Tradies you gotta love them

[SAISAY]

'cause if you don't you'll kill them.
They make arrangements to deliver stuff, you change your appointments for the day and sit around waiting, then they never turn up :gaah:.
You call them at the end of the day to find out what is happening and they usually have an excuse for not turning up.
What's so difficult with calling the customer and telling them that they can't make it instead of wasting a whole day? :frustrated:
It is a different story if the customers cancel
Then they can wait until it suits the tradie to turn up :upset:
Wolffie

[weisyboy]

dont u know your time is worthless compered to theres.

[STAR]

Yes. And when their is a downturn in the economy, they are the first to squeal.

Then, they will wonder why some are put on a personal ban list, " Never to be called again. "

[SAISAY]

And then they wonder why so many people are DIY
Wolffie

[dlim2986]

And then they wonder why so many people are DIY
Wolffie
I got stuck in Moree where there was no tradies around, and to get a tradie to come around they charged $200 for call out and $120 an hour.

I am so over it, I finished by Carpenters course, then the Cert 4 to get the building licence, now I am doing the welding course at TAFE, next year I will be doing metal fabrication, year after that I will be doing the shortened plumbers course and the year after that I will be doing the shortened electrican's course. All while I am studying Law a university.

How busy am I?

[MrFixIt]

Hi

I got stuck in Moree where there was no tradies around, and to get a tradie to come around they charged $200 for call out and $120 an hour.

I am so over it, I finished by Carpenters course, then the Cert 4 to get the building licence, now I am doing the welding course at TAFE, next year I will be doing metal fabrication, year after that I will be doing the shortened plumbers course and the year after that I will be doing the shortened electrican's course. All while I am studying Law a university.

How busy am I?

But when you're a lawyer you can afford to pay those tradie's rates and more :D :2tsup:

[Andy Mac]

I am so over it, I finished by Carpenters course, then the Cert 4 to get the building licence, now I am doing the welding course at TAFE, next year I will be doing metal fabrication, year after that I will be doing the shortened plumbers course and the year after that I will be doing the shortened electrican's course. All while I am studying Law a university.How busy am I?
:D:D:D

I can empathise with that. Just got off the phone spewing about tradies, and went to post on another "Bag the Tradies" thread but Ruffly beat me to it!:p
Trying here desperately, stupidly, to renovate while being househusband. To the point now I wish we hadn't even started the job.
Had several quotes from electricians to connect this extension removal/house and they vary widely, no worries there. Had 3 plumbers visit and no quotes returned, 3 months later. The two are tied together on this job, as the power board and septic tank are very close together, so intend to share the trench. Electrician keen to go, so a week or so back I rang a trenching contractor to dig the bloody thing, regardless of plumber status. Agree to come this Monday gone; electricians in on Friday, ready to drop the conduit in as soon as the trench was ready. They turned up Monday to continue, upgraded power in, fitted switches, lights, smoke detectors, cleaned up loose wires from removal etc...rang the trencher "Where are ya?", "Oh I'm gonna come Wednesday morning instead" with no courtesy call to warn us. Then he rings back later, change that to lunchtime Wed. I tried desperately to find someone else but no-one available quickly.:( Electrician goes away saying ring us when its ready to go, then calls today asking if its done, better be quick because his van is in for a service and he's taking the rest of the week off, therefore won't be done till next week!
Now I've got 5 kids at home on holidays (3 of mine & 2 cousins) bored as usual, so at 11 (note to self, lunchtime is 12) I walked them up the back fence, flew a kite for half an hour, before returning to make sandwiches and await the trenching guy. No show, so I ring him...answered with "I've already called in and no one was home"!!!:~ Swear words and great kicking of inanimate objects. He can't make it here for the rest of the day, and booked up for the week.
I'm over it, I tell ya. Just about to the point of digging through 600mm of compacted clay to get the f.n cable in myself! Will continue with the extension lead as we have done since January.

Rant over. SNAFU

[Vernonv]

I'm over it, I tell ya. Just about to the point of digging through 600mm of compacted clay to get the f.n cable in myself!


Hire a dingo with the trencher attachment. From memory it cost me $150 or $200 for the day and I dug almost 100m of trench with it.

[dlim2986]

Hire a dingo with the trencher attachment. From memory it cost me $150 or $200 for the day and I dug almost 100m of trench with it.

What wrong with a shovel and a bit of elbow grease?

[SAISAY]

What wrong with a shovel and a bit of elbow grease?
From what I can see, Andy is not a Spring Chicken and he WAS talking about compacted clay. That takes a LOT of elbow grease to shift.
Wolffie

[Vernonv]

What wrong with a shovel and a bit of elbow grease?

