.U.D. FPO 4.900 5.140 4.940
GUN GUNSON FPO 0.060 0.062 0.060
GWR GOLDENWES FPO 0.710 0.795 0.750
GWT GWA INTER FPO 2.340 2.360 2.480
GXL GREENCROSS FPO 0.600 0.650 0.600
HAV HAVILAH FPO 0.350 0.435 0.390
HAW HAWTHORN FPO 0.010 0.016 0.012
HAZ HAZELWOOD FPO 0.090 0.140 0.135
HDG HODGES RES FPO 0.060 0.080 0.060
HER HERALD RES FPO 0.950 1.090 1.030
HFA HFA HOLD FPO 0.475 0.540 0.475
HGI HENDERSON CDI 1.590 1.900 1.650
HGN HALCYGEN FPO 0.200 0.210 0.200
HGO HILLGROVE FPO 0.086 0.087 0.090
HHL HUNTERHALL FPO 5.750 6.110 5.870
HHY HASTING HY ORD UNITS 1.055 1.150 1.055
HIG HIGHLANDS FPO 40T 0.056 0.062 0.056
HMC HYDROMET FPO 0.061 0.069 0.061
HRR HERON FPO 0.155 0.195 0.210
HSK HEEMSKIRK FPO 0.760 0.880 0.800
HST HASTIE GRP FPO 1.445 1.780 1.600
HVN HARVEY FPO 2.570 2.680 2.600
HZN HOR OIL FPO 0.195 0.210 0.210
IAA ISHASIA CDI 1:1 38.880 40.090 39.320
IAS IALLSPORTS FPO 0.145 0.160 0.145
IBC IRONBARK FPO 0.450 0.455 0.450
IBG IRONB GOLD FPO 0.100 0.120 0.100
IDL INDUSTREA FPO 0.200 0.210 0.215
IDO INDO MINES FPO 0.400 0.500 0.425
IEF ING RE ENT UNIT 0.490 0.510 0.505
IEM ISHMSCIEM CDI 1:1 34.940 37.500 36.430
IEU ISHEU350 CDI 1:1 46.000 47.700 46.000
IFE IRONCLAD FPO 0.220 0.300 0.220
IGO IND GROUP FPO 1.640 1.710 1.640
IGR INTEGRA FPO 0.110 0.130 0.120
IIF ING INDUST UNITS 1.000 1.100 1.030
IKO ISHMSCIKO CDI 1:1 41.960 44.000 42.750
ILF ING RE COM STAPLED 0.170 0.220 0.180
IMA IMAGE RES FPO 0.225 0.250 0.290
IMD IMDEX FPO 0.530 0.630 0.630
IMP IMPERIAL FPO 0.006 0.008 0.007
IMU IMUGENE FPO 0.035 0.050 0.035
INE INDIA FUND FPO 0.360 0.395 0.390
INP INNAMINCKA FPO 0.255 0.305 0.255
IOH IRONORE FPO 0.190 0.210 0.195
IPE ING PRI EQ FPO 0.560 0.610 0.620
IPM INCREMENTL FPO 0.800 0.860 0.820
IPP IPGA LTD FPO 0.080 0.100 0.080
IRD IRON ROAD FPO 0.100 0.150 0.100
IRE IRESS FPO 4.590 4.960 4.730
IRL INDIA RES. FPO 0.030 0.036 0.030
IRM IRON MOUNT FPO 0.090 0.110 0.090
IRN INDOPHIL FPO 0.500 0.600 0.550
IVA IVANHOE FPO 0.480 0.590 0.500
IVC INVOCARE FPO 4.630 4.710 4.750
IVE ISHEAFE CDI 1:1 63.880 66.100 63.880
IWI INT WINE UNIT 0.820 0.860 0.820
IXR IMX RES FPO 0.250 0.285 0.250
JAK JACKSON FPO 0.030 0.040 0.030
JET JETSET FPO 1.090 1.120 1.090
JML JABIRU MET FPO 0.125 0.165 0.140
JMS JUP MINES FPO 0.085 0.120 0.085
JPR JUPITERENG FPO 0.026 0.029 0.028
JRL JINDALEE FPO 0.380 0.410 0.380
JUT JUTTHOLDGS FPO 0.028 0.043 0.028
JVG JV GLOBAL FPO 0.097 0.099 0.097
KAR KAROON FPO 1.645 1.960 1.670
KAT KATANA FPO 0.700 0.750 0.700
KBC KEYBRIDGE FPO 0.220 0.325 0.230
KIL KFM DIVERS ORD/UNITS 0.625 0.640 0.625
KMN KINGS MIN FPO 0.125 0.135 0.140
KOV KORVEST FPO 3.750 4.000 3.750
KRS KRESTA FPO 0.160 0.200 0.180
KSX KARMEL FPO 0.019 0.020 0.021
KTL KTL TECH FPO 0.010 0.020 0.010
KZL KAGARA FPO 1.500 1.715 1.620
LCT LIV CELL FPO 0.145 0.150 0.145
LCY LEGACYIRON FPO 0.150 0.180 0.150
LEG LEGEND FPO 0.012 0.013 0.012
LEI LEIGHTON FPO 27.500 33.150 29.220
LGD LEGENDCORP FPO 0.072 0.075 0.074
LLC LEND LEASE FPO 7.600 8.500 7.650
LMG LATROBE FPO 0.003 0.004 0.004
LMW LANDMARK FPO 0.500 0.520 0.500
LRF LINQ RES UNIT 0.500 0.605 0.500
LTR LIONTOWN FPO 0.035 0.045 0.035
LYC LYNAS FPO 0.350 0.400 0.350
LYL LYCOPODIUM FPO 3.000 3.420 3.200
MAE MARION EN FPO 0.300 0.370 0.305
MAL MATILDA FPO 0.050 0.055 0.050
MAR MALACHITE FPO 0.085 0.120 0.085
MAU MAGNET RES FPO 0.027 0.040 0.027
MBN MIRABELA FPO 1.815 2.330 1.870
MCC MACAR COAL FPO 5.700 5.850 5.800
MCG MAC COMM STAPLED 1.935 2.200 2.140
MCL M2M CORP FPO 0.009 0.010 0.009
MCR MINCOR FPO 0.870 0.930 0.875
MCW MACQ CNTRY UNIT 0.625 0.655 0.655
MDL MINDEPOSIT FPO 0.415 0.450 0.440
MDS MIDAS RES FPO 0.030 0.048 0.040
MDT MACQ DDR UNIT 0.165 0.195 0.210
MDV MEDIVAC FPO 0.004 0.005 0.005
MEL METGASCO FPO 0.300 0.360 0.360
MEO MEO AUST FPO 0.097 0.120 0.125
MEP MIN EX FPO 0.150 0.160 0.165
MET MTISA MTLS FPO 0.082 0.105 0.082
MEU MARMOTA FPO 0.045 0.046 0.045
MFC METALS FIN CDI 1:1 0.070 0.075 0.070
MFG MAG FINC FPO 0.400 0.490 0.480
MGO MARENGO FPO 0.120 0.150 0.120
MGU MAG MINING FPO 0.050 0.075 0.070
MGX MT GIBSON FPO 0.700 0.780 0.710
MGY MALAGASY FPO 0.056 0.075 0.060
MHM MACQHARBOR FPO 0.058 0.065 0.058
MIK MIKOH CORP FPO 0.120 0.130 0.120
MIN MINERALRES FPO 2.560 3.620 3.100
MIR MIRRABOOKA FPO 1.400 1.510 1.400
MKY MKY FPO 0.010 0.011 0.010
MLB MELB IT FPO 2.310 2.390 2.340
MLE MACQ LEISR STAPLED 1.150 1.255 1.255
MLM METALLICA FPO 0.265 0.280 0.280
MLT MILTON FPO 16.500 16.932 16.650
MMG MACQ MEDIA STAPLED 1.990 2.100 2.000
MML MEDUSA FPO 0.680 0.720 0.685
MMS MCMILLAN FPO 1.910 2.000 1.910
MMX MURCHISONM FPO 0.700 0.815 0.700
MMZ MOOTER FPO 0.006 0.007 0.006
MND MONADEL FPO 9.070 10.260 9.560
MOF MACQ OFFCE UNIT 0.565 0.655 0.670
MOL MOLY MINES FPO 0.600 0.620 0.630
MOS MOSAIC OIL FPO 0.075 0.082 0.076
MOY MILLENNIUM FPO 0.025 0.030 0.025
MPA MARINE PRO FPO 0.045 0.064 0.045
MPF MULTIACUMN UNIT 0.335 0.370 0.335
MPS MACCOOKPRO UNIT 0.210 0.250 0.245
MRA M AME PROP UNIT 0.250 0.290 0.250
MRC MIN.COMMOD FPO 0.060 0.066 0.060
MRE MINARA FPO 0.760 0.885 0.760
MRU MANTRARES FPO 0.900 1.000 0.900
MRX MATRIX MET FPO 0.025 0.027 0.027
MSA MAC ASIA FPO 0.200 0.260 0.210
MSH MORN STAR FPO 0.050 0.085 0.050
MSL THE MAC SG FPO 1.790 1.850 1.805
MTB MT BURGESS FPO 0.010 0.013 0.013
MTH MITHRIL FPO 0.100 0.110 0.100
MTN MTN RES FPO 0.640 0.695 0.710
MUE MPLEX EURO UNITS 0.300 0.350 0.390
MUN MUNDO MINS FPO 0.170 0.175 0.190
MUR MURCH UTD FPO 0.046 0.050 0.046
MVP MEDICALDEV FPO 0.200 0.210 0.200
MXI MAXITRANS FPO 0.425 0.480 0.460
MXR MAXIMUS FPO 0.055 0.063 0.055
NAL NORWOODABB FPO 0.006 0.008 0.006
NAM NAMOI COT CCU 0.260 0.280 0.260
NAV NAVIGATOR FPO 0.130 0.175 0.175
NBL NONI B FPO 1.350 1.590 1.405
NDL NEURO DISC FPO 0.070 0.081 0.070
NEC NTH ENERGY FPO 0.580 0.830 0.590
NEU NEUREN FPO NZ 0.062 0.065 0.062
NFE NRTHN IRON FPO 1.065 1.800 1.100
NFK NORFOLK GP FPO 0.540 0.680 0.540
NGM NGM RES FPO 0.008 0.010 0.008
NIP NIPLATS FPO 0.140 0.150 0.140
NKP NKWE COMMON 0.250 0.280 0.270
NLX NYLEX FPO 0.220 0.310 0.250
NMI NORTHMIN FPO 0.040 0.060 0.040
NMS NEPTUNE FPO 0.285 0.340 0.290
NOD NOMAD FPO 1.060 1.150 1.170
NRL NEWLAND FPO 0.040 0.050 0.040
NST NTH STAR FPO 0.040 0.057 0.040
NSX NSX LTD FPO 0.120 0.125 0.120
NWH NRWHOLDLTD FPO 0.690 0.930 0.900
NWS NEWSCORP B VOTING 13.620 14.100 14.000
NWSLV NEWSCORP A NONVOTE 13.500 13.970 13.760
NXS NEXUS FPO 0.490 0.570 0.490
OAK OAKS HTLS FPO 0.750 0.780 0.750
OBL OIL BASINS FPO 0.035 0.060 0.035
OCL OBJECTIVE FPO 0.170 0.200 0.170
ODN ODIN ENG FPO 0.040 0.050 0.040
ODY ODYSSEY FPO 0.135 0.150 0.135
OEC ORBITAL FPO 0.050 0.055 0.054
OEL OTTOENERGY FPO 0.180 0.190 0.180
OEQ ORION EQ FPO 0.520 0.550 0.520
OEX OILEX LTD FPO 0.385 0.410 0.410
OGC OCEANAGOLD CDI 0.300 0.310 0.300
OIL OPTISCAN FPO 0.145 0.150 0.145
OIP ORION PETR FPO 0.037 0.050 0.038
OKN OAKTON FPO 2.500 2.520 2.650
OLY OLYMPIA RE FPO 0.027 0.032 0.027
ORI ORICA FPO 17.500 18.100 18.230
ORL OROTON FPO 2.500 2.870 2.610
OSH OIL SEARCH FPO 10T 3.400 3.720 3.400
OST ONESTEEL FPO 3.510 3.610 3.740
OVR OVERLAND FPO 0.150 0.155 0.150
OZG OZGROWTH FPO 0.120 0.140 0.120
OZL OZMINER FPO 1.015 1.225 1.015
PAG PRIMEAG FPO 1.050 1.140 1.080
PAN PANORAMIC FPO 0.965 1.000 1.000
PBD PT BOUVARD FPO 0.300 0.320 0.300
PCAPA PERLS III PERLS III 173.100 176.500 173.100
PCL PANCONT FPO 0.016 0.020 0.016
PCP PARAMT MIN FPO 0.016 0.017 0.016
PDN PALADIN FPO 2.030 2.360 2.050
PDZ PRAIRIE DN FPO 0.120 0.160 0.120
PEN PENINSULA FPO 0.013 0.017 0.016
PEV PAC ENVIRO FPO 0.030 0.038 0.030
PFG PRIME FIN. FPO 0.210 0.220 0.220
PFL PATTIES FPO 0.850 0.880 0.900
PGA PHOTON GRP FPO 2.100 2.250 2.100
PGS PLANETGAS FPO 0.032 0.047 0.036
PHK PHOSLOCK FPO 0.061 0.100 0.061
