Overcharging Tradie...

[Batpig]

Dear Gents,

If you’re interested in the whole issue of trying to avoid getting ripped off by dishonest tradesmen, have a read of this one and give me your opinion. It is not meant in any way to be aimed at all tradesmen - just the ones that do the sort of thing described below. I don't expect that there are any such tradies on this Forum, because it would just be too out of character to shaft somebody by day, and then help somebody else out by night over the net on a Forum...

Anyway, the scenario is that my brother’s neighbour is in the process of renovating their house, and my brother has kindly agreed to allow access to the required machinery through his front and back yards to enable the neighbour to do so. In the course of watching the excavations being done, my brother arranged for the earthworks contractor to also do some digging in his yard too. The terms were $70/hr for just one man and the machinery, plus an extra $50/hr if a second man could turn up who would be able to load the truck with a Bobcat, and then take the load away, so that the first man could get on with the Drott-work. My sister-in-law kept an eye on proceedings over the course of the two days that it took to complete the work in their own yard, and categorically observed that whilst a second man did turn up for most of both days, he was simply standing around for at least 75% of the time, either talking on his mobile phone, or just relieving the fellow on the Drott whenever the guy needed a break. This was because the second guy didn’t seem to know enough about the gear to be able to load the truck with the Bobcat by himself, and he was quite slow on the Drott too, whenever he took the controls. It apparently looked a bit like the first guy was having to teach the second guy how to operate the gear whenever he handed over. Knock-off was at around 3.30 on both days...

Anyhow, at the end of the two days, the main fellow told my sister-in-law that the bill (even with an apparent 10% discount built-in, mind you) would come to $1740, with the subtle threat that it would have to be greater if an invoice was required.

Now, the number of hours that my brother is therefore being charged for both men is $1740 divided by $120/hr, which comes to14.5hrs - ie. Two whole days. The simple truth, though, is that only one of the men worked effectively for the two days, while the second guy did bugger all. My brother is therefore being overcharged by something in the region of at least $500 (ie. At least 10 useless hours for the second guy to stand around at $50/hr...)

The whole thing was done without a written quote or estimate of any sort, and my brother and I are now in the process of scratching our heads trying to work out how to actually dispute this thing. I rang the QBSA, and the woman who took the call was not only unhelpful, but also somewhat hostile. Anyway, she reckoned there was effectively nothing my brother could do except pay up, unless he wanted to risk throwing good money after bad...

Have any of you ever had something like this happen, and if so, what did you do about it?

Many Thanks,
Batpig.

[Rossluck]

You're going to hate me saying this, Batpig, but this is because you didn't get a quote for the job. I mean, I'm on your side, but watching people out the window isn't the way to judge the work or the price. You basically need to have someone in the business see the job and give you a quote. A good drott operator can move mountains in two days.

The fact that they were working next door means little. In the end you need to see how much they achieved over two days and how much stuff was taken away. A drott, a truck and a bobcat, and two men (on or off) over two days would start heading towards $2000 in my experience.

My advice: forget it and get a quote next time. Sorry. :-

[TermiMonster]

What he said:aro-u:
TM

[Batpig]

You're going to hate me saying this, Batpig, but this is because you didn't get a quote for the job.
Funny thing - I thought it had more to do with dishonesty by the Tradie. And it was my brother that it happened to, not me. I'm looking into it for him because he's a top guy who's helped a lot of people out in his life, and never screwed a single soul. He just too trusting by nature, because he's trustworthy himself.


I mean, I'm on your side, but watching people out the window isn't the way to judge the work or the price.
You're right. You instead just count the number of hours they work and multiply it by the quoted hourly rate...


You basically need to have someone in the business see the job and give you a quote.
This guy was driving a Drott and a Bobcat through my brother's yard, and digging up the neighbour's yard with them. He seemed to have the appearance of someone in the business...
He refused to give a firm quote because he said that he couldn't see how much rock might be below the surface. Must have sounded fair enough at the time...


A good drott operator can move mountains in two days.
And a bad one can still take two days to move less than a mountain...


The fact that they were working next door means little. In the end you need to see how much they achieved over two days and how much stuff was taken away.
Are you sure? I would have thought that in the end my brother needed to just multiply the number of hours worked by the quoted hourly rate...


A drott, a truck and a bobcat, and two men (on or off) over two days would start heading towards $2000 in my experience.
Two men - yes. One able man, with a rookie in tow on a mobile phone - No Way.


My advice: forget it and get a quote next time. Sorry. :-
I think that must be something like what the State Government counsellors say to rape victims in one room, while the free Legal Aid lawyers are working out how to get the Barstool off the hook in the other room...

Thanks Ross, and Best Wishes,
Batpig.

[Rossluck]

I didn't mean to get into an argument with you about it. I've been bitten by the same sort of thing, and the only solution is to get a quote for the job and then they can take as long as they want and it won't annoy you (or your brother).

But drotts are a serious machine that cost a fortune to buy and maintain, and suck diesel like Homer sucks beer (@ $165 a litre:oo:). Then there's the truck and the tyres and so on... The same but to a lesser degree for the bobcat.