Next time you're up my way, call in - I'd be happy for you to show me how it's done.:U

If you had ever really dug anything substantial in compacted clay, you wouldn't have even mentioned a shovel - about the only thing that works is a crowbar.

[silentC]

Yeah and when you're finished at Vernon's place, you can come down here. I've got some storm water trenches to dig and our clay sets like rock. If you can dig 600mm deep with a shovel alone, I'll eat what comes out of the hole :)

[dlim2986]

Yeah and when you're finished at Vernon's place, you can come down here. I've got some storm water trenches to dig and our clay sets like rock. If you can dig 600mm deep with a shovel alone, I'll eat what comes out of the hole :)

It should take no time with a shove like this

[Master Splinter]

Just remember that once you become the DIY expert (because you could never find a tradie) you'll find that you become the family fix it resource for all those jobs that they can't find a tradie for. You'll never have the time to do your own!

[journeyman Mick]

Just for a story from the flip side of the coin. I got a call from a lady a few weeks ago. This was a client who part way through a kitchen install declared she didn't like the design and that it was a poor design. She wanted me to fit some bi-fold doors to the pantry at my expense. I pointed out that she hadn't paid for the design but had approved my quote for the work which was designed to re-use the existing tops and give her the best kitchen for the smallest outlay possible. I could fit bi-folds but it would be an increased cost. After explaining that the contract was a legally binding document which I would enforce via the courts if neccesary she decided that she liked the design after all.

As per the original agreement she was picking and supplying the handles herself and I fitted them. She rang me to complain that they were falling off the doors and needed longer screws. I picked up some screws today and will fit them at no charge, however the screws and handles were supplied by her and it's not really my responsibility. I explained to her that when she bought the handles she was to specify the thickness of the panels (which I gave her in writing) to ensure that the correct screws would be supplied. Clients, you can't live with them, and you can't live without them.:~

Mick

[SAISAY]

Yes Mick, I agree that clients too can be a pain in the derrier but, the tradie still have the long end of the stick as he can enforce the contract, as you said.
What I am complaining about is those ones who have no respect for other peoples' time.
The client pays for the tradie's time and the tradie doesn't give a hoot what it is costing the client in wasted waiting time.
That said, I should not tar all of them with the same brush there are decent ones around but, they are few and far between.
Still friends???
Wolffie
BTW, we are in the process of fitting the lazy susan and we worked it out just fine.

[Frank&Earnest]

Sorry to continue the derail abouth Andy's trench, but there is a DIY solution you might want to try. I wanted to dig a basin for a water feature, 8m long, 1.8 wide, .4 deep and found out to my dismay that the compacted clay after the prolonged drought was the consistency of brick. And if Andy is no spring chicken, I am definitely a wintery one.

Solution: taken the head of a small garden spade (pointy, about 8" wide) and fitted it by means of a bush made drilling a 3" length of 1" steel rod to the bit for the trusty Ozito hammer drill.

Like woodcarving with a large gouge.:D

[Wongo]

Tradies, I need them. Without them I would have nothing to fix.


Sorry Mick :D

[dlim2986]

Sometimes it makes you wonder how the old timers use to do it with the invention of bobcats and excavators.

And how they use to chop sugar cane by hand.

Glad I wasn't born back in thoes days.

[Sawdust Maker]

:D:D:D

Now I've got 5 kids at home on holidays (3 of mine & 2 cousins) bored as usual, so at 11 (note to self, lunchtime is 12) I walked them up the back fence, flew a kite for half an hour, before returning to make sandwiches and await the trenching guy. No show, so I ring him...answered with "I've already called in and no one was home"!!!:~


Andy Mac
Now there is your problem/solution 5 kids, all bored! "hey, dig this small ditch for me and I'll shout movies ... and popcorn!":D
You only have to throw in the popcorn if you feel a movie isn't quite enough.
bargain:U

[autogenous]

Yes. And when their is a downturn in the economy, they are the first to squeal.Thats why I buy overseas :U
No one gives a crap. Theres always one whingin bitch :U

Plumbers and Leccies are so busy they dont give a crap because you dont give crap. They weren't born yesterday. They can read your attitudes like a book.

Yeah its called the non-preferred contractor database. *pfft*

Your fighting yourself not the trades. You'll have none left at this rate.

My mobile bill was $432 last month. Thats why tradies don't ring back.

I only do quotes after 5pm because I don't make money designing peoples projects for them for free so they can get 15 quotes.

Do 9-10 hours, home have a shower, quote, then home to do paperwork, paperwork, paperwork. :C

You know what clients are exactly the same.

You think the trade situation is bad now. Have a think back in 5 years time.