PLA PLAT AUST FPO 0.855 0.980 0.895
PLB PLAN B GRP FPO 0.655 0.680 0.655
PLD PORTLAND FPO 0.011 0.012 0.011
PLT POLARTECH FPO 0.062 0.085 0.080
PLV PLUTON FPO 0.850 1.050 0.850
PME PROMEDICUS FPO 0.910 0.930 0.910
PMH PAC MAG FPO 0.100 0.115 0.120
PNA PANAUST FPO 0.290 0.310 0.300
PNN PEPINNINI FPO 0.320 0.330 0.350
POL POLARIS FPO 0.120 0.150 0.120
POS POSEIDON FPO 0.155 0.205 0.165
POZ PHOSPHATE FPO 0.250 0.320 0.250
PPC PEET FPO 1.800 1.950 2.000
PPD PANPALLAD FPO 0.022 0.030 0.022
PPG PRO PAC FPO 0.160 0.280 0.300
PPI PELORUS FPO 0.170 0.210 0.190
PPK PPK GROUP FPO 0.500 0.605 0.500
PPP PAN PAC. FPO 0.175 0.180 0.175
PPS PRAEMIUM FPO 0.180 0.210 0.180
PRT PRIME TV FPO 2.100 2.110 2.100
PRU PERSEUS FPO 0.480 0.550 0.500
PRV PREMIUM FPO 0.580 0.640 0.595
PRW PROTO RES FPO 0.070 0.090 0.070
PRY PRIMARY FPO 3.810 4.310 4.240
PSA PETSEC FPO 0.250 0.280 0.260
PSH PENRICE FPO 1.110 1.250 1.300
PTN PRIMETRUST UNITS 0.365 0.370 0.395
PTR PETRATHERM FPO 0.360 0.420 0.380
PTS PLATSEARCH FPO 0.095 0.110 0.095
PVA PSIVIDACOR CDI 1.100 1.190 1.100
PWK PIPE NET FPO 2.900 3.070 2.900
PXR PALACE RES FPO 0.017 0.020 0.017
PXUPA PXUTRUST PREF 55.000 58.750 55.000
PYC PHYLOGICA FPO 0.065 0.066 0.065
QAN QANTAS FPO 2.580 2.790 2.580
QGC QLD GAS CO FPO 2.150 2.470 2.350
QHL QUICKSTEP FPO 0.125 0.155 0.150
QMG QUAY FPO 0.012 0.019 0.015
QOL QLD ORES FPO 0.030 0.037 0.030
QRX QRX PHARMA FPO 0.410 0.450 0.410
QTI QLD T & I FPO 0.365 0.380 0.365
RAW RAWSON FPO 0.050 0.065 0.060
RCI ROCKLANDS FPO 0.100 0.125 0.120
RCR RCR FPO 0.680 0.685 0.700
RCY RIVERCITY STAPLED 0.140 0.150 0.145
RDR REED RES FPO 0.190 0.260 0.215
RED RED 5 LTD FPO 0.032 0.037 0.032
RER REGAL RES FPO 0.020 0.024 0.020
REU RUBICON EU STAPLED 0.010 0.014 0.011
RHCPA RAMSAY CARES 88.100 88.500 88.100
RHD ROSS HD FPO 0.290 0.295 0.290
RHI REDHILL IR FPO 2.950 3.050 2.950
RHT RESONANCE FPO 0.008 0.009 0.008
RIC RIDLEY FPO 0.755 0.770 0.880
RIO RIO TINTO FPO 71.110 77.770 73.000
RIV RIVERSDALE FPO 4.060 4.530 4.300
RJT RUBICON JP UNIT 0.017 0.021 0.017
RKN RECKON FPO 0.995 1.050 1.005
RMI RES MINING FPO 0.007 0.008 0.007
RMP REDEMPEROR FPO 0.100 0.110 0.100
RNY RECKSON NY UNIT 0.120 0.130 0.135
ROC ROC OIL FPO 0.600 0.700 0.615
ROK THE ROCK PERM. ORD 2.750 2.790 2.800
ROY ROYAL RES FPO 0.061 0.089 0.085
RPC REPCOL FPO 0.011 0.013 0.011
RPX RP DATA FPO 0.765 0.955 1.000
RRS RANGE RES FPO 0.061 0.067 0.065
RRT RECORD REL ORD UNIT 0.012 0.015 0.013
RSG RESOLUTE FPO 0.550 1.045 0.740
RSN RENISON FPO 0.004 0.006 0.005
RUL RUNGE FPO 0.650 0.700 0.655
RVR REDRIVER FPO 0.069 0.070 0.069
RWD REWARD MIN FPO 0.310 0.330 0.400
SAE SALINAS FPO 0.135 0.140 0.135
SAR SARACEN FPO 0.087 0.090 0.087
SAU STHN GOLD FPO 0.070 0.086 0.070
SAY STHAMERICA FPO 0.450 0.470 0.500
SBL SIGNATURE FPO 0.010 0.014 0.010
SDG SUNLAND FPO 1.640 1.930 1.640
SDL SUNDANCE FPO 0.080 0.120 0.089
SEA SEA LTD FPO 0.180 0.220 0.195
SEV SEVEN NET FPO 5.840 5.940 5.840
SEY SUNSET ENG FPO 0.120 0.145 0.120
SFC SCHAFFER FPO 5.150 5.650 5.150
SFH SPECIALTY FPO 0.505 0.510 0.510
SFR SANDFIRE FPO 0.145 0.160 0.145
SFY SPDR 50 ETF UNITS 38.660 41.580 38.980
SGL SYDNEY GAS FPO 0.170 0.225 0.210
SGM SIMS GRP FPO 19.210 22.040 20.160
SGN STW COMM FPO 0.925 1.010 0.980
SHE STONEHENGE FPO 0.044 0.050 0.044
SIM SCIMITAR FPO 0.140 0.150 0.140
SLA SOLAGRAN FPO 0.240 0.270 0.270
SLACF SOLAGRAN CTG 0.200 0.205 0.200
SLF SPDR PRP ETF UNITS 10.200 10.310 10.290
SLV SYLVANIA FPO 0.560 0.720 0.600
SLX SILEX FPO 2.550 2.920 3.000
SMA SMARTTRANS FPO 0.012 0.015 0.012
SML SYN METALS FPO 0.012 0.013 0.012
SMM SUMMIT RES FPO 1.500 1.560 1.695
SMX SMS M&T FPO 2.730 2.910 2.840
SND SAUNDERS FPO 0.360 0.400 0.380
SOE SOULEQUITY FPO 0.100 0.110 0.100
SOO SOLCO LTD FPO 0.030 0.031 0.030
SOT SP TELEMED FPO 0.105 0.125 0.105
SPT SPOT GRP FPO 2.310 2.490 2.880
SRH SAFEROADS FPO 1.200 1.350 1.410
SRK STRIKE FPO 0.440 0.500 0.450
SRL STRAITSRES FPO 0.925 1.380 1.050
SRR SHAW RIVER FPO 0.051 0.055 0.051
SSC SULTAN FPO 0.006 0.007 0.006
SSM SRVSTREAM FPO 0.780 0.850 0.795
STB STHBOULDER FPO 0.071 0.092 0.071
STE STRATATEL FPO 0.060 0.065 0.060
STG STAGING CL FPO 0.057 0.069 0.057
STI STIRLING. FPO 0.015 0.025 0.015
STS STRUCTURAL FPO 1.250 1.500 1.440
STU STUART FPO 0.560 0.680 0.570
STW SPDR 200 ETF UNITS 37.780 40.570 37.800
STX STRIKE OIL FPO 0.145 0.175 0.150
SUR SUN FPO 0.050 0.051 0.050
SWK SWICKMIN FPO 0.670 0.810 0.675
SXG STHCROSS FPO 0.080 0.110 0.080
TAH TABCORP FPO 7.000 7.650 7.220
TAM TANAMI FPO 0.006 0.007 0.007
TAP TAP OIL FPO 0.550 0.620 0.595
TAS TASMAN RES FPO 0.030 0.045 0.044
TAW TAWANA FPO 0.026 0.032 0.026
TDO 3D OIL FPO 0.065 0.080 0.065
TEX TARGET FPO 0.040 0.048 0.040
TEY TORRENS EN FPO 0.195 0.205 0.195
TGG TEMPLETON FPO 0.760 0.840 0.800
TGR TASSAL GRP FPO 1.950 1.980 2.000
THG THAKRAL ORD/UNT 0.715 0.725 0.740
THO THOMAS COF FPO 0.710 0.750 0.710
THX THUNDELARR FPO 0.125 0.130 0.150
TJN TROJAN EQY FPO 0.590 0.610 0.590
TLS TELSTRA FPO 3.900 3.990 3.900
TNG TNG FPO 0.035 0.040 0.035
TNL TOLHURST FPO 0.140 0.150 0.165
TPAPA TRANSP SPS STEPUP PF 62.700 66.100 65.000
TPI TRANSPAC FPO 4.300 4.760 4.400
TRG TREASURY FPO 6.650 7.000 6.700
TRH TRANSIT FPO 0.070 0.080 0.070
TRU TRUST CO FPO 7.000 7.300 7.000
TSE TFIELDSERV FPO 4.670 5.700 4.700
TSH TSVHOLDING FPO 0.130 0.150 0.130
TSO TISHMAN SP UNIT 0.560 0.565 0.600
TTR TECTONIC FPO 0.030 0.040 0.030
TTXPA TAPS TRUST TAPS 76.200 81.800 77.000
TTY TERRITORY FPO 0.160 0.210 0.185
TUC TERURANIUM FPO 0.060 0.070 0.065
TWO TALENT2 FPO 0.790 0.900 0.790
TWR TOWER FPO NZ 1.145 1.275 1.205
TXN TEXON PET FPO 0.220 0.265 0.220
TZL TZ LIMITED FPO 1.500 1.820 1.510
TZN TERRAMIN FPO 0.900 1.020 0.900
UGL UNITED GRP FPO 9.500 10.750 10.000
UMC UTD MINS FPO 0.505 0.660 0.505
UMS UCMSGROUP FPO 0.720 0.730 0.730
UNO URANIO FPO 0.095 0.100 0.095
UNX URANEX FPO 0.145 0.165 0.145
URA URAN LTD FPO 0.045 0.055 0.045
URL UNIVERSAL FPO 0.032 0.037 0.035
URM URAMET MIN FPO 0.050 0.063 0.051
VCN VULCAN RES FPO 0.080 0.095 0.082
VEC VECTOR RES FPO 0.090 0.100 0.090
VGH VSN GROUP FPO 0.965 1.060 1.010
VIR VIRIDIS STAPLED 0.550 0.595 0.600
VLA VIRALYTICS FPO 0.041 0.042 0.041
VMG VDM GROUP FPO 0.770 0.880 0.795
VML VITALMETAL FPO 0.085 0.100 0.100
VMS VENTUREMIN FPO 0.130 0.145 0.130
VPG VALAD PROP FORUS 0.083 0.115 0.083
VRL VILLAGE FPO 1.400 1.410 1.440
VRLPA VILLAGE 'A' PREF 1.090 1.195 1.100
VTP VAN EYK 3P FPO 0.760 0.855 0.875
WAA WAM ACTIVE FPO 0.795 0.820 0.795
WAB WALLACE FPO 0.200 0.205 0.200
WAG WAGLIMITED FPO 0.004 0.006 0.004
WAL WAVENET FPO 0.060 0.080 0.060
WAM WAMCAPITAL FPO 0.895 0.920 0.920
WAN WA NEWS FPO 7.460 7.530 7.570
WBA WEBSTER FPO 0.900 0.950 0.900
WBB WIDE BAY FPO 7.750 7.920 7.750
WCP WCP RESOUR FPO 0.030 0.040 0.030
WEC WHITE ENER FPO 1.985 2.060 2.010
WES WESFARMER FPO 21.750 23.980 21.750
WESN WESFARMER PART PROT 22.000 24.060 22.000
WHC WHITEHAVEN FPO 1.430 1.585 1.500
WHE WILDHORSE FPO 0.130 0.170 0.130
WHF WHITEFIELD FPO 2.900 2.920 2.900
WHG WHK GROUP FPO 0.880 0.970 0.900
WHN WHL ENERGY FPO 0.064 0.070 0.064
WIL WIL INV FD FPO 0.590 0.620 0.590
WME WA METALS FPO 0.051 0.060 0.051
WMT WEST METAL FPO 0.028 0.033 0.030
WOR WORLEYPARS FPO 20.110 22.540 21.520
WOTCA WBC OFFICE IRS 0.320 0.340 0.320
WPG WEST PLAIN FPO 0.320 0.350 0.320
WPL WOODSIDE FPO 37.000 40.700 37.200
WRK WARWICK FPO 0.120 0.130 0.120
WSA WEST AREAS FPO 3.500 3.800 3.770
WTP WATPAC FPO 1.730 1.745 1.750
WVL WINDIMURRA FPO 0.570 0.840 0.590
WWA WRIDGWAYS FPO 1.810 1.980 1.890
WWI WEST WITS FPO 0.040 0.050 0.040
WYL WATTYL FPO 1.000 1.065 1.160
XCD XCEED FPO 0.030 0.051 0.030
YTC YTC RES FPO 0.215 0.250 0.215
ZNC ZINC CO FPO 0.045 0.050 0.045