I'm in the building industry, and if I don't turn over $1000 a day I could be in trouble. And I don't run a drott or a Bobcat. If I owned a drott and employed someone for two days to work with me, I'd be a bit shakey if I didn't recieve $1800. A plumber and a Bobcat operator recently dug a new drain for our septic system. They brought in two truckloads of gravel, used about $100 work of plumbing fittings, and the day cost me $2,400.

Don't let this eat you up. You should call the Drott operator and let him know how you feel. And as I said above, if you really want to push the point, ask another drott operator to come over and have a look at what was done, and ask him what he would charge. As a guide, Drott's get $500 to cut a house pad and they generally do three, and sometimes four a day. The simple rule of thumb is: the heavier the machine is the more it costs.

[autogenous]

Another tradie bashing thread about a bobcat driver who isnt exactly a tradesman.:(

When will people learn to distinguish between gross business revenue and wages.

Even though he is not a tradesman his loan repayments on the machinery alone are worth a bomb.

The issue with getting a quote on site works is that the driver has to guess. That means think of a number and double it.

Was the bloke on the phone speaking to his customers who were ringing about jobs?

Many Bobcat drivers are now $90+ an hour in Perth.

The word "rock" is not what you want to here when doing earth works.

[dazzler]

Pay for the main bloke and what you think the second bloke deserves. Detail why in a letter and leave it at that. If they choose to pursue you in the courts then decide if you are bothered or not. At worst pay the full amount before walking into court. :2tsup:

[dazzler]

Oh

and was someone driving the bobcat and tipping the stuff at the same time that the drott was working. Perhaps she saw the bloke only when he was out of the machine or truck. :?

[Christopha]

Pay the poor bugger you lousy sod!!!

[Batpig]

Sorry Autogenous. I couldn't get you up on Multi-quote but in response to your post, I honestly didn't mean it to be a Tradie-Basher. It was just pretty difficult to ask anyone (including Tradies) for advice without explaining something about the situation in the original post. As previously said, most Tradies here are probably decent guys because it's just too out of character for the bad guys to shaft by day, help out by night.

I'll also ask if any future posters can avoid any Tradie-bashing (and any Tradie posters can avoid Customer-bashing), because it certainly just degrades the whole thing into a mud-sling along the moronic lines of Christopha's post, whereas I'm just trying to find a solution for my brother.


Pay for the main bloke and what you think the second bloke deserves. Detail why in a letter and leave it at that. If they choose to pursue you in the courts then decide if you are bothered or not. At worst pay the full amount before walking into court. :2tsup:
Thanks Dazzler. Only constructive reply to the original question asked so far.


Oh

and was someone driving the bobcat and tipping the stuff at the same time that the drott was working. Perhaps she saw the bloke only when he was out of the machine or truck. :?
No - as stated in my first and second posts, the second guy was standing around for at least 75% of the time and certainly wasn't independently operating the Bobcat or driving the Truck, which was the stated scenario under which the extra $50/hr was to be paid. The small amount of time that he operated the machinery was mainly spent under the close supervision of the first guy. Probably an ex-concretor moving over into earthworks...

Best Wishes Guys,
Batpig.

[TermiMonster]

From where I sit (a long way away), your brother did his neighbour a favour allowing access, not the contractor. As far as the contractor is concerned it is just another job. Many trades have off-siders who have to be there for part of the job, but you can't just employ someone to come for an hour in the morning, go away for two hours, then come back between 11.30 and 12.00, etc.
The contractor had to pay him a full day, and so does your brother. The price, from all reports is fair (if not cheap).
Pay up.
TM

[Batpig]

I dunno Termi, maybe I'm not making myself clear enough. The extra $50/hr was for a second man going full time on either a Bobcat or Truck, not just standing around...

If the main fellow got the job on the basis of what seemed to be a fairish rate, is it then fair at the end of the job to depart from that rate when levelling the bill? Would you like to pick up a Watermelon at Woolies because it was marked 99c/kg, and then get home and find that they had charged you $1.49/kg instead?...

Anyway, as it turns out from talking with my sister-in-law last night, the guy was also doing work next door during the course of the two full days for which my brother is being charged... So my brother will actually have to pay for 2 guys for 2 days, when what he actually got was 1 guy for somewhat less than 2 days.

And to top it off, it turns out that the neighbours are in dispute with him too because they reckon he's been "going" them as well!

But fair enough with your comments. Just try to remember it's about having trouble with one Tradie, not all of them. It can't be that surprising can it? You get bad eggs in all walks, don't you?

Thanks Termi,
Batpig.

[Pheonix]

If he wants access next time charge him the same rates!:;

[dazzler]

Im with you batpig. Sounds like thier crooks.

Get your brother to liaise with the neighbour and work out just whos paying for what and how many times they are getting paid.

Thing to remember is if they are sure they are being ripped, pay for what is fair and let it go to the small claims court. No lawyers needed and the worst case scenario is you end up paying the original cost if you lose.

Most crooks wont go to court anyway.

And before any tradies get upset, remember its the bad apples that reflect on all of us.

[rhancock]

I've been a tradie or worked for one, or lived with one, for all my life, and most of the people you meet are good people, but the dodgy ones take advantage of those customers who don't want to take the time to research a good price, make the effort to get a few quotes, get recommendations from friends, build relationships with tradies, oh, and pay GST. If they did, they'd have the protection of the authorities (QBSA etc).

