Americans - Friends Or Foes?

[Metal Head]

If you read the other Thread I started earlier - about the Pizza Hut - maybe this guy was trying to do what his government couldn't do:oo:. I know you cannot paint everyone with the same brush but similair news came out a few years ago that they wanted to do tests on the British:wink:.


US wanted nerve gas tests done on Australians
Request caused consternation in PM's office
200 troops would have been sprayed with chemicals
It's been revealed that the US military planned to test deadly nerve gas on Australian soldiers in far north Queensland during the Cold War. Newly declassified Defence and Prime Minister's office files show that the US was strongly pushing then prime minister Harold Holt's government in the 1960s to allow tests of two of the deadliest chemical weapons ever developed - VX and GB, better known as Sarin nerve gas.
The revelation will air this morning on the Nine Network's Sunday program. It says the top secret plan involved allowing 200 mainly Australian combat troops to be aerially bombed and sprayed with the chemical weapons. It's understood the Iron Range rainforest near Lockhart River in far north Queensland was the likely location for the tests.

Peter Bailey, a former senior official with Mr Holt, tells the program the request caused consternation in Canberra, and as far as he knows the tests never went ahead. But he says planning was very advanced in the US, which wanted the operation to be kept secret because the weapons were illegal under international law.

[cellist]

As an American and an Aussie, I think it's important to make sure that we don't confuse "Americans" with the government. They are not one and the same. I marched in every protest I could get to during the Vietnam war to try to stop it, as did what, in the end, was a majority of Americans. But the war went on and on despite the people being against it.

I just think that it's important not to tar every American with the same brush. The decision to do this horrible thing (I watched it too) was made by somebody where a suit talking to someone wearing a uniform. Americans on the street or at their dinner table would have been as horrified as you and I were...and that's why the documents were called "secret" for so long.

Most disturbing to me is the fact that Mr Hill, our last Liberal Defense Minister, was less than forthcoming about it. Not surprising to me, but a person seeing that story in another country might wonder about "Australians" since we were going to be the guinea pigs. Nope....not Australians....just insanity purveyed by a suit talking to a uniform.

[TermiMonster]

I hate to get on the Yank bashing waggon, but I will anyway. Remember the anthrax outbreak in the U.S. several years ago. No-one was ever charged, afaik, but the anthrax was proven to be US military manufactured. Makes you wonder who has the WMDs, them or 'us'.
TM

[Ron Dunn]

Somehow, I'm not surprised. Being an "ally" of the USA is frequently more dangerous than being their enemy.

I guess we're lucky that we don't have massive oil reserves left in Australia. Otherwise we'd be at risk of being "liberated" by Halliburton.

[BobR]

As cellist said, don't confuse the American public with the Administration.

[echnidna]

its not that many years ago that Oz destroyed vast stockpiles of mustard gas in the north that were setup in case of japanese invasion in ww2 , yet mustard gas was outlawed just after ww1.

Every country has misfits with too much authority

[Ron Dunn]

BobR, do you think they can be dissociated? After all, around 50% of that public elects the government AND much of their public sector, and delights in going flag-waving crazy whenever they hear the distant sound of gunfire.

I actually think that their government reflects the self-obsessed, gun-crazy blood-lust that runs through their veins.

They're not all like this - probably not even most - but it only takes a significant number to create a national characteristic.

[Woodwould]

Maybe a gross generalisation, but unfortunately the Septics view our world as theirs. Everybody has to fall in line with their desires, otherwise they'll override anyone (including international organisations like The United Nations) to get their way. And their temperament is worsening too. They know they now hold the 'Most Arrogant Nation on Earth' crown (wrenched with some difficulty from the French), so they don't even attempt to be pleasant or considerate to anyone.

I have a second business selling internationally and I now receive daily emails from Septics along the lines of "I need you to do…" or even just "Send me…". No "Dear Sir" or even "Hi", they just launch straight into their demands. I'm fortunate enough to be in the position where I can afford to ignore those types or be as vague as possible while remaining impeccably polite and outwardly friendly.

Sometimes the emails escalate to "I need to speak with your supervisor", whereupon I advise them my supervisor is working in another office and won't be home until at least 7 pm AEST.

