The dissapearing finish

[Howdya do that]

Attached pictures are of two coats of organoil danish oil followed by ubeaut traditional wax on rock maple. I went away for a week and it looks the finish has evaporated.

What happened and what should I do now:?

[RufflyRustic]

What The????????????????? so is there any finish left on top or has all gone?

Cheers
Wendy

[BrettC]

Hmm,

I'll preceed this with saying that others can give better advice but can you clarify what you did?


Firstly what grit did you sand to?
How was the oil applied?
Did you 'wet' sand?
Did you flood with oil and then remove the excess after 15 mins or so?
What was the time between coats?
When did you add the beeswax?
Did you light sand between coats?
What temps were you dealing with?
Personally I steer clear of Organoil but it does have a nice smell :U having said that I'm told you can get a good finish from the stuff, I just haven't tried.

My most likely thought is the saying that you should oil once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year and once a year for life.


Cheers.

[Honorary Bloke]

My guess is you waxed it too soon and it broke down the wax. Organoil wants at least 2 weeks curing before waxing. :)

[Claw Hama]

I'd agree with Bob, especialy if you have very dry timber, I woud do a minimum of three coats or go untill you have built up a good surface coat then leave it for a week to cure before waxing. If you want to clean rest of the wax off I would use more Organoil on a cloth. The Organoil will melt the remaining wax and clean it up.
When you say Organoil did you mean Organoil Danish Oil??

[Howdya do that]

Hmm,

I'll preceed this with saying that others can give better advice but can you clarify what you did?


Firstly what grit did you sand to? 400
How was the oil applied? Brushed on, wipe off excess
Did you 'wet' sand? First coat
Did you flood with oil and then remove the excess after 15 mins or so? See above
What was the time between coats? 24 hours
When did you add the beeswax? 3 days after last coat
Did you light sand between coats? No
What temps were you dealing with? Last week when it was extremely cold
Personally I steer clear of Organoil but it does have a nice smell :U having said that I'm told you can get a good finish from the stuff, I just haven't tried.
The boxes I have done with it are excellent
My most likely thought is the saying that you should oil once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year and once a year for life.
The label says Strictly 2 coats only

Cheers.


My guess is you waxed it too soon and it broke down the wax. Organoil wants at least 2 weeks curing before waxing. :)

This could be my problem:2tsup:


I'd agree with Bob, especialy if you have very dry timber, I woud do a minimum of three coats or go untill you have built up a good surface coat then leave it for a week to cure before waxing. If you want to clean rest of the wax off I would use more Organoil on a cloth. The Organoil will melt the remaining wax and clean it up.
When you say Organoil did you mean Organoil Danish Oil??

Yes, Danish Oil. I cant remember the exact wording but the label is very stern on 2 coats only, I wonder why?.

[Howdya do that]

What The????????????????? so is there any finish left on top or has all gone?

Cheers
Wendy

The Jarrah is fine Wendy, Just the Rock Maple:?

[RufflyRustic]

Wierd, but good to know, especially as I have some special rock maple on hand.

cheers
Wendy

[martrix]

keep putting coats on until is no longer appears thirsty. Leave a day in between coats, 2 if its below 10c. Its the figuring in the maple thats soaking up the oil.

[Howdya do that]

thanks Matrix,
So is the number of coats is irrelevant?

[martrix]

what grit did you finish sand up to?

[Howdya do that]

what grit did you finish sand up to?

400

[martrix]

Just for the record, IMHO I wouldn't use organoil if you paid me.

Anyway, their website recommends sanding up to a minimum of 600, and as they say, the finer the better.

Another give away as to why I dont like it is that it says it will never go off on the shelf, which also means it wont really cure on your furniture either. Probably one of the reasons as to why they recommend only 2 coats max because it will forever remain tacky if there is too much on there.

If I was you, I would cut your losses and get some Cabots Danish oil which is basically a thinned Poly. Stinks to hell but is a good simple finish which you can apply as many coats as you like. It does go off in the tin however if there is too much air in the tin, like when its half full. If you want to do a glossy finish, you can do the last coat with Gloss Wipe on Poly.

This finish is just Cabots Danish oil, probably about 4 coats and rubbed back with 3m Microfine sponge in between coats.

http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product_image.php?imageid=6919

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=80191&stc=1&d=1218344587

[Howdya do that]

I think your right Matrix about it not going off on your project either.
Could I apply the cabots product over the top?

Is there a place on the net where I can get the 3m sponge.

After I buy the cabots danish oil how do you know when the product has gone off:?

[martrix]

I think your right Matrix about it not going off on your project either.
Could I apply the cabots product over the top?

Is there a place on the net where I can get the 3m sponge.

After I buy the cabots danish oil how do you know when the product has gone off:?

I think you can safely apply cabots over the top. I would give it a thorough wipe down with mineral turps and leave it for a few days. Then rub it back lightly with 240>320> and finish with 600.

Using the Cabots is easy. A quick blast with the compressed air to clear the dust and throw the tin of oil at it. Basically you can slop it on any way you like, as any excess is wiped off after 15-20 minutes. Wiping off the excess properly is what determines how neat your finish is, so you need lots of clean white rags and some disposable gloves to keep your hands clean.