You took the risk, you pay the price. Next time, I'll recommend a good worker for you.

By the way, I recently paid just over $2000 for two blokes to work all day, most of it with one guy standing watching the other working. I didn't watch them work, I asked them to quote for a job I needed doing, and because they know me, and know I'm a good customer and will recommend them to others (I've recommended them to forumites in the past) they charged me less than the quote.

[chrisp]

Anyhow, at the end of the two days, the main fellow told my sister-in-law that the bill (even with an apparent 10% discount built-in, mind you) would come to $1740, with the subtle threat that it would have to be greater if an invoice was required.

I reckon Dazzler has given the best advice - offer to pay for the work at the agreed rate per hour of work - not standing around.

I doubt that an outfit offering to up the price if an invoice is required is going to want the charges looked at too closely in court!


...the dodgy ones take advantage of those customers who don't ... oh, and pay GST. If they did, they'd have the protection of the authorities (QBSA etc).

I hope I'm not misquoting you with the slabs of text cutout, but I would have thought the issue of paying GST is an issue for the service provider, not the customer. The service provider should be paying GST on cash transactions as well - if they're honest:wink:.

I do wonder about the honesty of tradies (and others) who offer to do work "discount for cash". Me thinks people who are dishonest with the taxman could also be dishonest with me the customer. But maybe I'm too naive:)

[Batpig]

Thanks Phoenix, Dazzler, Richard, and Chris,

A little bit of sanity is starting to creep into the thread...

Earlier respondents have to remember that whilst the "Hourly Rates" that were verbally quoted before the job started were in the region of being fair, it is the number of hours that my Bro is being charged for that is the dishonest bit.

The extra $50/hr was supposed to be for a second guy going continuously on either Bobcat or Truck so that the first guy could keep going on the Drott. That didn't happen. End of Story!

A rookie on a mobile either lining up tomorrow's job, or sorting out Access with his Ex, or being trained by the main guy, does not count as a man going continuously on a Bobcat or Truck. It's pretty simple to me. I would have thought it should also be simple to anyone else who's bothered to properly read my posts :?.

Going back a few years, I had to work in with concreting crews on a daily basis - maybe three dozen different outfits. I used to drink with these guys (and that's saying a bit...). In the course of it all, I would have seen several hundred footings being dug, pads being levelled, embankments being cut back for retaining walls, soil being compacted in layers and compaction tests being done - every aspect of earthworks. Now I may be a little bit rusty nowadays, but my first reaction when my brother told me that he was being charged 2 days/2 men was "What! You're kidding! I wouldn't have thought there was even a day in that for two guys..."

As it turns out, there wasn't - Guy No. 2 wasn't on a machine, and Guy No. 1 wasn't even in my brother's yard for the whole 2 days... So it's not an opinion thing. It's a mathematical thing. SIMPLE!

So no more replies please along the lines of "The price was fair. Pay Up!" thanks very much. The thread isn't called "Do you think he's been overcharged?" It's called "Overcharging Tradie..." None of you has even seen the site, for Heaven's sake... How could you know it's a fair price? You're obviously getting the concept of a "Fair Rate" confused with that of an "Honest Bill" at the end of the job...

Chris - you're right. Since it looks like there's no official line of arbitration with these things, Dazzler's is definitely the best suggestion so far.

Thanks again guys,
Batpig.

[Rossluck]

My similar event (that I've talked about here in the past) concerned a husband of a friend of SWMBO who's a concretor. I gave him a small plant trailer (gave!!!) and when he was asking me what he could do in return, I told him I needed a 5m X 5m slab. I was shocked whe he charged me $2,500 for the slab, and it ate me up for months. Most concretors I talked to about it agreed that they would do the same job for under $2000. Worse still, just after he poured the slab and hit me for that amount, he shot over to the US for a two month holiday (his SWMBO is from the US), so I couldn't launch into a discussion with him about it. I do understand how Batpig feels.

But it is hard for us here to make a judgement without seeing the work. My assessment was based on this simple fact: I have a few friends who are drott operators, and I wouldn't expect them to spend two days at my place and pay less than $2000.

And most importantly, I would ask them for an overall cost based on the work needing to be done before they started. It need not be a prolonged and official negotiation, but something along the lines of:

"How much is this going to cost me, Harry? You're not going to go stupid on me are you?"

And his reply might be something along the lines of: "Well, it's gonna be a coupla thou by the time I ...".

Then you both know where you stand and off he goes. Under these circumstances, if he and an offsider want to stand around, that's their perogative.

[corbs]

As has already been indicated, offer (in writing) to pay what you originally agreed on and why. There is a fair chance he doesn't want Mr Tax man getting involved. Was the first figure written down anywhere?, if so keep a copy just incase. It does look like your brother may be being ripped off but I think there is more information required and you will only get it from the operator.

It also looks like you are fishing for the answer you want to hear and then not just disregarding the other responses, but slandering them. If you are going to ask a question in here, be ready for all responses. The good thing about these forums is you will get a few devils advocates which will give more indepth information to the subject of the original question.

Corbs

[Calm]

...........The terms were $70/hr for just one man and the machinery, plus an extra $50/hr if a second man could turn up who would be able to load the truck with a Bobcat, ...............