They can be as arrogant and unsociable as they like in their own country, but I am very afraid of the manner in which they recklessly abuse other governments and peoples with scant regard for the welfare of their so-called allies. :((

[TermiMonster]

Mind you, despite my earlier rant, without them on our side, we should remember that we would be speaking Japanese, so thanks for that, Uncle Sam.:p
TM

[Ron Dunn]

Wasn't that the last war they won?

[TermiMonster]

No, I think their invasion of Grenada was chalked up as a win....
TM

[markharrison]

I'm in two minds about replying to this thread. The reason for that is that the USA is a very polarising topic, and pretty well always has been. This could quickly descend into a flame war.

Throwing caution to the wind, here is my considered opinion.

The United States, overall, is a force for good. Plenty of mistakes have been made by numerous administrations but on balance the US comes good in the end.

I would much rather an interventionist USA than the isolationist USA that existed prior to WW2. Roosevelt was prevented from making the USA the diplomatic powerhouse it has become by political sentiment at the time of not wanting to get involved in Europe's problems. Unfortunately this had the opposite effect to that intended. If the USA, Britain, France and others had stuck their collective oars in earlier and with more vigour then the whole mess may never have happened.

That is the big lesson that the USA learned and they are determined to not make that particular mistake again.

So much for geo-politics. Whenever and where ever there is a disaster in the world, the United States is there. A recent case in point is Burma. Standing off shore was a whole fleet of help ready to go. There was a degree of luck in the rapid availability of this help but it was there nonetheless. Not that it ended up making any difference but that's not the fault of the USA.

I have had the privilege to travel to the USA many times (more than 12) including four months in 2000 when I worked there. To be honest, I found the average person is at least as friendly and helpful as the average Australian.

For example, my wife and kids were trapped in a garage sans car by a sudden downpour. A fire truck pulled in to fill up and they noticed that they were sheltering from the rain. My wife was asked if they could drop her and the kids home. Not only a lift home but a lift home in a fire truck. My kids (who were four at the time) must have thought they had gone to heaven!

People would talk to you in buses and trains. Not just the creepy ones either:).

The other great thing about the American people is that they are, as a group, extremely up beat and want to get on with things. The flip side of which is that they also tend to not always see the shortcomings of their intentions because the nay sayers are not always listened to.

As for the gun thing, well it's largely true. I remember seeing a bumper sticker in Phoenix that said "An armed socety is a polite society".

You know, maybe that's why they are so polite!:D

[Ron Dunn]

Individually great, agree.

Collectively ... Nationally ... deeply flawed.

[Gingermick]

Maybe a gross generalisation

Sorry but people who make gross generalisations are all idiots :wink::wink::D:)

[dazzler]

As an American and an Aussie, I think it's important to make sure that we don't confuse "Americans" with the government. They are not one and the same.

Spot on. Americans are just like aussies, with just a generally worrying infatuation with god and a little less ability to laugh at themselves.

coupla Vic Bitters in em and there aussies :2tsup:

[Steve Fryar]

Coupla VB's in them and they will be dead.Yuk!! Pale Ale on the other hand, we could take over.

[Fuzzie]

On the balance of things.. friend.

On a point by point basis, it's hard to tell where incompetence diverges from maligned intent. As a culture are we better off because of the existence of America? I suspect if there were no America we would be just as unrecognizable as if there were no Romans or perhaps even Muslim astronomers.

BUT what would the alternate parallel universe be without them?

[Fuzzie]

As an American and an Aussie, I think it's important to make sure that we don't confuse "Americans" with the government.

Is that because a smaller number of citizens vote in the US than in almost any other western democratic nation?

[Big Shed]

I think one of the most dangerous pastimes is to lump a group of people together and label them, eg all blondes are dumb, all Germans are arrogant etc.

I am sure most of us have been overseas and seen the behaviour of some of our fine upstanding citizens, Kuta Beach in Bali comes to mind and Phuket in Thailand. Places where you feel proud to be an Australian. Just because some of our citizens choose to misbehave doesn't give other people the right to tar all of us with the same brush.