If you leave it too long before you start wiping it off and its become very tacky, simply brush on a light coat of oil and it will instantly soften again, allowing you to wipe it off. Always finish your last wipe off strokes with the grain.

Always hang your rags up individually to dry. Better to be safe than sorry. It looks like a nice piece your working on with some nice figure in that maple.

As for the 3M Microfine sponges, the only place I could find them online, was an Ebay store in the states. Im sure you could find them at a decent auto paint supplies store if you do some sniffing around.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3M-2600-Softback-Sanding-Sponge-Microfine-02600-Box-20_W0QQitemZ200213582678QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116

[ubeaut]

With any Organoil product you need to follow the instructions to the letter if it says 600 grit or more they mean up to 2000 grit which is what they use in their demo's.

Sand usually in all cases means with a Random Orbital Sander. It can be done by hand but not very well and almost impossible on a table. Orbital sander doesn't really cut the mustard either.

As for reapplying now I would give it a really good wash down with turpentine and some clean rag as the Traditional Wax may stop the other oil from setting off. For that matter so might the Organoil. I would stick with the Organoil for further applications as it will definitely be compatible with what's on there already.

As for waxing over Organoil there is no problem with this. Just don't apply any wax to it until the it is dead dry and there is no hint of the Organoil aromatics. This can be anywhere from weeks to months and is a reason why many dislike the product and just as many love it.

The aromatics (smell) is basically off gassing the natural oils in the product and will keep most waxes soft and possibly draw then into the finish. Which appears to be what has happened here. On the other hand, waxing over a finish that isn't properly cured can also stop or dramatically retard the curing process as it is sealing the original finish from the air

Have you actually tried giving the surface of the timber a good hard buffing with a clean soft rag? If not give it a go before anything else and see if it improves at all. It's quite possible it will.

Rule of thumb for me as to when to apply wax:


Over a shellac: depending on amount of coats any where from a day to a week after application.
Over French Polish: Never. Unless you're a poor French polisher or want a special effect. If done correctly it's too good to bugger up with wax.
Over Nitro or other lacquer: After a week.
Over Polyurethane: At least a week or more or when the surface feels hard and no longer feels rubbery.
Over most Danish Oils: After all applications have completely dried for a few weeks.
Over ordinary oiled surfaces: When all traces of oil are completely gone and the surface is dead dry. By dead dry I mean dead dry not even a hint of there ever being oil applied. Most oiled surface can take a life time of finishing to achieve the end result and shouldn't need waxing as that look being sought should be dull to soft satin finish.
Over any Organoil product: Up to a month or more - Minimum of a couple of weeks. Wait till the smell has gone and the surface has dulled dramatically and in most cases it will.
Over raw timber: Straight after sanding to 800 grit or above. Ideally over a really weak shellac sanding sealer which has been sanded to your highest grit abrasive 1200 or above. Further applications of wax every couple of days for a week and weekly for a month, then as needed for repair and upkeep.

Think that's just about covered it all.

Cheers - Neil :U

[Tex B]

Thanks Neil. Very helpful tips. I've heard two weeks for Danish Oil, but sounds like that should be the minimum.

Tex

[Howdya do that]

Thanks Neil, very much appreciated.

Martrix, I'll chuck the can at my next project and send you the pics:D

[Howdya do that]

:bump:

I tried removing what wax might be left with the danish oil and this didn't appear to work 2 days later I tried Methelated spirits, more Danish oil, same result:doh:
Please excuse me if my terminology is poor but i'll try to explain a bit more.

It has blotches or patches all over it, I tried taking more photo's but it just doesn't stand out. The best example is the picture of the leg on page 1. You can see shiny, darker looking, horizontal lines, this looks to me like a grain pattern but some of the patches on the wider timber are "cloud shaped"


Should I try some sort of stain to get an eveness? It seems like such a pity to stain what was beautiful timber until I stuffed it up but it looks like crap:C

[ubeaut]

You should have washed it down with turpentine as per my above post.

As for reapplying now I would give it a really good wash down with turpentine and some clean rag as the Traditional Wax may stop the other oil from setting off. For that matter so might the Organoil. I would stick with the Organoil for further applications as it will definitely be compatible with what's on there already.

You can't wash wax off or anything else for that matter with a finish (Danish Oil) You might just as well trying to wash grease off polyurethane with with coat of white paint. Waste of time and won't work.

Metheyated spirits was also a complete waste of time as it isn't compatible with the wax, which by then would have been firmly locked in by the Danish Oil you applied over it and metho isn't compatible with the Danish oil either so all you are doing is compounding the problem and making it more and more worse.

Staining won't help at all. It will only make it worse and probably make the dull bits stand out even more than they do now. Wast of time doing anything much more than sanding it right back and starting again as anything else will only add to the problems.

Even if you sand it sight back it would be wise to continue using the Organ Oil as I doubt you will be able to sand back far enough to get rid of it all. Follow instructions for Organ Oil to the letter and listen to those who know when they give you advice. Very seldom will you get bad advice on here.