What you need to do is go to the contractor and work out the hours worked multiplied by the rates quoted and pay that amount.

There were 2 people on site so you have to pay for both. Are you or your SIL qualified to judge the competence of the second person. He was there and must be paid for.

If you think he is ripping you off insist on a tax invoice so he has to declare it for taxation purposes and GST. This could cost you more so you need to decide what is important to you money or principle.

As the others have said get a quote or written estimate before the work begins.

[wheelinround]

Batpig I am being picky here

Tradie :rolleyes:

Since when do you do 4 years as an apprentice to become a Bobcat, backhoe or drot operator. Even you can go buy and start up just ned the $$$$ a Truck and more $$$$ a place to dump your load and more $$$$ for tip fee's. More $$$$$ for maintenance of all vehicles.

He's not a tradie he's a contractor Owner Operator businessman CEO.
unless of course he's also the builder.

[TomH]

Hi Batpig,

Not a great situation to be in.

The thing which puzzles me, is that why did the person involved watch for a day or so with someone talking on the phone and not doing anything? If anyone was working for me when I agreed to pay them on an hourly basis was spending more time on the phone rather than working I would go out and talk to them. By not talking to them about unsatisfactory behaviour, you are effectively agreeing to it, and should pay the consequences.

If you are concerned about the bill, then pick up the phone and talk to them. The conversation is a simple one.
- Thanks for the work.
- We agreed to this to be done with this many people.
- I feel the charges are excessive as one person appeared to be talking on the phone rather than doing what we agreed to (and highlight what was discussed).
- Because of this I would like the charge reduced by x amount.

I would imagine most tradies like an argument about costs as much as you do, and so will be keen to resolve such as problem. Since you did not have a quote, then you are in a weak position to dispute costs.

Good luck.

Tom

[Rossluck]

Batpig I am being picky here

Tradie :rolleyes:

Since when do you do 4 years as an apprentice to become a Bobcat, backhoe or drot operator. Even you can go buy and start up just ned the $$$$ a Truck and more $$$$ a place to dump your load and more $$$$ for tip fee's. More $$$$$ for maintenance of all vehicles.

He's not a tradie he's a contractor Owner Operator businessman CEO.
unless of course he's also the builder.

There's a generic use of the word "tradie" in the building industry to describe just about anyone who works on a building site. It doesn't mean anything. People like me know that we aren't actually tradespeople. But who's got the time in this frantic business to go around being so pedantic as to differentiate. Don't worry about it ......:D:D:D:D

[dazzler]

Since you did not have a quote, then you are in a weak position to dispute costs.



That goes both ways. You said he said. As batpig correctly points out its maths. This many $ for this machine/person. If the machine/person is not working then "no soup for you" :D

As an aside, I never quote for bobcat/tipper work. I tell them my hourly rate and invite them to watch me work. I barely stop for a drink and there is no way on gods green earth anyone would complain that I wasnt earning my keep. I even take the half hour for lunch that I have to stop while other workpeople are stopped for lunch off the bill. I have heaps of repeat customers, all down to service.

These guys fail in the service dept me thinks.

[dazzler]

.

He's not a tradie he's a contractor Owner Operator businessman CEO.
.

Wow, CEO, Im gunna get me one of them blonde personal assistants with the black skirt and the white blouse and the ..........

oh yeah :D

[Batpig]

What you need to do is go to the contractor and work out the hours worked multiplied by the rates quoted and pay that amount.
Spot-on Calm, but that will result in only $70/hr (ie. 1 man on a machine) and for less than 2 days (ie. wont include the time during the 2 days that the main guy spent next door.)


There were 2 people on site so you have to pay for both.
Not at the quoted rate for 2 guys on machines


Are you or your SIL qualified to judge the competence of the second person.
Qualifications to judge the second guy's competence are neither necessary or even relevant when the second guy is not even on the machinery that you're being asked to pay for him to operate.


He was there and must be paid for.
In light of the above comments, no.


As the others have said get a quote or written estimate before the work begins.
My brother asked him for a written quote beforehand Calm, but the guy declined (citing the possibility of hitting rock) and just quoted the said hourly rates. My brother agreed, nonetheless, because the earthworker was the chap who's gear would be sitting in my brother's front and rear yards in the process of digging up the neighbour's place. As stated previously, that neighbour is also now in dispute with the guy for being overcharged.


He was there and must be paid for.
The first man, yes. The second man, no.

Thanks for replying, Calm.


The thing which puzzles me, is that why did the person involved watch for a day or so with someone talking on the phone and not doing anything?
Tom, if what you're asking is why didn't my sister-in-law go out and pull the first guy up, it's because the rates were quoted a week beforehand with the second guy on the Bobcat and Truck being mentioned as only a possibility,not a certainty. When the main guy rolled up to do the job and there was no-one on the Bobcat, it just never occurred to either my Brother or SIL that they were going to be paying for anything other than 1 man. She sort of thought that the other fellow must have belonged to the builder next door because there was quite a few guys buzzing around. It just didn't enter her (or Bro's) mind at all as to what would eventuate with the bill...