I feel the same logic should be applied to this reported case. It sounds to me like a typical bit of gung ho military thinking, not necessarily that of the US government.
And even it was officially sanctioned by the US government, how does that differ from the behaviour of our other "friends", the Poms.
They thought they had a God given right to expose our service people to nuclear radiation without any protection, poisoned our lands and then denied responsibilty for the cleaning up their mess.
So should we then denounce all Poms because of this callous disregard shown by their government and their military?

I think not.

I have visited the US on quite a few occasions both for work (extended periods) and leisure. In all cases I have found the American people to be on the whole polite, interested in other people and places (Australia in particular). Have I never met any Americans I didn't like or found rude, or were perhaps a touch intense when it came to religion? Of course I have, but I have met the same sort of people in Australia and indeed in other countries I have visited.

[dazzler]

Coupla VB's in them and they will be dead.Yuk!! Pale Ale on the other hand, we could take over.

Of course, we always need a drink for the gay ones :2tsup:

[dazzler]

I have visited the US on quite a few occasions both for work (extended periods) and leisure. In all cases I have found the American people to be on the whole polite, interested in other people and places (Australia in particular). .

Did you find they didnt get it went you took the P155 out of em :p

[Honorary Bloke]

Well, a fine way to wake up in the morning! :rolleyes::D:D

I will be reporting this thread to the Government. You have been warned. :cool:

[Check my sig.]

[Big Shed]

Well, a fine way to wake up in the morning! :rolleyes::D:D

I will be reporting this thread to the Government. You have been warned. :cool:

[Check my sig.]

At least you're not a Strange Bloke in an Alien Land (at least I think you're not:rolleyes:)

[m2c1Iw]

Yoh Bloke and good morning,
Dougy Adams was right:rolleyes:

Actually I can't believe the title of this thread, think I'll start another one much more interesting.
"Victorians - um mates or low down water hogging scum" :rolleyes::D

Mike

[Ron Dunn]

*LOL*

The Murray flows all right along our bit ... it is just when it gets to you dirty b*ggers in SA that it all goes wrong :)

Speaking seriously, it makes me think when I see the towns along the Murray in Vic/NSW with their minimal water restrictions, about how much/little impact that has on its lower reaches.

[joe greiner]

As a resident of Oosa, I share your disgust with the behaviour of some of my countrymen.

The topic of the OP relates to "contingency planning." In this game, all sorts of horrible options are explored to their logical conclusion. Luckily, most of them find an early demise.

As I see it, our large population enables each special interest to achieve critical mass, and thus get more attention than it might otherwise deserve. But there are so many issues to address, it's difficult to debate them all at once. Heck, I'm having trouble just writing this message.

The demands that Woodwould cites occur among ourselves, too. "I need you to ..." has replaced "please."

In conferring with friends and neighbours, I sense a groundswell of sentiment against the current state of affairs in many dimensions. This post is a lot shorter than it could be; after all, I've been trying to collect my wits for the past 10 years or so. I hope (against experience) that 2009 will be a better year.

Watch out, Bob. They might report you to the gummint.

Joe

[echnidna]

Its Ok Joe, Bob's got all his guns loaded and cocked :wink:

[Honorary Bloke]

I actually think that their government reflects the self-obsessed, gun-crazy blood-lust that runs through their veins.

Quite right Echnidna. :rolleyes::D:D:D

[Black Ned]

So! What did happen to Harold Holt?

[Honorary Bloke]

So! What did happen to Harold holt?

He did a bolt! :D:D

[echnidna]

took a dive

[Gra]

So! What did happen to Harold Holt?

I thought that was more a question for Wongo not Bob:U

[jerryc]

Just a few viewpoints on America for the argument.

We Americans are the lasvishest and showiest and most luxury loving people on earth; and at our mast head we fly one true and honest symbol, the gaudiest flag the world has ever seen
Mark Twain

Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn't give a hoot and hell for a man who lost and laughed. that's why Americans have never lost or ever lose a war.
Gen George S Patton.

Americans who travel abroad for the fist time are often shocked to discover that despite all the progress that has been made in the last 30 years, many foreign people still speak in a foreign language.