Gingermick

11th October 2008, 11:53 AM

what does that mean?

damian

11th October 2008, 02:45 PM

It means he's taken up a heap of space here.

weisyboy

11th October 2008, 05:16 PM

my mouse wheel broke:C.

none of this has stopped people spending we are still getting heaps of work.

Metal Head

11th October 2008, 06:07 PM

what does that mean?

I take it Mick you are not an active investor in the stock market? Although I haven't checked my Technical Analysis charts today there has been much conjecture so far this weekend that we aren't far off hitting the bottom and bouncing north once again. If so then many of those stocks will only increase in value - but as to which ones bounce the most is in the eyes of the potential buyer. I'd would (as I have in the past) look at stocks with good fundamentals and buy them than rely on some financial advisor telling me where to put my cash.

Regards
MH

FRB Design

11th October 2008, 06:26 PM

Basically THE YEARS OF DEBT CREATION has finally caught up and we are all going to pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What happened to saving for something then buying it.

To many people who took out loans they new they couldn't pay back.

Greg Q

11th October 2008, 07:10 PM

Not many of the technical analyists are willing to make projections anymore as we seem to be in a different statistical universe now.

One observer made the comment "too late to sell, too early to buy" which I think captures it nicely. Consumer spending will coast downwards so there won't be much evidence yet. We are about to test the estate agents' foolish mantra regarding property values I think.

I work in an industry that is a canary in the economy's coal mine, and we aren't feeling too good right now. Our grip on the perch might be slipping already.

It's time for the governments of the world to get back into the bank business I think. I don't mean buying out the peckerwoods, I mean let 'em burn and open up a new lender down the street.

Pheonix

11th October 2008, 07:18 PM

My retirement savings are rapidly depreciating:((
I'm not going to make that money back I'll run out of years,thanks to all the greedy b.....ds
that lent people money who have no intentions of paying it back:(
What do I do?' take out whats left and buy another car,maybe I will, at least I'll be able to see some value for my money.

Toolin Around

12th October 2008, 08:33 AM

Greg Q

12th October 2008, 08:45 AM

I'm with you, Toolin'...I don't buy it. The Chinese obviously had a huge ramp-up before the Olympics domestically, but even they said months ago that growth would slow domestically.

I guess that we are all again aware of how much the world's financial system is a shell game now, performed by hucksters and shills. Since there is far more money lent than is on hand the system cannot cope with decreased trust. The pollies' statements are just happy noises meant to lull folks into not thinking that maybe the money is best stuffed into the mattress.

I think now that we have two dim futures: Either a recession that is almost a depression in scope and severity, or a prolonged period of stagflation as we had in the 70's. The U.S. Fed is going to print so much money that they are flirting with Argentina-like inflation while at the same time having zero or negative growth. (Best case scenario at this point)

I would like to hear from a currency exchange expert if the above means that the U.S. dollar will again decline in value...it has to, doesn't it?