By not talking to them about unsatisfactory behaviour, you are effectively agreeing to it, and should pay the consequences.
It might be better to say "might have to pay" instead of "should pay", because nobody sees these things coming beforehand, nor agrees to them. The second guy wasn't exactly getting around with a T-shirt that said "I still cost $50/hr even though I'm not on the Bobcat and Truck..."


If you are concerned about the bill, then pick up the phone and talk to them. The conversation is a simple one.
- Thanks for the work.
- We agreed to this to be done with this many people.
- I feel the charges are excessive as one person appeared to be talking on the phone rather than doing what we agreed to (and highlight what was discussed).
- Because of this I would like the charge reduced by x amount.
.
I think that's about all he can do, Tom. There doesn't seem to be an "official" type of solution. Good reply, and I thank you.


its maths. This many $ for this machine/person.
Dazzler, the quintessentially Classic Blokey Straight-Talking Chase-Cutting Spade-Identification-Technician, has got the whole thing nailed quite nicely here. :2tsup:

Thanks everyone,
Batpig.

[Bluegum]

Quote[My brother asked him for a written quote beforehand Calm, but the guy declined (citing the possibility of hitting rock) and just quoted the said hourly rates. My brother agreed, nonetheless, because the earthworker was the chap who's gear would be sitting in my brother's front and rear yards in the process of digging up the neighbour's place. As stated previously, that neighbour is also now in dispute with the guy for being overcharged.]

As an operator (not tradie) the company that I have worked for will always quote an hourly rate. You will never know if your going to strike rock no matter where you start to dig. The only thing rock does when you strike it is slow you up. I have struck rock on plenty of jobs that I have been on and the hourly rate does not increase only the amount of hours that you are there for. There may be the odd exception if you need to use the rock breaker ( or get one bought in), but we will notify the customer if this is the case giving them that bit of notice. We will charge for an extra operator but only if the machine he is supposed to be using is moving. Its a bit hard to charge for something that is not being done.

[Calm]

Batpig i can understand your feelings on this but as the second man was on site - working or not - then you must pay for him. You are splitting hairs by saying he was there but not working - the point is HE WAS THERE.

Look at it from the "tradie's" point of view. He has to pay the second man for the day as he was under his employe - so who do you suggest he charge his time out to.

I think the best thing to do is calculate the hours there by 1st man times $70 and the hours there by 2nd man x $50 pay that and tell him to whistle for the rest.

That way you are paying for what you were originally quoted 1st man $70 2nd man - if on site - $50, they cant argue with that.

Sorry if you dont like the responses you are getting, but you started the thread and asked for opinions and that is what i am giving an honest opinion. If you only want people to agree with you dont ask for our thoughts.:2tsup:

[Batpig]

That way you are paying for what you were originally quoted 1st man $70 2nd man - if on site - $50, they cant argue with that.
Calm, you just plain can't be reading all the posts on this thread, because it's already been said at least half a dozen times that the quoted rate was: "$50/HR FOR A 2ND GUY GOING CONTINUOUSLY ON A BOBCAT OR TRUCK" not "$50/hr for a 2nd man if on site." Tell me, what post number in this thread did you get that from?


Sorry if you dont like the responses you are getting, Might actually be more a case of some respondents don't like the facts they are hearing, because they seem to keep reverting back to non-facts (like your very own version of the rate for the 2nd guy)


We will charge for an extra operator but only if the machine he is supposed to be using is moving. Its a bit hard to charge for something that is not being done.
Amen, Bluegum. Amen. Thanks for the sanity check, and thanks for saying something so obvious that it shouldn't even have to be said, because it goes without saying, namely that "You should get what you pay for, and only pay for what you get..."

Get back to me when you can with that post number, wont you Calm...

Many Thanks,
Batpig.

[Calm]

Batpig i can understand your feelings on this but as the second man was on site - working or not - then you must pay for him. You are splitting hairs by saying he was there but not working - the point is HE WAS THERE.

Look at it from the "tradie's" point of view. He has to pay the second man for the day as he was under his employe - so who do you suggest he charge his time out to.

I think the best thing to do is calculate the hours there by 1st man times $70 and the hours there by 2nd man x $50 pay that and tell him to whistle for the rest.

That way you are paying for what you were originally quoted 1st man $70 2nd man - if on site - $50, they cant argue with that.

Sorry if you dont like the responses you are getting, but you started the thread and asked for opinions and that is what i am giving an honest opinion. If you only want people to agree with you dont ask for our thoughts.:2tsup:

Batpig you arepicking bits out of a whole response that suit your argument. Answer the bits i highlighted in red then you may answer some of your own questions.

Like i said in the above post Batpig if you dont like the response you are insisting we are wrong. Did it ever occur to you that you may not be totally in the right with your beliefs?


Get back to me when you can with that post number, wont you Calm...

You can make all the snide remarks you like but if this thread doesnt show fairness and decency to all respondents then i refuse to participate further.

[bricks]

Dear Gents,

If you’re interested in the whole issue of trying to avoid getting ripped off by dishonest tradesmen, have a read of this one and give me your opinion. It is not meant in any way to be aimed at all tradesmen - just the ones that do the sort of thing described below. I don't expect that there are any such tradies on this Forum, because it would just be too out of character to shaft somebody by day, and then help somebody else out by night over the net on a Forum...