Cheers - Neil

[Howdya do that]

If you want to clean rest of the wax off I would use more Organoil on a cloth. The Organoil will melt the remaining wax and clean it up.



I think you can safely apply cabots over the top. I would give it a thorough wipe down with mineral turps and leave it for a few days.

Thanks for your help and constructive critism Neil:?
But then again you are the BOSS.

[Claw Hama]

Hi guys, I often use danish oil and 0000 steel wool to clean up all sorts of finishes old and new. Steel wool and turps would work as well, the oil and turps are just a lubriant. I thought the cloth might have been abrasive enough on the new wax and oil. Sory if I caused you any extra grief Hdt.
Take Neils advice of course, he is the God!!

[Howdya do that]

No need to apologise Claw Hama. I appreciate you trying to help.

[ubeaut]

But then again you are the BOSSToo right I am, The Bloody Old Sheeit Stirrer ( or Shellac Seller) take your pick


Take Neils advice of course, he is the God!! That's GOD as in Great Old Dude.


Originally Posted by Claw Hama http://mt0.images.woodworkforums.com/woodworkforums/images/button2/viewpost.gif (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?p=784642#post784642)
If you want to clean rest of the wax off I would use more Organoil on a cloth. The Organoil will melt the remaining wax and clean it up.It may melt the waxmay) but it won't remove it. If anything it will dilute it a little and spread it around it won't take it off. It will still be there on the surface only now it'll be locked in with the new application of oil, which will compound the problem. (


Originally Posted by martrix http://mt0.images.woodworkforums.com/woodworkforums/images/button2/viewpost.gif (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?p=784952#post784952) I think you can safely apply cabots over the top. I would give it a thorough wipe down with mineral turps and leave it for a few days.As Matrix said,"I think you can safely apply Cabots." It's possible there could have been a compatibility problem. This is why I said: stick with the Organoil for further applications as it will definitely be compatible with what's on there already. As Matrix rightly said, and I also said: give it a really good wash down with turpentine and some clean rag as the Traditional Wax may stop the other oil from setting off.
A few of basics worth noting.


If in doubt read all instructions and follow them (preferably) to the letter. They're written by the manufacturer so people won't muck it up and complain.
Don't try and improve an ordinary finish by waxing it. Wax is only ever at it's best when when used over a good finish or used as a finish in it's own right.
If a finish stuffs up, re finish it with the same finish, but first retrace your steps and see what you did wrong.
If a finish stuffs up rub it out and start again. Either with the same product and the instructions or with a different product and the instructions.
Don't try to fix one stuffed up finish with an different finish it never works and if it does it will inevitably go wrong somewhere down the track because of miss matched finishes.
If you want to put anything over wax make sure you thoroughly wash off all traces of the wax with turpentine.
One of the few finishes that can be used successfully over wax is shellac. It'll stick to just about anything. But you still need to wash off as much wax as possible with turpentine before applying the shellac.

The above are just the tip of a massive, finishing iceberg.

There are literally hundreds, if not thousands more basic things to do with finishing that could be put down here, but much of it comes down to common sense. However, when it comes to problems it almost always comes down to knowing your product and how to use it. Very seldom is a fault caused by the product. Almost always it's the fault of the user, either in preparation, application or or finishing off.

Cheers - Neil :U

[Howdya do that]

OK,

Sanding, Sanding, Sanding, Sanding:rolleyes:

Are we there yet:D

[ubeaut]

http://www.ubeaut.biz/mhihi.gif Hehehehe

If you sand till only dust comes onto the abrasive paper (not clogged with oil or anything but sanding dust) you should be able to apply any finish, as you are going back onto raw timber. Good time to try the Cabot's mentioned by Martrix. Sand to at least 600 grit to make sure you have a good silky base to begin with. If the paper clogs then there's probably still some residual oil left. You may also be able to smell it in the sanding dust.

Cheers - Neil :)

[Howdya do that]

This thread is turning into a bit of a RIP (Repair in Progress).

I sanded to 400 grit last night, and the wee hours of this morning. I used 4 x 120 disks and a full sheet for hand sanding and thought I had all the finish off but when I changed to 240 I still got some gumming:? so that took 2 x 240 disks then 400 which showed no gumming at all.
I've never gone past 400 before, probably because I have enough trouble sourcing 400 disks out here in the sticks but I'll get some 600 paper today and do it by hand:rolleyes:

Maybe, fingers crossed, pictures with atleast one coat of the cabots by Monday

[martrix]

look forward to seeing the results.

Wouldn't hurt to do this as a final step.

When you've finished sanding and are ready to apply the oil, do this. Carefully blow the dust out of the grain with compressed air (goggles, dust mask :rolleyes:) and rub over all of the surfaces with a clean damp white cloth, not a soaking wet one, squeeze, squeeze, squeeze.. Just enough to add some moisture to the grain to raise the fibres. It will help show up any imperfections etc left in the timber as well as aiding the finishing process.

Let it thoroughly dry and go over it again lightly with the same grade paper that you used before you wet it to remove the raised grain....then you can throw the Cabots at it.:D