Greg

Calm

12th October 2008, 08:46 AM

m2c1Iw

12th October 2008, 08:59 AM

I always surprised at the statements about how Australia will do just great when everyone else around is falling down because Australia is tied closely to China. Does everyone of these people think Australia and China exists in a vacuum. China is only doing well cause they're an export country and exports are drying up as their two largest customers USA and Europe are not in a buying mood.

Can someone please, without parroting the usual rhetoric of the polies and smut peddlers, explain how is China going to continue on without most of its source of income.

TA I agree the slow down, recession or depression which ever you prefer will dampen China exports. However China still has enormous capacity for internal consumption an example is their car industry which continues to expand and is yet to satisfy the market there.

So while the commodity markets are in freefall I do not think the prices reflect the possible growth figures in China. Nobody would argue that Australias short term future is highly dependent on continued growth in China and it is a little worrying when we here reports of iron ore shipments being delayed, just hope that's more a credit issue or the steel producers running stocks down to protect their positions.

While the gloom on the markets is going on there is still upward pricing pressure on business inputs both materials and labour so unfortunately business profits will be under pressure in the immediate future. Increased profits and dividends will be required for a stock market recovery. As a side issue I suspect Malcolm Turnbull is correct in that the carbon tax is now a dead issue, I doubt Australian voters will cop a new tax in the middle of a depressed economy.

Then what would I know:D

Mike

Toolin Around

12th October 2008, 12:57 PM

TA I agree the slow down, recession or depression which ever you prefer will dampen China exports. However China still has enormous capacity for internal consumption an example is their car industry which continues to expand and is yet to satisfy the market there.

So while the commodity markets are in freefall I do not think the prices reflect the possible growth figures in China. Nobody would argue that Australias short term future is highly dependent on continued growth in China and it is a little worrying when we here reports of iron ore shipments being delayed, just hope that's more a credit issue or the steel producers running stocks down to protect their positions.

While the gloom on the markets is going on there is still upward pricing pressure on business inputs both materials and labour so unfortunately business profits will be under pressure in the immediate future. Increased profits and dividends will be required for a stock market recovery. As a side issue I suspect Malcolm Turnbull is correct in that the carbon tax is now a dead issue, I doubt Australian voters will cop a new tax in the middle of a depressed economy.

Then what would I know:D

Mike

But why do people think the Chinese and Indians are any different to any other nation. When things slow down for them i.e. less orders from the US and Europe, they will begin to tighten their belts, as they have already started doing. They're searching the world now for countryies to take all the orders the US and Europe have said don't send. People there whether the governemnt informs them or not will talk, rumours ripple through their cities of the world slow down and they themselves will go into self preservation mode and spend less on the things that are not essential i.e. they will put off that first car and keep the bicycle tires pumped up for a few more years... It's the normal reaction that has gone on since time immortal everywhere when the cycle reaches this point. That's what I mean in why does everyone think the Chinese and Indians has a damn the torpedos full steam ahead type of attitude when no one else does.

m2c1Iw

12th October 2008, 01:56 PM

That's what I mean in why does everyone think the Chinese and Indians has a damn the torpedos full steam ahead type of attitude when no one else does.

Here (http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24483489-31037,00.html) is a link quoting a Chinese official commenting about the state of affairs.......

Regarding commentators one thing I have heard which I agree with is that it is important that Oz consumers continue to consume. 2/3 of our economy relys on spending so a dramatic slow down will cause a painful recession with all the suffering that goes with it.

So to answer your original question all the spin about China is exactly that and intended to calm both investors and consumers but I come back to the point, our situation is dependent on how well China adjusts to changing export markets and who knows the answer to that.

Mike

Toolin Around

12th October 2008, 03:38 PM

So when you buy a new tv buy one for me also will ya :wink:. Cause I ain't spending nothin on anything I don't absolutely need - like tools.

I see Rudd's under a lot of pressure to back bank deposits as there seems to be an exodus of money to overseas banks that are backed.

m2c1Iw

12th October 2008, 03:52 PM

Cause I ain't spending nothin on anything I don't absolutely need - like tools.
.

Hmm........I'm kicking myself I've got a shopping list loaded on the Lee Valley site and was saving up to push the buy button, actually trying to figure out how to smuggle then into the shed without the finance minister finding out. That was way back when the $ was 98c.

:C ........So what do I do cut the list or delay the purchase :no: oh what to do. Perhaps I should email Rob Lee for some financial guidance:D

Mike

Metal Head

12th October 2008, 05:38 PM

Not many of the technical analyists are willing to make projections anymore as we seem to be in a different statistical universe now.

Well I am and as you can see from the image provided which is a monthly line chart, is that the All Ords is still in an upward trend. It would only said to have changed direction if it closes below the support line around the 3700 mark. So from a TA point of view it can still fall around 200 and still be technically said to be going upwards:wink:. However if it does close below the support line then even I will start praying for the future and I am an atheist.

Toolin Around

12th October 2008, 07:11 PM

Well good news all deposits in Australia are backed by the government for the next three years. I was about 4 days away from pulling everything out and putting it overseas as I suspect thousands have already done.

Calm

12th October 2008, 07:20 PM

Watched the first 5 minutes of Koshy and the same guys that said the Australian dollar would have parity or 105 with the US dollar in the short term are still yapping.

How the hell do they get credibility? Why do people keep listenign to them??

Cheers

Greg Q

12th October 2008, 07:26 PM

Well I am and as you can see from the image provided which is a monthly line chart, is that the All Ords is still in an upward trend. It would only said to have changed direction if it closes below the support line around the 3700 mark. So from a TA point of view it can still fall around 200 and still be technically said to be going upwards:wink:. However if it does close below the support line then even I will start praying for the future and I am an atheist.

I am speechless at the attendant irony of your post. Does this feel like a continuation of an upward trend really?

(I hope you are right and I am wrong, but...)

On Australian banks: I was watching CNBC Saturday...the head of investments fro Fortis Bank was listing the next wave of failures and he mentioned that they were going short on Australian banks as he felt they were all at substantial risk. I was struck at how different his statment was to what we are hearing here. I am finding so many things at which to be aghast.

bitingmidge

13th October 2008, 12:39 PM

I am speechless at the attendant irony of your post. Does this feel like a continuation of an upward trend really?

Of course it doesn't feel like it, which is why it's important not to rely on senses of feel or emotion. Like a good pilot in cloud, rely on the instruments!

I have a very small share portfolio comprising three blue chip companies and one suss gold miner. I've just done the sums out of curiosity as I've seen 50% of the face value disappear this year, and I'm still 10% ahead of CPI for the time I've held those shares (16 years), and I've taken a tax paid dividend each year.

I'm no investing genius, in fact probably the opposite, but reading newspapers gives you a "feel", seeing what sort of debt a company has and looking at the return it provides to its shareholders in both capital growth (retained assetts as opposed to share value) and dividend are probably better indicators than a bunch of speculators manipulating the markets!

That would not be the case if I'd had my money in the bank. Tax on interest, deduct inflation and your money isn't keeping up with the CPI in real terms.

So there you have it, and even it the index does dip below that theoretical line, the trend will still be up!

Cheers,

P
:D

Rocker

13th October 2008, 04:36 PM

I always surprised at the statements about how Australia will do just great when everyone else around is falling down because Australia is tied closely to China. Does everyone of these people think Australia and China exists in a vacuum. China is only doing well cause they're an export country and exports are drying up as their two largest customers USA and Europe are not in a buying mood.

Can someone please, without parroting the usual rhetoric of the polies and smut peddlers, explain how is China going to continue on without most of its source of income.

Toolin,

The reason that the Chinese and Indian economies are still in quite robust shape is that their growth is primarily dependent on internal demand rather than on exports to the US and the West. Moreover, they have huge amounts of savings. And they are still planning massive investment in infrastructure, which will require imports of Australian raw materials.

I personally trust Warren Buffet, when he says that the average investor should invest in index funds linked to the whole of the stock market, and that the time to buy is when there is blood running in the streets, even if some of it is your own.

Over the past few months I have been putting savings into an an interest-bearing deposit account at my bank, while the stock market was clearly still declining, but today I believe that we are close to a bottom, so I have started to buy index-fund units again.

This chart which shows the performance of various index funds over the past 38 years is instructive: http://www.vanguard.com.au/Personal_Investors/Tools_and_education/Calculators_and_tools/Index_chart/index.aspx

Rocker

Toolin Around

16th October 2008, 10:43 AM

That's the same rhetoric everyone is parroting. That China has an insatiable appetite like a black hole. All the oh so well learned economists forgot to ask the chinese how they'll take the slow down. The chinese, contrary to popular belief, are just like you and me. When things get tough they'll do just waht you and I will do, irrespective of what economists will say, they'll tighten up their belts and only buy what is needed. Who here's going out to buy an new Holden or made in australia top f the in fridgethis weekend? Come on hands up... just what I thought... no one. So why should the chinese or indians. If anything they're in a position to tighten up more as they can still remember how to live a much more frugal life style than any western nation.

No country exists in isolation. All countries need exports to succeed. The two most basic rules that everyone has ignored.

It appears to be the case as the last few days the news is starting to role in that China is in fact pulling back.

This injection of 14000 or 21000 for a house isn't going to work either. Who's gonna go a few hundred thousand in debt if they know there's a good chance they could loose their job in the next few years. And what banks gonna lend them the money knowing it; coupled with the banks believing houses will depreciate in the next few years anyways. And the 1000 for pensioners to blow over christmas. How many of these pensioners have the money to blow - few if any that could actually make a difference. Most if not all of them remember hard times and will tighten up and put it under the mattress. All I can say is these are a bunch of hail mary passes thrown in desperation by the government. Next the government will say everyone have another baby to save the economy.

Toolin Around

16th October 2008, 10:52 AM

What I'd really like to know is this.