Anyway, the scenario is that my brother’s neighbour is in the process of renovating their house, and my brother has kindly agreed to allow access to the required machinery through his front and back yards to enable the neighbour to do so. In the course of watching the excavations being done, my brother arranged for the earthworks contractor to also do some digging in his yard too. The terms were $70/hr for just one man and the machinery, plus an extra $50/hr if a second man could turn up who would be able to load the truck with a Bobcat, and then take the load away, so that the first man could get on with the Drott-work. My sister-in-law kept an eye on proceedings over the course of the two days that it took to complete the work in their own yard, and categorically observed that whilst a second man did turn up for most of both days, he was simply standing around for at least 75% of the time, either talking on his mobile phone, or just relieving the fellow on the Drott whenever the guy needed a break. This was because the second guy didn’t seem to know enough about the gear to be able to load the truck with the Bobcat by himself, and he was quite slow on the Drott too, whenever he took the controls. It apparently looked a bit like the first guy was having to teach the second guy how to operate the gear whenever he handed over. Knock-off was at around 3.30 on both days...

Anyhow, at the end of the two days, the main fellow told my sister-in-law that the bill (even with an apparent 10% discount built-in, mind you) would come to $1740, with the subtle threat that it would have to be greater if an invoice was required.

Now, the number of hours that my brother is therefore being charged for both men is $1740 divided by $120/hr, which comes to14.5hrs - ie. Two whole days. The simple truth, though, is that only one of the men worked effectively for the two days, while the second guy did bugger all. My brother is therefore being overcharged by something in the region of at least $500 (ie. At least 10 useless hours for the second guy to stand around at $50/hr...)

The whole thing was done without a written quote or estimate of any sort, and my brother and I are now in the process of scratching our heads trying to work out how to actually dispute this thing. I rang the QBSA, and the woman who took the call was not only unhelpful, but also somewhat hostile. Anyway, she reckoned there was effectively nothing my brother could do except pay up, unless he wanted to risk throwing good money after bad...

Have any of you ever had something like this happen, and if so, what did you do about it?

Many Thanks,
Batpig.


Just wondering who payed for the truck? or was that free?

[Rossluck]

Right from the first moment I read Batpig's initial post I saw this whole issue as a difference in expectations. I think that when it comes to earthmoving equipment you're setting yourself up for a sort of personal torture if you're going to watch through windows to make sure that your contractor is constantly moving.

I can imagine that the drott operator and the other fella just ignored the hourly rate thing and had a guess at the value of the overall job. This, in my experience, is typical of the way these fellows work, and if you get a good operator the value for money is good.

But if you're not used to this way of working, and you really think that both men needed to be working constantly to earn the money, then you've set yourself up for ... well, the situation Batpig describes here.

So, to my way of thinking it comes down to the value of the work done. Did the two men and their machines do $1740 worth of work? So insead of getting caught up in the complex process of mathematically superimposing the hourly rates over the perceptions of their ergonomic output, this is what Batpig and his brother and sister-in-law should be focusing on. Ask another drott operator to come and have a look and tell you how much he would have charged. Then pay that. :2tsup:

[Batpig]

Just wondering who payed for the truck? or was that free?
Et tu, Bricks?...:(

The short answer is No. The explanation is that like any other one-man show, the operator gets paid his rate (in this case $70/hr) no matter whether he is on Drott, Bobcat, or in Truck - as long as he's working one of them at any particular time. He stockpiles a truckload of soil with the Drott, then stops the Drott and hops on to the Bobcat, and then loads the Truck, then stops the Bobcat and jumps into the Truck and takes the load away. When he gets back, he starts the whole process again. Costs less per hour because of only one man, but takes longer...

You pay more for a two man outfit (in this case an extra $50/hr for what should have been a second man on Bobcat and Truck) because he saves the first man from having to jump off the Drott in order to load the Truck with the Bobcat and then take the load away - ie. the next load is being dug up and stockpiled by the Drott, even as the last load is being Trucked away. Costs more per hour because of two men, but is done quicker...

What you should never get (in Earthworks, or in any other business/industry/enterprise) is an extra rate charged for a guy who was supposed to be doing something to shorten the job, but didn't actually do it and the job took the longer amount of time anyway...

We will charge for an extra operator but only if the machine he is supposed to be using is moving. Its a bit hard to charge for something that is not being done.

Rossluck, the chap wouldn't and didn't quote an overall figure at the start of the job - just the rates - for the same reason that Bluegum cited in the full version of his post. He can't then have it both ways at the end of the job ie. charge the greater of either the length of the job by the rate, or an overall amount that he secretly had in his mind as a minimum figure that he didn't tell the customer about. He can't have it both ways...

Best Wishes to both of you guys,
Batpig.

[Calm]

[quote] Originally Posted by Calm http://mt0.woodworkforums.com/images/button2/viewpost.gif (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=743077#post743077)
Batpig i can understand your feelings on this but as the second man was on site - working or not - then you must pay for him. You are splitting hairs by saying he was there but not working - the point is HE WAS THERE.

Look at it from the "tradie's" point of view. He has to pay the second man for the day as he was under his employe - so who do you suggest he charge his time out to?