An asylum for the sane would be empty in America.
George Bernard Shaw.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent Government from wasting the labours of the people.
Thomas Jefferson

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else.
Winston Churchill

Jerry

War does not decide who is right. War only decides who is left

[Toolin Around]

I can remember a heated discussion with a mate about the American government treating other nations with contempt and possibly risking their health and lives. I no longer remember the complete details but the gist was along these lines...

He was that the American gov was deliberately interfering with Australian policies... I said all governments do such things, Australia is only in the position to interfere with other nations that were less superior to there's... If we were larger our influence in others affairs would also be larger. He said that was total garbage; Australia would never interfere in another nations affairs...

A short while later a news story broke here that reported Australia deliberately interfered in another nations affairs and many people had lost there lives as a result...

Australia is no better than the US on it's international (or domestic for that matter)policies, just more limited on where they can deliberately interfere and cause problems.

Yes the US's desire to test weapons on Aussie soldiers is disgusting but it sounds like there were those in the Australian administration that were also interested in taking the US up on their request.

[reef12]

I'm in two minds about replying to this thread. The reason for that is that the USA is a very polarising topic, and pretty well always has been. This could quickly descend into a flame war.

Throwing caution to the wind, here is my considered opinion.

The United States, overall, is a force for good. Plenty of mistakes have been made by numerous administrations but on balance the US comes good in the end.

I would much rather an interventionist USA than the isolationist USA that existed prior to WW2. Roosevelt was prevented from making the USA the diplomatic powerhouse it has become by political sentiment at the time of not wanting to get involved in Europe's problems. Unfortunately this had the opposite effect to that intended. If the USA, Britain, France and others had stuck their collective oars in earlier and with more vigour then the whole mess may never have happened.

That is the big lesson that the USA learned and they are determined to not make that particular mistake again.

So much for geo-politics. Whenever and where ever there is a disaster in the world, the United States is there. A recent case in point is Burma. Standing off shore was a whole fleet of help ready to go. There was a degree of luck in the rapid availability of this help but it was there nonetheless. Not that it ended up making any difference but that's not the fault of the USA.

I have had the privilege to travel to the USA many times (more than 12) including four months in 2000 when I worked there. To be honest, I found the average person is at least as friendly and helpful as the average Australian.

For example, my wife and kids were trapped in a garage sans car by a sudden downpour. A fire truck pulled in to fill up and they noticed that they were sheltering from the rain. My wife was asked if they could drop her and the kids home. Not only a lift home but a lift home in a fire truck. My kids (who were four at the time) must have thought they had gone to heaven!

People would talk to you in buses and trains. Not just the creepy ones either:).

The other great thing about the American people is that they are, as a group, extremely up beat and want to get on with things. The flip side of which is that they also tend to not always see the shortcomings of their intentions because the nay sayers are not always listened to.

As for the gun thing, well it's largely true. I remember seeing a bumper sticker in Phoenix that said "An armed socety is a polite society".

You know, maybe that's why they are so polite!:D


Said the Best Mate.:2tsup:

[Dingo Dog]

Oz folk have been used before as experimental piggies, by the Poms testing their Nuc weapons on the coast of WA and in SA, research the cloud that got away full of bad karma from SA, drifted over to the East of NSW and up into QLD, its the reason why QLD folk are so slow.:U

[GekoMan]

1) I agree that Australian government had and do currently have things to be ashamed of as far as how it treats it's "friends". Look at oil in the Timor Sea for example. I don't see protest marches in Australia over that issue. What does that say about Australians?

2) I can distinguish between USA government and USA people. Yes most USA people are very friendly and want the same things that people everywhere want.

3) Having said all that, I think the distinction between the USA government foreign policy and the USA people is less easy to make in recent years. I think there is more clearly cause and effect between the attitudes of the USA people and the foreign policies of their government.

Also, I also think the simmering resentment against the USA in most of the rational world is to a limited degree deserved. [I don't include most extremists in that statement].

For example: people that say we should distinguish between the people of the USA and their government fail to explain why Bush got voted in to a 2nd term with the majority that he did. To me this says a lot about the American people and what they thought at the time.