They say the ones that really orchestrated this financial melt down pulled out years ago as they knew what the end result of what they were doing. The ones in place now were the late comers to the feeding frenzy and weren't smart enough to get out in time. So now they'll take the fall for this mess. And the real perpetrators are sitting back thinking up other scemes to play god with.

I'd like to know where the originators are putting their money. Not their play money but the nest egg they all hide away for when things start to unravel. Any ideas

Ashore

16th October 2008, 11:21 AM

They say the ones that really orchestrated this financial melt down pulled out years ago as they knew what the end result of what they were doing.
The financial melt down came from greenspan keeping U.S. intrest rates too low for far too long after the 2000 credit squeese and the sept 11 bombings , money was leant to people who had no way to pay it back , no jobs , no assets to say it was orchestrated I feel is just another conspiracy theory , new world order etc , but If it was orchastrated then the only ones big enough to do that could afford to buy a small country each and the way their finances are worked out by their accountants :?, or mabye they just sit on cash untill share prices fall then buy in low , espically minerals ,oil , and food production .Minerals because the proven assets are in the ground , oil and food cause their necessaties :cool:

Rocker

16th October 2008, 11:25 AM

That's the same rhetoric everyone is parroting. That China has an insatiable appetite like a black hole. All the oh so well learned economists forgot to ask the chinese how they'll take the slow down. The chinese, contrary to popular belief, are just like you and me. When things get tough they'll do just waht you and I will do, irrespective of what economists will say, they'll tighten up their belts and only buy what is needed. Who here's going out to buy an new Holden or made in australia top f the in fridgethis weekend? Come on hands up... just what I thought... no one. So why should the chinese or indians. If anything they're in a position to tighten up more as they can still remember how to live a much more frugal life style than any western nation.

No country exists in isolation. All countries need exports to succeed. The two most basic rules that everyone has ignored.

Toolin,

Although it is true that the global crisis will have some effect on China's economy, the effect will not be disastrous, as the recent IMF report says. See this item in the Chinese People's Daily: http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90884/6512394.html . The reason is that a large proportion of China's, and India's, growth is fuelled by internal demand. It is not the case that every country has to export to survive. Successful economies like Singapore's export very little. China's middle class, which has ample savings, numbers 300 million, equivalent to the entire population of the US. It is this middle class which will ensure that China's growth slows only moderately over the next two years from its current rate of almost 10% per year to about 7 1/2%, which is still a very healthy growth rate.

I also think that, once the American Presidential election is over, there will be a gradual resumption of confidence in the US, assuming, as seems almost certain now, that Obama is elected President.

As I understand it, the secret of successful investing is to avoid succumbing to greed in good times and to fear in bad times.

Rocker

damian

16th October 2008, 11:31 AM

It sounds like you've already made up your mind so I suppose it's useless trying to tell you otherwise.

Trade is not necessary, unles YOU buy into the globalisation nonesense. The fact is countries, villages, individuals have existed quite happily throughout history without trade. Trade is nice, like ice cream, but neither is essential.

Approximately 1/3 of china's gdp is exports. Coal and iron ore were about 55/tonne in 2000, they are now 150/tonne. They won't increase 30% a year anymore but we ain't going back to 50/t either.

Unfortunately as I've said before Australia has become an country divided. There are people like me with no debt, lots of capital and assets, marketable job skills who do very nicely thank you. There are other people who are in debt up to their lower lip and barely hanging on now. This will send them under.

Unfortunately people all over the world are quick to claim their adult rights. Many of them don't have the intelligence and "smartz" if you like to go with it. They hear what they want to and rail against people like me to tell them what they don't want to hear. Then they are just as quick to duck their adult responsibilities when the inevitable happens. And they vote.

Regardless, the outcome is quite sad.

Edit: Probably the biggest thing that is different for us is not our links with china but our lack of government debt. The importance of this cannot be overestimated. A smart government (snigger) can use it's borrowing power to both shelter the economy and population and also take the opportunity to build infrastructure we actually need for the future. Some of what Kevin-o-heavens is doing is good, much I disagree with, but it's probably as good as you can expect.

Greg Q

16th October 2008, 11:55 AM

pulling back.

This injection of 14000 or 21000 for a house isn't going to work either. Who's gonna go a few hundred thousand in debt if they know there's a good chance they could loose their job in the next few years. And what banks gonna lend them the money knowing it; coupled with the banks believing houses will depreciate in the next few years anyways.

Yeah, if you think that credit is going to ease somewhat it's still going to be very tight. AND, we have another chapter in the unintended consequences of social engineering: The housing suppliers are trying to jack up their prices according to one news story I read yesterday. The first time around the grant got multiplied by the average gearing rate and added 60 thousand to prices in a few months. This time of course people with minimal deposits won't be able to get easy credit anyway. Beats me why the government is so keen on keeping house prices unafordable. Oh! I know why! They don't want to wear the bursting of a bubble in real estate.

Studley 2436

16th October 2008, 12:06 PM

Best place to park your money. Bank deposit fits that description. Good place to be while you look around for something better.

There are surely some really really good stocks there though. I have heard of P/E (Price Earnings) ratios of 10 which is a brilliant ratio to buy at.

It might not be the bottom yet but if PE's are 10 then you won't go badly wrong. The thing of course is do they have earnings? Can they pay dividends? I think you get better dividends which is basically your interest on a bank stock than you do by making a deposit. What's more the dividends are Franked so you don't have to pay tax it has been paid already. The only difference then is the security between a stock and a deposit. If you get 5% dividend and the stock doubles you are effectively getting 10% but it can go the other way. You get stocks that have grown over time like most of the banks there are ones that just seem to tread water, like Qantas and Telstra. Information is everything so if you have that bent and want to spend an hour each day reading the business pages then go for it otherwise there are other things as mentioned by others.

Talking about where to park money some mentioned housing. I would be cautious on this though because there has been a huge boom in housing. There might be much more in the correction there as well. It might be 50% but there is no way to know it might just be in a holding pattern for the next few years, of course people do need to live somewhere so it will only fall so far.

The thing with stocks is liquidity. You can sell and buy them very quickly. You can't do that with a house. So the sharemarket can shoot up and down several percent in a day. It can crash too as it did last week then bounce as it did on monday (dead cat bounce me thinks) but you can get in and out of it quickly. You can't do that with housing, which means adjustments take much longer to happen.

So to summarise, deposits are good at the moment. Sending your money to a foreign bank is foolish as we have the banks that didn't need to be bailed out. Gold seems to have been very strong the past year and is at high prices so I think you have missed that one. Housing is likely to fall further but has no liquidity so is a bad investment right now. Stocks have some upside in them but be prepared to put in the effort to get them to work for you.

Studley

bitingmidge

17th October 2008, 09:13 AM

Best place to park your money. Bank deposit fits that description.

Provided inflation doesn't ramp up as a result of the artificial spending created by government handouts!

The housing suppliers are trying to jack up their prices according to one news story I read yesterday.

I love the way these stories happen and the way people believe them! When was the last time you took a pay cut? Well guess what? Construction workers want more too, that means builders have to charge more! Take a drive around the western suburbs of Sydney and see if any of the real estate agents are being rushed off their feet.

I build the odd house for sale, have one on the market right now as a matter of fact. Sometimes I do better than bank interest, sometimes I don't, at the moment we'll be lucky to break even. That happens. It's a funny thing how selling price seems to relate to costs of production! :doh:

They hear what they want to and rail against people like me to tell them what they don't want to hear. Then they are just as quick to duck their adult responsibilities when the inevitable happens. And they vote.

Regardless, the outcome is quite sad.

.. and then they tell you you were lucky when the washup is done! :rolleyes:

I don't share your sadness I'm afraid (and no I'm not being overly harsh), there is only so much one can do. There are books, newspaper articles, even television shows from which people can get simple guidance, but the fact remains historically that fewer than 10% of the population is prepared to take the advice that's available.

Everyone wants a quick fix, and when they don't find it, they buy a tele, and look out the window at those who are taking risks, working a bit harder, and saving a bit, and tell them why it won't work!

The fact that most people are allowed to vote worries me, but none the less, our Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition are two of the wealthiest politicians in our history, I suspect they are not wanting to let go of their wealth in a hurry..:no:

That's the same rhetoric everyone is parroting.

And that, dear Toolin, is the same rhetoric everyone else is parroting! :doh:

Times are difficult, that's a given. I'd rather be here than in Iceland or Zimbabwe or the USA, so I make do with what I have.

It's very likely that company profits will be down for some time, so share dividends will be as well. But guess what?? Share prices are exceedingly cheap and there are many, many strong companies with little or no debt and few competitors. They have what Warren Buffet refers to as a "moat", a big ring of protection in times like this. I haven't bought any, but I'm plucking up the courage to do so, and will regret it if I don't!

I have not doubt times are changing, but they've changed before.

Your money is safe in the bank until 2011, so you have to decide if you want to have the same amount (or less after inflation) in 2011 as you have now, or do you want it to grow?

You have to decide why you want any money at all I suppose.

I want to continue to provide a living for myself, so I will continue to take moderate risk, I may not build another spec house for a while, but I'll buy shares and move house and generally keep moving stuff around, and I'll try to find bargains in the marketplace.

If history repeats itself, sometimes I'll lose, other times I'll win what I've lost and a bit more, and we'll eat again till next time!

It doesn't matter how bad things may seem, in the great depression unemployment was somewhere between 16 and 25% . That means 75-84% of people were still employed!

Good luck!

cheers,

P
:cool:

Greg Q

17th October 2008, 09:19 AM

Provided inflation doesn't ramp up as a result of the artificial spending created by government handouts!

I love the way these stories happen and the way people believe them! When was the last time you took a pay cut? Well guess what? Construction workers want more too, that means builders have to charge more! Take a drive around the western suburbs of Sydney and see if any of the real estate agents are being rushed off their feet.