I think the best thing to do is calculate the hours there by 1st man times $70 and the hours there by 2nd man x $50 pay that and tell him to whistle for the rest.

That way you are paying for what you were originally quoted 1st man $70 2nd man - if on site - $50, they cant argue with that.

Sorry if you dont like the responses you are getting, but you started the thread and asked for opinions and that is what i am giving an honest opinion. If you only want people to agree with you dont ask for our thoughts.:2tsup:[quote]


Come on Batpig you are still not commenting on the parts in RED, dont they suit your argument??:no::no:

[dazzler]

Hi Calm

If he gives a quote to get the job done then its not an issue who does what and for how long. he can do it all on his own or pay a mate to come and helpl.

But if he is charging by the hour then its hours of work, not hours of standing around. It is unreasonable to charge for someone who is not doing the work. (this is based upon the assumption that batpigs bros wife is correct).

I wouldnt pay for work not done.

[Calm]

Hi Calm

If he gives a quote to get the job done then its not an issue who does what and for how long. he can do it all on his own or pay a mate to come and helpl.

But if he is charging by the hour then its hours of work, not hours of standing around. It is unreasonable to charge for someone who is not doing the work. (this is based upon the assumption that batpigs bros wife is correct).

I wouldnt pay for work not done.

So whose job do you suggest the contractor charge the $50 an hour out too?? - he is there so has to be paid by someone.

[Batpig]

Thanks Dazzler. It's pretty straightforward, hey.

Calm, you might be missing the whole point... I never replied to your text in red because it's basis is something that never happened, namely a rate being quoted by the contractor for an extra guy to come in whose job was to just stand around on his mobile phone and do nothing. I don't think anyone's ever quoted a rate for an extra guy to do that, ever...

I think you're getting confused with the possibility that was originally mentioned of an extra guy who might come in to run full-time on the Bobcat and Truck for an extra $50/hr. Read my previous post and you'll see how the setup is supposed to work with the extra guy. But there was no mention at any stage of bringing in an extra guy to just stand around for $50/hr.

Heck, if that was the case, I could bring all the guys from the Touch-Footy team in with me to your place, and even though I was the only one doing the work (and it took longer as a result) I could charge you for the whole team anyway (for the whole of that longer time too!) It's just too crazy for words...

Have a think about this: Dazzler and Bluegum both do Earthworks and both of them have said that you can't charge for a guy that's not doing any work. I think you'll find that the same applies for honest Tradies in any of the disciplines.

The answer to your question about who pays the extra $50/hr in your last post is therefore "No-one". Not my brother for one thing because he was never quoted a rate for, or agreed to, a $50/hr stand-about to be brought in. Certainly not the neighbour either because the guy wasn't standing about smoking and on his mobile phone in the neighbour's yard for all of the two days either - he smoked and made phone calls from both yards... :wink:

Best Wishes,
Batpig

[dazzler]

He sucks it up big time. If he is that stupid as to bring someone onto a worksite who cant operate the machinery without being shown how then bad luck. Pay him what hes worth. If he worked for 3 hours during the day then pay him for what he did.

Imagine you are going to have your house painted and the painter says a couple a days with five blokes a day @ $45 each.

You watch em and one of em cant paint but is being told how to. He aint no painter, he's a learner and is the problem of the main man or is paid as a labourer.

The whole thing could have been avoided if the earthmoving contractor had told them that he would need the help of bill, who is still learning and only does a few hours of actual work. Then you can decide whether you will accept learner bill at a reduced rate or pay the rate for an offsider who can do the job properly.

With my business I run the skidsteer and the tipper. I do one or the other at a flat $75 ph. This way no one is standing around twiddling thumbs.

cheers

dazzler

[chrisp]

Look at it from the "tradie's" point of view. He has to pay the second man for the day as he was under his employe - so who do you suggest he charge his time out to.

Calm,

It's simply not the consumer's problem! I'm sure the contractor has to pay things such as GST(:rolleyes:), worker's comp, insurance, income tax, fuel, maintenance, leave entitlements, wear and tear on the equipment, and heaps of other things. But so what? The agreement was x$ per hour (by implication) of work.

If I go and buy milk from the corner shop and it happens that I'm the only customer they've had all day, I don't expect to pay extra because someone has to pay the wages of the staff. As far as I'm concerned they're running a business selling milk and I just pay for the milk. The profitability, or the internal costs, of the business are not my concern.

[manoftalent]

I think most would agree that the work carried out over two days ...two men plus machines = $ 1700 something as being reasonable and fair price ....so the issue really is the guy standing around doing nothing .....well the job got done ...the price was fair ...leave it at that, and chalk it up to experiance....as tax payers we watch this practise over and over when councils dig up the road for repairs ...road gets ripped up and repaired .....then board of works come out and rip it up again to "clean up " the access valve covered partially by previous repairs ....then gas a fuel come out and rip it up and do the same ......to uncover their access valves ....cost of job .....3 times what it should have been, if all depts worked together...but that never happens

[Batpig]

I think most would agree that the work carried out over two days ...two men plus machines = $ 1700 something as being reasonable and fair price ....so the issue really is the guy standing around doing nothing .....well the job got done ...the price was fair ...leave it at that,

Hi Manoftalent,

The thing is, the price isn't fair. It wasn't "two men plus machines" - there was only 1 man working the machines. At $70/hr, over the course of the two shortish days, that works out to around $1000. That means there is about $700 of overcharging in the bill. Harder to accurately establish is the further amount of overcharging due to the time that the operator spent in the neighbour's yard during those two days, but for which my Bro is being slugged.