Sure the isolationist polices of the USA prior to 1944 were a mistake. On the other hand the USA is gradually becoming isolated in another sense due to their foreign polices since the Korean War.

The USA is also gradually becoming less relevant to the rest of the world. There was a time not so long ago when if the USA dollar fell to it's current level it would have triggered a world wide depression. It is having an effect, but not as significant as in the past. I think this is symptom and will have long term consequences. A subtle shift in power is occurring.

[Gingermick]

1) the simmering resentment against the USA in most of the rational world is to a limited degree deserved. [I don't include most extremists in that statement].

Well their resntment is neither simmering nor rational.

[Sebastiaan56]

I think Shed nailed it when he cautioned about generalising. Personally the Americans I have met to be damn fine people, almost without exception. But they like us have a government and institutions and theirs, like ours, do some dumb even despicable things. But for the last 70 odd years they have had the dominant world culture.

What fascinates me is the deep dichotomy in American society. On one hand the country was founded by pioneers who had to bash out survival in often quite difficult territory against smart and hostile native inhabitants. On the other a lot of these pioneers were deeply religious and were fleeing religious persecution. Add to that the whole slavery episode and it deep african cultural precedents and you have a melting pot of very different mentalities. Its why a god fearing african american can wield a gun, preach free trade and go and shoot and torture with little apparent compunction. Amazing!

That the brass wanted to test on our men is nothing new for the times. Aussie soldiers were at Maralinga and their protection when the Pommies blew a bomb "turn your back son, it'll be a big flash". They had a shower before they went home. First hand from my wife's grandfather who was there.

What also fascinates me is that China seems to be on the rise and their culture is at least 3000yo. The Roman empire lasted over 1000 years. Islamic culture is a millenia. The American empire 70-100 years. Not that flash....

[Studley 2436]

The Yanks I have met have by and large been all right. Have been some that were a bit loud you have to stare those ones down, like turn the volume down a bit mate.

The Yanks do have a fault that they don't really get that there is a world outside the US. When you are so big it is easy to just ignore the rest of the place I guess.

Studley

[Zed]

if they switched to metric and mum instead of mom it may help. :D

thier own biggest economy doesnt help, neither does thier imbicilic head honcho who said " the american way of life is not up for negotiation" imbicilic f'wit..... that will make them friends in poorer countries wont it ? (rolleyes...)

[jerryc]

Zed,

You've just opened a new front on America. That is how they complicate life by being so stubbornly different for no apparent reason.
They had metric money very early on, yet the American Stock Exchange still gives values in fractions of a dollar and not by decimal point.
Who but Americans know what they mean by a ten penny nail? (Don't all rush and tell me -I know why).
When they had a gallon measure, it has to be different to the Imperial gallon.
Tried to work out shellac measures? Two pound cut? Sounds a bit painful.

And what they can do to language would leave even old Shakespeare gob smacked.

But although it is a bit of a simplification because I have deliberately left out race as an issue, important as it is, really there are four Americas. East Coast, West Coast. Bible Belt and those Good Ol' Boys down South who still fight the American Civil War. Which is why we have trouble talking about "Americans."

Jerryc

War does not decide who is right. War only decides who is left.

[Honorary Bloke]

But although it is a bit of a simplification because I have deliberately left out race as an issue, important as it is, really there are four Americas. East Coast, West Coast. Bible Belt and those Good Ol' Boys down South who still fight the American Civil War. Which is why we have trouble talking about "Americans."

I assume by American Civil War you are referring to what we Southerners describe as the War of Yankee Aggression?

Or, as my grandmother used to call it in true Southern Lady understatement: The Late Unpleasantness. :rolleyes: :D:D:D

[Ron Dunn]

... The Late Unpleasantness ...

Sounds like your grandmother should have been an Honorary Sheila ... typical Australian flair for understatement :)

[jerryc]

Sorry Bob,

I promise I will never even whistle "Marching Through Georgia."

Jerry

War does not decide who is right. War only decides who is left.

[Sebastiaan56]

I'll do my rendition of Dixie with a mouthful of SAO's,