Sanding estapol - what grit, and why?

[doctorpaul]

Hi all, have just stained some timber,and put the first coat of wattyl estapol gloss on it (water based)

It looks a treat, even after just the one coat

According to the bottle, i need to sand it (but the retards who wrote the label did not say what grit to use!), and then reapply,

What grit should i use (i will be using a belt sander)

I am also worried that i may get scratches on it.

Is there any harm in just doing a second coat over the first?

Do i sand the second coat?

How do i get it silky smooth if i so wish?

Many thanks!

[endgrain]

Hi doc, Nasty stuff that estapol, (wear a mask in plenty of O2) not that wattyl is a bad product, we've used the commercial cellulose lacquer and sealer for 30 years, :ohyaaa:it's just designed for the quick and easy/ handyman market. Similar to 2 pac spray paint and both r really toxic.
Q's
1. what is the application? what type of timber?
2. are you doing this in a dust free environment?
3. do you have access to heat lamps?
4. are you brushing or spraying (or throwing) it on?

cheers

[RufflyRustic]

Hi DoctorPaul

:oDo not use a belt sander to sand the coat of estapol!! You'll only end up taking off that coat and most likely the stain as well. The belt sander is way too powerful for this particular job.

Without any further details, I'd suggest you lightly cut back the estapol with 320 or 400 grit by hand.

As Engrain said, do wear your Personal Protection Equipment (PPE) while doing so. Gloves, a good dust mask, etc.

Cheers
Wendy

[doctorpaul]

What about a really fine grit, and a light belt sand?

What about just another coat?

Not sure what timber it is, one is a hardwood, the other a softwood

Also, is there anything i need to do after the second coat to get it smooth?

[Mollywood]

I do a light rub with steel wool between coats.
If the second coat is the final coat, it won't need anything done to it.

Ditto what the others said about the belt sander. You'll wreck it if you do that.
Just the fine grit sand paper or the steel wool is all that is needed.
:;

[Mollywood]

About your question regarding not sanding but just doing another coat.
After the first coat is dry you'll notice that if you run your hand over it, it will feel a little rough. The light sand with fine grit or steel wool is to smooth it off.
Do a section with steel wool (or sandpaper) and compare the feel of the sanded section with the non sanded section and you see the difference.
The second coat will come up smooth. Don't sand after the final coat, you'll just scratch it.
Hope this is clear and not confusing. :rolleyes:

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

BTW, that's OOO or preferably OOOO grade steel wool. (Not household scouring pads! :oo:)

[Master Splinter]

What about a really fine grit, and a light belt sand?



No. No, no, no ,no, no. No. Put down that belt sander. Put it down. On the floor...now step away.....

You dont really want to remove any estapol - you just want to take the high points of the estapol coat down to the level of the low points. No more. You certainly don't want to touch the timber underneath.

Get some 320 grit and a hand sanding block and spend a pleasant 20 minutes hand sanding the finish. It'll probably take less time than getting the belt sander out, putting in a new belt, getting the extension cord, connecting everything, oh-so-oh-so carefully sanding, vacuuming up the dust and putting it away.

And it's certainly faster than starting from the beginning again if you slip....

[Tony Clarke]

Interesting that you have stained solid timber (if that is what you have). Normally timber is stained for one of 3 reasons – to make it look like an expensive timber, to match some existing furniture or to make furniture pieces of the same timber but which have differing tones, look identical. Otherwise try to pick timber of colour you want – if this is possible.
Bear in mind that sanding stained timber could easily wear through to the timber beneath, especially if you sand an outside corner.
I have always advocated using a worn out piece of abrasive paper (less chance of leaving scratch marks) no rougher than 180grit but not too fine say 300grit max, as it will clog more easily. If you have no worn stuff, fold & rub the new against itself for a similar softening effect – and keep flicking it to remove lacquer dust. Don’t forget mask – (PPE).
The first coat of virtually any form of varnish/lacquer lifts the grain that was originally sanded flat so sanding the first coat achieves two things – smoothing off the grain “stubble” and taking off the gloss finish, which make a better key for the second coat to adhere to.
A hint for the second coat – it will get semi-dry more quickly than the first coat even whilst you are applying it, so work as quick as you can yet remain with quality brush work and avoid “touching up’ as it might show when dry.
The result from the second coat should be appreciably better surface shine and smoother and you could stop there but if there are more brush marks or runs – carefully rub them back and apply a third coat – especially on surfaces that will be seen and get the wear!
Hope it went well.
Tony

[doctorpaul]

Okay, ive put the belt sander down

But, ive just bought some 400 grit for my random orbital sander.

Am i allowed to use this dad? Or do i have to put it away with the belt sander ;)

[daninjt]

Maaaaate, put the ROS down on the floor to keep the belt sander company.

Just a very light sanding by hand is needed. hardly even rubbing, just run it over the surface to knock off the rough bits. Easy as.

[Chesand]

What the others have all said about a light hand sand and make sure that you wipe off the dust before re-coating.

A few years ago before I graduated to other finishes I made a 4 piece wall unit finished with Estapol and you can get a good finish if you follow the advice given above.