I build the odd house for sale, have one on the market right now as a matter of fact. Sometimes I do better than bank interest, sometimes I don't, at the moment we'll be lucky to break even. That happens. It's a funny thing how selling price seems to relate to costs of production! :doh:

Overnight? You are willfully being a mongrel about my post. Builders who rub their hands in glee and jack up their prices overnight are not reflecting sudden increases in cost, they are reflecting greed. Good luck with your house.

bitingmidge

17th October 2008, 10:08 AM

[QUOTE=bitingmidge;824966]Overnight? You are willfully being an ashole about my post. Builders who rub their hands in glee and jack up their prices overnight are not reflecting sudden increases in cost, they are reflecting greed. Good luck with your house.

Thanks, and yes it was wilful, but I haven't actually seen any builders wor rub their hands in glee and jack up prices overnight. If prices are being jacked up at the moment, it's to recover lost margins I'm afraid, but I don't think they're being very clever.

Do you actually know any builders who have done this??

I'd be happy to have them "outed".

Let's say they are sitting on an unsold house worth $450,000. Their interest costs would amount to roughly 8 or $900 dollars per week. If they've been sitting on it for say six months, which seems to be about the norm, the interest component is about the same as the first home buyers grant.

If they jack up their price to match, are they being greedy or simply covering costs?

Of course there are times when profits are made, there are also a lot of times when profits don't cover wages. I'll happily unreservedly apologise for being, as you say a mongrel, if you can provide any evidence at all for this gross profiteering that's happening!

Even an advertisement for one house without naming the builder will do.

cheers,

P

Studley 2436

17th October 2008, 11:42 AM

bitingmidge

17th October 2008, 12:56 PM

Calm

17th October 2008, 04:26 PM

Midge I reckon Bank deposits fit the description of "Parking" money pretty well. Not much risk unlikely to make much money from it but you will get most of it back. Inflation is a really good point, if inflation is higher than the interest you are losing money. This is something accounting struggles with sadly so nobody realises the money inflation cost.

................................

Studley

Studley, you are right, the question was about "parking"!

Don't forget you pay tax on interest as well, so if your marginal rate is 30% you are probably about half a percent ahead of inflation at the moment, if you don't spend any of it!

Cheers,

P

I am not sure what you 2 are trying to say so i will do an example of my thoughts.

SUPERANNUATION/SHARES

If you had $200,000 in Superannuation in January 2008 this was in 50% shares - 50% fixed interest (balanced) by now it is probably valued at about $175,000.
If (as i think) the share maket is about 1/2 way down in 12 months it will be valued at about $150,000
If you change it to all fixed interest (say 6%) now in 12 months you will have a value of about $185,500. then return to your 50-50 stagety and you will own 1 1/2 to 2 times as many shares as you do now.

If you had $200,000 in the share market last January you cash it in now for about $150,000 and invest it all in Term deposits of 6% for 12 months the result is $159,000, alternatively if you leave it alone and if (as i think) shares drop another 50% you have $100,000 left.
If in 12 months you then buy back into the market you will purchase $159,000 dollars worth of shares which is 1/3 more than if you hang on to them now.

PROPERTY

If you have a house worth $200,000 in January it is now worth about $185,000 in 2 years with a falling market as (i and other comentators think) the market loses upto 50% of its value the house will be worth $100,000. If you sell the house now invest the money (term deposit) for 2 years at 6% you will have $207,866.
So you can then buy 2 houses at $100,000.

If inflation is at 5, 6, or even 10% it will not effect the fact that your money will be increasing in value whereas in houses or shares it is going down. There is a distinct difference in the amount you have.

A good accountant would tell you that you should sell the family home now for $200,000, rent it back for $240 per week for 2 years, invest the money at 6% and then buy the same house back in 2 years time. - you have not moved, the house you buy back is $100,000 your $200,000 in the bank has earned $12,000 in interest, you paid $24,960 in rent, the tax on your $12,000 is $3,600 so you would have the same house and still have $83,440 in the bank. or less mortgage.

As for the argument that until you sell your shares or cash in your superannuation you haven't lost anything - thats rubbish - technicaly true but the value has fallen and therefore you can never redeem the amount that was there in January 2008.

Here is an example for you of the same thought pattern - you own a investment house for $200,000 getting $240 per week rent or 6.24% return on the investment/value - in a couple of years when the value of the house is $100,000 are you going to tell me you are getting a 12.48% return on your investment.

Sorry but accountants are aware of the calculations .

As for what Kevin07 is douing i think the inevitable will happen and teh mnoney thrown around may only pospone that. What we have seen is only the start and there is a long way to go before this episode is played out. Hang on tight the ride is going to get rough.

Cheers

Studley 2436

18th October 2008, 11:56 AM

Geeze David you are an accountant aren't you? That being so I am surprised you made so many assumptions about future values of stocks and shares but failed to think of the money earning potential of companies.

Putting money into cash deposits fits the description of "parking" very well. Not much risk and not much chance of any real gains.

Right now the Sharemarket is looking very good for future gains. Not so the Real Estate market. So far as the sharemarket goes I think it is an OK time to just be on the sideline and looking for a good opportunity. There will be many there. It might make a lot of sense to run a ruler over things like Fortesque, BHP Billiton and Rio as well as the big four banks, would be shy of the Penny Dreadfuls right now but I think top companies like Wesfarmers have taken a hit and might be good value right now.

According to the rules of Accounting you can't record a profit or loss until it is realised. So if your stocks are down you have no loss until you sell. It is only a paper loss until then. So if it is down the only question is will regain or not. If it won't it is better to sell suffer the loss and put your money somewhere better. It is also good policy to take a profit when things go up. Traders have known this forever.

I said Accountants struggle with inflation and it is true. You have never seen an adjustment in anyone's books for inflation I am sure. Economists like to talk in Real Dollars but Accountants never concern themselves with that.

Making assumptions about the market and what it will do is always risky. Right now I would think a prudent investor would have plenty of cash. So far as the market I don't think it is much of a time to be getting out of Real Estate or Shares. I do think it might be a very good time to be getting into shares but a bad time to get into Real Estate.

Studley

bitingmidge

18th October 2008, 02:25 PM

Here is an example for you of the same thought pattern - you own a investment house for $200,000 getting $240 per week rent or 6.24% return on the investment/value - in a couple of years when the value of the house is $100,000 are you going to tell me you are getting a 12.48% return on your investment.

Sorry but accountants are aware of the calculations .

Well no I'm not going to tell you I'm getting 12.48%, because I'm probably getting more like 50% if you take into account my equity and you allow for capital gain.

Like most who have rental property, I have it for the long term and prices will fluctuate. If you are buying for the short term, and playing it as you suggest, then there's an awful lot of speculation involved!

If, in a couple of years the value of housing across the board has halved (which is beyond the scope of even the most pessimistic forecaster), I'll have a small wager, that you'll still be doing better than having your money in the bank at 0.5%!

Cheers,

P

Calm

18th October 2008, 07:47 PM

.................
Right now the Sharemarket is looking very good for future gains. Not so the Real Estate market. So far as the sharemarket goes I think it is an OK time to just be on the sideline and looking for a good opportunity. There will be many there. It might make a lot of sense to run a ruler over things like Fortesque, BHP Billiton and Rio as well as the big four banks, would be shy of the Penny Dreadfuls right now but I think top companies like Wesfarmers have taken a hit and might be good value right now.
...............................
Making assumptions about the market and what it will do is always risky. Right now I would think a prudent investor would have plenty of cash. So far as the market I don't think it is much of a time to be getting out of Real Estate or Shares. I do think it might be a very good time to be getting into shares but a bad time to get into Real Estate.

Studley

Studley you have an opinion/assumption that shares are going to improve , i say the information i have seen shows that shares may only be halfway down. I have made an assumption on the information i have seen and the behaviour of the government. Do you think if this is as bad as it gets the government would be throwing money around to get people spending or planning billions in infrastructure projects - Dont worry Kevin07 knows it is getting a lot worse yet.

If i am right buying shares now means you are still going to take a hit before they start improving. The point i am trying to make is park your money for at least 12 months. Then go for the shares they should be on there way up or closer to it. Buying now means that when they go down you are still going backwards whereas my suggestion has a better chance of keeping the value of your investment moving upwards. Real estate is going to be a lot slower than shares to react, probably by as much as 5 years. history shows this.

Guess it depends on how you evaluate the information available.

Cheers

Studley 2436

19th October 2008, 12:28 AM

Pretty much agree with you David. The only difference being that you think it the market is all down for the next 12 months and I don't think it is clear. Something important is that the market on average might go down while individual stocks are going up. So a smart investor who is wary enough to spread his risks can find gains while the market falls.

I think it is a good time to be watching and looking for opportunities. There will be some that even if they fall this next 12 months will come back strong on the next rise which will come.

Studley

bitingmidge

19th October 2008, 07:18 AM

One of the odd things I've seen of late was that charity food queues are seeing large increases in demand.

Given that there's been no appreciable hike in unemployment, there must be an awful lot of people who've lost their shirts on the stock market! ;) It's very very strange indeed, specially the way they drive up in their new HSV's!

Another case of appalling reporting practices methinks, like the TV station doing the rounds of the real estate auctions yesterday and gasping at low clearance rates and prices. Where have they been for the last twelve months?

Cheers,

P
:rolleyes:

Metal Head

19th October 2008, 12:25 PM

There must be an awful lot of people who've lost their shirts on the stock market! ;)
Cheers P

Yes we have one across the road - Andre Agassi :D

However I think it was mainly due to eating too many tennis balls if you ask me!!

Regards
MH

Metal Head

19th October 2008, 12:38 PM

Hi,

On a more serious note. We had 4 houses sold in our street about 4/5 months ago which developers had bought (as the houses were bulldozed to make way for new dwellings).

However, only one is having units (2) built on it presently, whilst the other 3 are being sold via estate agents. Maybe the developers/builders have too much work on presently or more likely they need the funds for other things:?