Best Wishes,
Batpig

[Bluegum]

He sucks it up big time. If he is that stupid as to bring someone onto a worksite who cant operate the machinery without being shown how then bad luck. Pay him what hes worth. If he worked for 3 hours during the day then pay him for what he did.

Imagine you are going to have your house painted and the painter says a couple a days with five blokes a day @ $45 each.

You watch em and one of em cant paint but is being told how to. He aint no painter, he's a learner and is the problem of the main man or is paid as a labourer.

The whole thing could have been avoided if the earthmoving contractor had told them that he would need the help of bill, who is still learning and only does a few hours of actual work. Then you can decide whether you will accept learner bill at a reduced rate or pay the rate for an offsider who can do the job properly.

With my business I run the skidsteer and the tipper. I do one or the other at a flat $75 ph. This way no one is standing around twiddling thumbs.

cheers

dazzler

I have to agree with you dazzler, when I was a learner I worked for the experience and a couple of times customers could see I was just a learner and hit the boss up for a discount. When I started getting paid its was for machine time only. your rate is quite cheap mate, its about $88 plus gst now around here for a bobcat and truck, combo is around 92. Tipper goes out at what ever is on the back of it plus tipping fees and travel,

[dazzler]

I also think $75 ph is a little low. Around here things are somewhat slower than other areas. Diesel costs alone will start to push up prices here like elsewhere. I am lucky in that I dont rely on the business to support the family as my wife keeps me :2tsup:. So I can have some breathing space while the business grows.

[Rossluck]

I also think $75 ph is a little low. Around here things are somewhat slower than other areas. Diesel costs alone will start to push up prices here like elsewhere. I am lucky in that I dont rely on the business to support the family as my wife keeps me :2tsup:. So I can have some breathing space while the business grows.


I'm so glad to read this Dazzler, because I was worried about the future of your business.:D I was concerned about your own pricing if you feel that Batpig's brother was ripped off by a drott operator, a bobcat operator, (with a truck) charging $1750 for two days. I actually ran this scenario past a friend who runs a drott business and he feel that Batpig's drott operator has to be on drugs to have charged so little. The important point to remember here is that a drott can do in ten minutes what a Bobcat takes an hour to do. As I've said before, this was an issue of expectations.

[Batpig]

As I've said before, this was an issue of expectations.
Rossluck - I guess my brother must have expected him to just charge the rate he quoted, which was $70/hr, instead of the rate he actually ended up charging, which was about $120/hr. Big Difference don't you think - especially if the guy won the job over another more honest operator who might have quoted more than $70/hr, but less than $120/hr. Regardless of whether or not the guy's missus was also working, it stinks as a Modus Operandi, and I reckon a lot of decent Tradies must have been done out of work in the past by similar tactics...

The misaligned expectations must be a regional thing too, because the neighbour is also in dispute with the guy for a variety of reasons, including an approximately 30% blowout of earthworks costs compared to her builder's estimates of the likely figure based on the rate the operator gave him when he first came around to see the site before the job started.

Best Wishes,
Batpig.

[dazzler]

If I had my bobcat working, my imaginary excavator working, and a bloke in me tipper I would charge $75 ph x 3 x 16hrs = $3600.00

If I had my bobcat working OR my tipper working, my imaginary excavator working then I would charge $75 x 2 x 16hrs = $2400

If I had my bobcat working OR my tipper working OR my imaginary excavator working then I would charge$75 x 1 x 16 = $1200

If batpigs scenario is correct there was only ever one machine working so thats all he is up for.

hes up for at least $1120 ($70ph agreed x 16hrs) for the bloke and his machine and then whatever the labourer is worth.

cheers

[Rossluck]

If I had my bobcat working, my imaginary excavator working, and a bloke in me tipper I would charge $75 ph x 3 x 16hrs = $3600.00

If I had my bobcat working OR my tipper working, my imaginary excavator working then I would charge $75 x 2 x 16hrs = $2400

If I had my bobcat working OR my tipper working OR my imaginary excavator working then I would charge$75 x 1 x 16 = $1200

If batpigs scenario is correct there was only ever one machine working so thats all he is up for.

hes up for at least $1120 ($70ph agreed x 16hrs) for the bloke and his machine and then whatever the labourer is worth.

cheers


Yes, I agree entirely. But I'd make two points. (1) Yours is a Bobcat and not a drott. A drott could pick up two tonnes of dirt and your bobcat and deposit them in said truck. Drott's cost more. (2) We'll never know if Batpig's scenario is correct; there are too many variables. I think he's being absolutely honest and so on, and showing wonderful concern for his brother's welfare, but in the end this situation needs to be judged by how much work was actually done.

Anyway, I didn't mean to reinvigorate the debate, I should have PM'd you. :D

[dazzler]

Debate is good :2tsup:

[rhancock]

If nothing else, it reinforces to those of us who have to quote for work, just how careful we need to be to ensure that the customer understands what and how we have quoted.