[Chris Parks]

1200 wet and dry, it will come up really well and the top coat will be like glass.

[endgrain]

Okay, ive put the belt sander down

But, ive just bought some 400 grit for my random orbital sander.

Am i allowed to use this dad? Or do i have to put it away with the belt sander ;)

Grrr :(( What is it about quacks these days? (One of reasons you walk into a surgery with an ear ache and walk out minus a kidney.)
Now would you please answer the bleedin' question and explain what
"IT" (http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.addamsfamily.com/addams/itt-02.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.addamsfamily.com/album09.html&h=336&w=448&sz=54&tbnid=_bNqaXMFKT4J::&tbnh=95&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcousin%2Bit%2Baddams%2Bfamils%2Bpics&hl=en&usg=__ztYPkNyupGpYG6rta2QosfqGZGY=&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&cd=1)is ? e.g. if the "stick" is a bit of mdf with a twig thru it then we're all sniffin' the wrong bone (surgically sucked in) however if the materials are birds eye blackwood with satin wood inlay then at least we know the stringed beans are going to a good cause?

Cheers

[rod1949]

As the others have said don't use a belt sander... you will get a toe and heel effect. Using a gloss will show every blemish no matter how minute.

With the risk of get me head bitten off I'd be using 180 or 220 grit the white aluminium oxide, either by hand or a small quality Palm Sander and cut back so the whole surface has been dulled. To remove all the blemishes and to get a silky smooth finish you will have to repeat the process several times. And let it well and truly dry between each recoat. Also spraying is the only way to go.

[MICKYG]

Docpaul

Do not use the belt sander as you have been told. Hand sand is all that is required with 400 grit paper or finer or better still use the steel wool trick. Have sprayed quite a bit of estapol and always use the steel wool trick, works a treat. Once applied there are slight patches of roughness which you will feel when you rub your hand over the finished area. I think there is gum or resin which comes out of the timber which causes this(not sure). If you use the steel wool 000 or 0000 over the finish before applying the final coat you will get a very nice finish.

Can be seen at http://gallery.groov-e.com

under woodwork.

Mostly satin finish applied.

Regards Mike:2tsup:

[doctorpaul]

Thanks guys, i got some 400 grit, and only three wipes of this was needed, and then ragged down with an old tea towel and turps.

Whacked a second coat on and it looks brilliant.

After the second coat, i have heard of people using really really fine steel wool (and something else i think)

Is this any use for estapol, or am i thinking down the wrong path?

[cellist]

Thanks guys, i got some 400 grit, and only three wipes of this was needed, and then ragged down with an old tea towel and turps.

Whacked a second coat on and it looks brilliant.

After the second coat, i have heard of people using really really fine steel wool (and something else i think)

Is this any use for estapol, or am i thinking down the wrong path?

Right path!
My own technique with any polyurethane (oil based is my preference):
Dilute the stuff with about 10-15% turps. I measure that amount by using a straight-sided container (see through) and measuring the height with a ruler (!). Then just take 10-15% and add that to the height measurement.

OK...now about application: First, I sand my timber to about 280. I know, I know...that's overkill...but I like the slippery feel of the timber with the first coat.

Interesting to me is the fact that first coats tend to take longer to dry than subsequent ones. I apply it with a cloth - not a brush. I just pour an amount of the diluted mixture into an ice cream container and then get an old baby nappy. Nice, soft cloth and (for good design reasons) highly absorbent. :2tsup:

Just wipe on with a folded cloth....not too much at a time, and that's it! Great control and quick.

There is a relationship with french polishing here....the added solvent does a couple of useful things. First, it flows better. But it also dries faster. Further, if you apply another coat while the preceding one is still "green" you really don't have to sand. Like epoxies, there is a chemical bond with polyurethane. If it's bone dry, you need to key the surface, and that's where the 400 grit paper comes in handy. Haven't tried steel wool for the between-coat rub, but will do so on a run of 14 tables I have ready tonight.

The diluted coats will be thinner than if you were to apply the stuff without the turps. So you might want to build more coats overall.

After 2-3 coats (I'm presently using Feast Watson Satinproof....a great product in my opinion) I let it dry off for a day. Then out comes the oooo steel wool and some Danish Teak Oil. I rub the surface with the oil and steel wool and then dry it off. A note of caution: oils like this on rags are potentially prone to spontaneous combustion, so put used rags in a bucket of water and then dry them out before you chuck 'em.

Finally, I use Gilly Stephenson's wax/polish over the top. Wow....what a finish! Everyone who sees and touches the furniture I make says 'wow'.

See my website for some images of the tables, and I'll attach an image here of the top of a recent one I did in Victorian Ash.

Hope that helps!

Big Mike

[endgrain]

"an old tea towel", "it looks brill", "am i thinking down the wrong path?"

Pictorial evidence would be pragmatic doc, unless ya tea towel has been "crocheted".

[Willbill]

To answer the question "Is there any harm in just doing a second coat over the first?" If you don't cut back between coats the top coats will peel of sooner or later.