Regards
MH

Toolin Around

19th October 2008, 07:14 PM

Toolin Around

19th October 2008, 07:36 PM

It sounds like you've already made up your mind so I suppose it's useless trying to tell you otherwise.

Trade is not necessary, unles YOU buy into the globalisation nonesense. The fact is countries, villages, individuals have existed quite happily throughout history without trade. Trade is nice, like ice cream, but neither is essential.

Approximately 1/3 of china's gdp is exports. Coal and iron ore were about 55/tonne in 2000, they are now 150/tonne. They won't increase 30% a year anymore but we ain't going back to 50/t either.

Edit: Probably the biggest thing that is different for us is not our links with china but our lack of government debt. The importance of this cannot be overestimated.

I can't speak for anyone else but I read very carefully what is said. Of course I believe what I do. I can't understand why I wouldn't... I offer up what i say because I look for input from others and change what is wrong in what i believe. It just so happens though that what people are saying about China and India aren't compelling enough to me to change my mind at this time.

I suspect China has lost much more than 1/3 of their exports and are going to tighten up as a result - that's human nature. Everyone that says they're going to punch on unabated is at best guessing. And because the world is in uncharted waters their guesses aren't even educated guesses anymore.

Your last comment is for me the most compelling in that Aus has been fairly frugal and has a very low debt. The masses rage against it in the good times and thank god for it in the bad times.

namtrak

20th October 2008, 09:35 AM

The amount of voodoo guessnomics going on at the moment is amazing (not so much this discussion) - but the number of people I sit down with, who have an opinion on the current economic crisis which is largely based on a headline they read, or a few words of 'wisdom' from some shock jock!

I read the Fin. review a bit and if there hasn't been a time in the last 6 months where there haven't been at least two diametrically opposed views on where we are headed then I'll drink monkey spit.

There is a very good article on page 26 highlighting the divergent views on property prices alone. Saul Eslake is reported in the article as suggesting that the property price crisis wont hit Australia anything like it has elsewhere.

Australia has a chronic undersupply of houses (56,000 houses short)
The debt stays with the borrower (if you foreclose in USA the debt reverts to the bank) so we are more responsible with our personal debt management
Mortgage defaults only rose marginally when interest rates were rising, why would they increase when interest rates are falling

He does go onto to say that there are 3 exceptions. Areas where low doc loans were prevalent (Western Sydney); premium property prices will correct and areas where investors are prevalent (large slabs of investment units for example)

There is a graph on the allhomes website (http://www.allhomes.com.au/ah/ah0052?st=y)which neatly shows the property price correction. The graph is a short term property price return for segments of the Canberra market. The South Canberra component has dipped sharply (this is the elite area of Canberra) while areas like Woden Valley are almost running in the opposite direction. To me, this shows that punters are still spending, but are curbing their spending by a few hundred thousand dollars!

So the maxim still stands (buy, buy, buy) but just just do it wisely.

The dividend/price ratio on some of the blue chip chares is around 15%!!! There are not many areas of investment returning 15% on your dough - just need to be able to ride the coaster for a bit is all!

damian

20th October 2008, 10:30 AM

Couple of things.

These are not uncharted economic circumstances. This is a slight variation on what happens every time. This "unprecedented catastrophy" BS is just headlines and hype. I really get fed up when some media tart pulls some obscure statistic and claims this is the "worst drought/flood/economic downturn/bs/bs/bs on record". Only because you fiddled the numbers to make it look that way.

I don't know if the stockmarket has bottomed. Now we have that out of the way consider this:

Do you believe BHP is going to go bankrupt any time soon ? If not it's selling well below it's historical PE ratio and they haven't flagged a downturn in dividends. Consider the same things for the big 4 banks and a few other select blue chip australian companies. I'm not clever enough to pick tops and bottoms but I can tell cheap and dear, and I'm not bad at risky and fairly safe either.

Personal debt in Australia is a disaster, but sucessive federal and state governments in between their otehrwise profound incompetance and corruption have manged to pay down our government debt, and that if nothing else will save us from too much pain.

I don't know how China's exports will go, but I don't think their domestic demand will dry up completely.

Anyway I'm debt free and financially comfortable. I am also amazed I can buy a demonstrator BF2 falcon for $23k on road. Haddn't considered buying a new car till I saw that. :)

Metal Head

21st November 2008, 01:19 PM

Well if Warrens struggling to make money in this market, then what chance have us less mortals got?

Is Warren Buffett losing his touch?

Investors are wondering if Warren Buffett has lost his touch. They are bailing out of Berkshire Hathaway Inc stock and have lost some confidence that the insurance and investment company, run by one of the world's most admired investors since 1965, can pay its debts. Berkshire stock has lost close to half its value since hitting a record high last December, as the company struggles with lower returns at its insurance businesses, the declining value of its stock holdings, and paper losses on derivative contracts. Meanwhile, the cost of protecting Berkshire's "triple-A" rated debt has soared to a level more befitting a "triple-B" or even a junk-rated company. Omaha, Nebraska-based Berkshire has nearly 80 businesses - from car insurance to carpeting, clothing, food, kitchen utensils, and manufactured housing - and owns tens of billions of dollars of stock. Buffett's empire is diversified enough so that at any given moment many parts are unlikely to run on all cylinders. "Everything you're seeing that affects other companies is eventually going to catch up with Berkshire," said Vahan Janjigian, author of the 2008 book "Even Buffett Isn't Perfect". "I'm not saying Berkshire is not well-run, but that even well-run companies will be hit in a severe recession". Buffett, 78, was not available for comment.

Berkshire Class A shares fell as low as $74,100 a share on Thursday, their lowest level since August 2003. That's down 51 percent from their record $151,650 set last December 11. It's also down 34 percent since Berkshire said on November 7 that lower insurance returns as well as investment losses led to a 77 percent drop in third-quarter profit, the fourth straight quarterly decline. Operating earnings were down 18 percent. Berkshire ended September with $33.37 billion in cash. "We're buying Berkshire like crazy. It was our largest position, and we have made it much larger in the last two weeks," said Whitney Tilson, managing partner at T2 Partners LLC, a hedge fund firm. "Investors are looking at the derivative exposure, seeing Berkshire marking losses, and it reminds them of AIG and other companies whose derivative exposures got them into trouble," he added. "They are coming to the insane conclusion that Berkshire faces similar risks".

'UNUSUAL' MARKET

In Thursday afternoon trading, the shares were down $2,760, or 3.3 percent, to $81,240 a share on the New York Stock Exchange. The cost of protecting $10 million of Berkshire debt against default for five years rose to $490,000 annually on Thursday from $294,000 a week ago and $31,000 at the start of 2008, according to Markit. "We're in an unusual time," said Peter Schiff, editor of Schiff's Insurance Observer. "It's like comparing a person having trouble making mortgage payments with a billionaire. The financial crisis affects them, but not in the same way".

Berkshire could have to pay as much as $37.04 billion between 2019 and 2027 under some derivative contracts if the Standard & Poor's 500 index .SPX and three other stock indexes are lower than when Berkshire entered the contracts. It obtained about $4.85 billion of premiums upfront. At September 30, Berkshire had written down $6.73 billion on the contracts. Losses have almost certainly mounted since then. In October alone, Berkshire shareholder equity fell $9 billion, or 7.5 percent. Buffett has said he expects the contracts to be profitable, distinguishing them from the "financial weapons of mass destruction" that he labeled other derivatives. Berkshire also ended September with $10.78 billion in potential liabilities tied to various credit events, such as junk bond defaults, up from $4.66 billion at year-end 2007. Moody's Investors Service said the global junk bond default rate could rise to 10.4 percent by the end of 2009 from 2.8 percent in October. With a typical junk bond yielding more than 20 percent, new financing is essentially nonexistent. "Based on his 50-year track record selling insurance, I have a great deal of confidence he is selling these at the right price," Tilson said. "The critical thing is he does not have to post cash collateral until there are actual defaults". A credit rating downgrade would likely not be material. Berkshire would have to post "nominal" additional collateral on derivatives of "far below 1 percent of assets" if Berkshire lost its "triple-A" ratings, Buffett's assistant, Jackie Wilson, said. It was posting no such collateral as of Sept 30, when Berkshire assets totaled $281.7 billion.

Buffett has been out of step with the markets before. After missing the late 1990s tech bubble, he gave himself a "D" for capital allocation in 1999, when Berkshire's book value barely budged, and the S&P 500, including dividends, rose 21 percent. Berkshire fared better in six of the subsequent eight years. "Earnings of Berkshire's operating businesses will undoubtedly decline given the worldwide economic downturn," T2 Partners' Tilson said. "However, these businesses remain enormously profitable, and will almost certainly continue to be". Schiff, of the Insurance Observer, expects Buffett will actually find new opportunities to win business or make acquisitions, in part because many insurance rivals are scrambling for capital. Several are applying to become bank holding companies to be eligible for the government's $700 billion financial rescue. "When insurers lose capital, you're going to be more conservative with how much business you write," Schiff said. "Berkshire doesn't have this problem because its balance sheet is so strong. What they own may be worth less, but they get more opportunities to buy things at cheap prices".

prozac

23rd November 2008, 10:22 PM

Some have forgotten the title to the thread - a safe place to park money.

Banks are obviously the worst investment but they are now a safe place to sit and watch things unfold when you're in a situation somilar to mine- one where the cash is very mobile and in an easily accessable state. The banks are just that.

Many are yelling to BUY BUY BUY right now. But I'm a patient non-gambler. I will wait and watch how the picture unfolds. If I see what I believe is a good opportunity I will act on it. But I need to have a clear picture first - something no one has right now.

Maybe I won't make bucket loads at this very moment cause I won't gamble but I won't lose either - there's two side to every coin. I'm also a lousy poker player. Only ever bet when I had something worth betting on. So when I bet everyone usually went out.

Some here think I'm in a panic - wrong. I simply saw serious problems that were founded on what is transpiring now and what has happened historically and wanted to make sure what I have stays mine. Up till a few days ago I viewed the banks here as a liability compard to other banks around the world - now they're all on a level playng field so there's no reason to move.

I left a biggish chunk of cash in a cash management account that my stock-broker sweeps share transactions to and from. I made comment 12-15 months back in a thread in "My Rural Block" that I expected the stock markets to tumble. I even told my broker more recently that the All Ords would go through 4000 and maybe 3000. Well we are nearly there.

Am I a guru, NO WAY! But I do read and what I read back then about what was building in the USA with these housing loans. Basically something that wasn't going to be fixed by taking a pill (read bail-out). I could have got it wrong, after all the stock market is like betting. For what it is worth I think we will have a big shock in the news one morning and the markets will dump, and brokers will be jumping out of windows for a week or 2. The dust will settle and it will go up again.

In the meantime money is going to start hitting the housing market and we are in the early throws of a housing run-up. Property is what I do know about. I don't know a great deal about shares and I am happiest not when i make a lot but when I get out of something before it hits the skids. I reckon that is a bigger thrill, knowing that you just saved your money.

Where would I park my money? I took it out of a Macquarie Cash Management account about 6 weeks back and plonked it in a boring account with CBA. I don't trust Macquarie. Put your money in a real bank.

Shedhand

23rd November 2008, 10:35 PM

I left a biggish chunk of cash in a cash management account that my stock-broker sweeps share transactions to and from. I made comment 12-15 months back in a thread in "My Rural Block" that I expected the stock markets to tumble. I even told my broker more recently that the All Ords would go through 4000 and maybe 3000. Well we are nearly there.

Am I a guru, NO WAY! But I do read and what I read back then about what was building in the USA with these housing loans. Basically something that wasn't going to be fixed by taking a pill (read bail-out). I could have got it wrong, after all the stock market is like betting. For what it is worth I think we will have a big shock in the news one morning and the markets will dump, and brokers will be jumping out of windows for a week or 2. The dust will settle and it will go up again.

In the meantime money is going to start hitting the housing market and we are in the early throws of a housing run-up. Property is what I do know about. I don't know a great deal about shares and I am happiest not when i make a lot but when I get out of something before it hits the skids. I reckon that is a bigger thrill, knowing that you just saved your money.

Where would I park my money? I took it out of a Macquarie Cash Management account about 6 weeks back and plonked it in a boring account with CBA. I don't trust Macquarie. Put your money in a real bank.Mate, if I had a million bucks I'd be buying up as many Blue Chip stocks as I could. The fundamentals are sound and most are still yielding good annual divs of around 6% part and fully franked. Very, very undervalued now. Banks especially. DAHIKT!!! The emerging economies still want our resources and they are still growing at or near double figure annual growth. Warren Buffet is buying everything he can get his hands on. Keep an eye on the Lion Nathan bid for CCA (Coca Cola Amatil) This stock is Buffet's long time favourite. CCA has weathered the global crisis well becasue of the unique nature of its business. makes it a natural target for take-over. I'm not an expert but I know a little about investment. A mate of mine turned 10,400 into 250,000 in 8 years from a tip of mine. I'm NOT a financial adviser, I just read a lot and follow the stock market.
Cheers

Studley 2436

23rd November 2008, 10:53 PM

Certainly is a good time to be watching stocks and looking for a time it seems good to get in. I wouldn't say you have to do it today and it might be very good to just sit on the side for the moment until it settles down a bit.

None the less there are going to be some good opportunities to make some money by the educated investor.

Studley

prozac

24th November 2008, 11:42 PM

Mate, if I had a million bucks I'd be buying up as many Blue Chip stocks as I could. The fundamentals are sound and most are still yielding good annual divs of around 6% part and fully franked. Very, very undervalued now. Banks especially. DAHIKT!!! The emerging economies still want our resources and they are still growing at or near double figure annual growth. Warren Buffet is buying everything he can get his hands on. Keep an eye on the Lion Nathan bid for CCA (Coca Cola Amatil) This stock is Buffet's long time favourite. CCA has weathered the global crisis well becasue of the unique nature of its business. makes it a natural target for take-over. I'm not an expert but I know a little about investment. A mate of mine turned 10,400 into 250,000 in 8 years from a tip of mine. I'm NOT a financial adviser, I just read a lot and follow the stock market.
Cheers

Your mate made a brazilian from one of your tips Shedhand. Just wondering if you took your own advice and did the same?

Shedhand

25th November 2008, 08:36 PM

Your mate made a brazilian from one of your tips Shedhand. Just wondering if you took your own advice and did the same?
Unfortunately, no. By the time I was able to (and had the money) I was in a sensitive government job I would have had a serious conflict of interest. I could probably got away with it but I don't like living looking over my shoulder. :no: I'm too honest and is why I'll never have a fortune...:( BTW my mate bought 250000 shares at an average of 4.5 cents each and sold them for $1.05 each. When I first came across them they were .004 cents each but I ignored them.:doh:

Metal Head

27th November 2008, 01:15 PM

Major British retailer Woolworths has gone into administration, the BBC has reported. But I don't think there is anything to worry about the Australian one as they are not affiliated.

prozac

28th November 2008, 10:44 PM

Unfortunately, no. By the time I was able to (and had the money) I was in a sensitive government job I would have had a serious conflict of interest. I could probably got away with it but I don't like living looking over my shoulder. :no: I'm too honest and is why I'll never have a fortune...:( BTW my mate bought 250000 shares at an average of 4.5 cents each and sold them for $1.05 each. When I first came across them they were .004 cents each but I ignored them.:doh:
Bugga SH.

prozac

28th November 2008, 10:52 PM

I bought some Drillsearch shares this week. Yeah I know you'll all say I'm going against what I preach but a parcel of 20million were placed on the market and this depressed the price. I topped up by buying 2 mill at 2.2 cents. Drillsearch (DLS) has just gone through a big restructure and a merger with Greater Artesian Oil and Gas and now is debt free with money in the bank and some good leases with good farmin partners. I'd be happy if they went to 20 or 30 cents.
Look, this is only a gamble so nobody sink their last sheckles into it. Just thought some of you might want something to watch whilst we discuss such things.

Fuzzie

29th November 2008, 07:07 PM

I haven't been watching this forum much the last couple of weeks, but I've seriously stressed out reading about the US S&P 500 elsewhere. A lot of charts are floating around showing how rolling market returns form normal distributions around a generally small but positive percentage return, with many years falling somewhere to the south and just as many falling somewhere to the north, but all records going back to the late 19th century still fall within a 3 standard deviations of the curve (as do Australian returns), EXCEPT for the S&P500's current performance which is showing 5 year returns way off into negative 4 sigma territory.

Most things you come across in life can be mapped into the 99% of things that happen inside the 3 sigma limits of a normal distribution. A 4 sigma deviation is really way off into uncharted territory. Some people think it can't get worse, the market has bottomed and the recovery is underway, some think since we are so far out on the 4 sigma limb already, the possibility exists for a further 50% drop before the recovery starts. Only time will tell. Hold or draw? Just like poker.

Getting back to the original theme of this thread, since the US (and thus perhaps the rest of the world?) already is in uncharted waters, it does seem prudent to consider self preservation as well as the opportunities.

Young and have a job? No problem. I didn't notice the 60's credit squeeze. The 70's, 80's and 2000 crashes didn't really phase me. Now it's 2008 and I'm looking at retirement, I'm not so blasé this time round.

I've been of the opinion that I haven't personally got the contacts and talent or perhaps interest to time the markets myself, I'd rather just squirrel it away and be out there making something rather than watching the trading screens, but it seems sensible at this stage to have a worst case scenario plan in place, just in case. Either way, at my age I'm thinking it isn't going to be much fun waiting 25 to 40 years to see the full recovery of my super balance.

Toolin Around

20th December 2008, 02:14 PM

m2c1Iw

20th December 2008, 08:21 PM

OK! so know that we know none of the supposed "experts" in the news got much if anything right with respect to this worldwide meltdown... I suspect they were outright lying to the populous to sucker us into trying to buy our way out of trouble. All it appears to be doing to me is causing the pyramid schemes of the world they call the economy to swell to gargantuan size and that's about it - but that's another thread.

What do you figger... Just asking for opinions (remembering opinions are neither right nor wrong they're just opinions)... you know food for thought... Where do you think in the world will the turn around occur first.

What say you.

Hi TA,
Do you ask where and when?

Since you started this thread much has happened the Brits and parts of EU seem to be in as much strife as the USA as the service based economy is being hit hard.
So where, well I think it has to start in the US 25% of the global consumption has to crank up before the rest of us can go again.
I have not seen a lot of comment regarding China of late what was a 8-9% growth prediction seems to have slipped to 6-7 but who knows probably not even the Chinese officials.

As for when, m2c is we are still on the way down so when a recovery will occur depends now on unemployment rates again in the USA but I think at least 12 months. One also wonders how many more shocks, scandels and duds are yet to be uncovered.

While the low doc loans triggered this problem I have been wondering about balance of payments and the impact of large government deficits that have been and continue to be run up. There appears to be a situation where developed service economies are running on huge trade debt while developing countries are using trade to turn a surplus. Where do we go in the future tricky trade barriers currency revaluations I would think there has to be limits.

OK I'm now ready for my back yard guessonomic theory to be shot down:D

As an aside have you been watching BHP over the last few weeks. A mate of mine bought a bundle at 22.50ish and I told him he was mad. Shows you what I know:rolleyes:

Regards
Mike

Gra

20th December 2008, 08:38 PM

While the low doc loans triggered this problem

Actually, it wasn't low doc loans that caused this problem, that shoe is yet to drop......

m2c1Iw

20th December 2008, 08:54 PM

Actually, it wasn't low doc loans that caused this problem, that shoe is yet to drop......

In those immortal words........please explain :U