Ive got Rangers, Council compliance officers, Worksafe Officers, Unions, Builders liability contracts, and every MOFO tellin me how to do my job. Someones justifying their position.

don't ring me, Ill be in a desk job with you.

Everyone knows what their paid, but they don't know what they cost a business and their productivity rate.

If you have been waiting all day. Ring the trades person and ask where they are "if" you have an appointed time. If they don't answer after 3 rings. Lock the house and go where you were goin.

End of rant

[autogenous]

And then they wonder why so many people are DIY

Yeah there the ones that get you round to design their retaining wall then get the husband to do it. then in 3 weeks time ring back asking you to finish the wall because their husbands in hospital in spinal traction.

Problem is many trades make it look too easy.

[Burnsy]

You are right, you can pick clients you want to work for straight up, ones that I am iffy about have the PITA tax applied to their quote, complete DH's just don't get a quote.

I got caught out once and as the saying goes, once bitten twice shy. Visit this clown four times, redesigning and quoting a rock lined pond for him. Each time it was too expensive and "he would do it himself except he had a bad back" so he kept asking for cheaper options until we get down to a basic lined pond. I drive to another job the other side of town to take photos of a similar pond to show how you can see the liner and show him these. He aggrees to the quote, I do the work and then he refuses to pay saying he does not like it as you can see the liner. Luckily I had received two payments from him already so my costs were covered. Guy abuses me and tells me he will never pay and will see me in court. So I go down to the small claims tribunal and lodge a claim for bad debt - costs me around $100 to lodge and time but this guy has raised my ire.

Two months later we appear before the magistrate, magistrate tells him he does not believe that he did not see the photos beforehand and he must pay. Gives him a $200 discount because there was a change to the contract that we agreed on and I did not document it in an addendum. I didn't care because I got all the satisfaction in the world when he complained to the magistrate that he had had ambulance chaser lawyers and accountants ringing him because he was now included on the bad dbt register. My reply was "well you said you wanted to see me in court and that is the only way to get you here":U

There is the other foot though, I will not contract tradies myself that I have not had reffered to me or I have not worked with. On the few occasions I have I don't choose the cheapest quote but the one I got along with the best and gave the best advice when they came out. That is the best advice you will get.

[autogenous]

Ive only had two clients mess me around. Both Doctors and both in Dalkeith.

Note*Doctors in Dalkeith on non-preferred client database :)

Oh you got the dude whos just watched backyard blitz :D

Better you than me :D

Just picked up a job in an office. What a difference. I don't know what to do with me self when I get home now.

[autogenous]

Yes. And when their is a downturn in the economy, they are the first to squeal.

Then, they will wonder why some are put on a personal ban list, " Never to be called again. "

Its always the "supply and demand" line when supply exceeds demand.

Then when theres a lack of trades their all makin too much money. Go figure.

And then they wonder why they cant get good trades anymore.

The whole culture. It amazes me. The hate. The hate. Screw the tradie, screw the tradie.

The bureaucracy, The legislation, The business costs, The bull****

Hang on, where have all the trades all gone. :)

[journeyman Mick]

Yes Mick, I agree that clients too can be a pain in the derrier but, the tradie still have the long end of the stick as he can enforce the contract, as you said.........

Yeah but in a lot of cases you just let it go because it's not worth all the aggravation. In this particular case she owed me more than $5k so I was not going to let it go. If it's under $1k you start to ask yourself whether you mightn't be better off letting it go and going to work and making money.


..........Still friends???.

Hell yeah, wasn't directing my post at you, just showing the other side of the coin.

Mick

[astrid]

Whinge whinge bitch bitch,

I am always on time and always ring if I'm running late.
If you guys knew the number of times a tradie goes out to give a quote and the client dosent turn up,
Or they'll try to be smart and trick you over to look at a $50 job and then say they call you after easter.
half of a tradies hourly rate is to make up for the time wasters and smart a rses.

Astrid

[autogenous]

Or they'll try to be smart and trick you over to look at a $50 job and then say they call you after easter.Can you give me a break down on that so I can DYI it cuz I don't know what I need.

Can you "Just" do this as well while your here.

Oh by the way want all those power cables and the pipe built in as well.

Get there now, oh hang on the truck hasn't turned up.

Whinge whinge, bitch bitch. I dhate to turn up to Wolfies place. Another 2 hours advice , $10 worth of mobile calls and $20 worth of fuel wasted.

[Andy Mac]

Hi there,
Regards digging that trench by hand, Nah! my back wouldn't take that for long:(. Already dug the hole to locate existing septic pipe, which was 600mm under (the tank itself was buried by 300mm) and that wore me down!! Didn't think of hiring a Dingo trencher, but might give that a go when I get to water supply and stormwater drainage. We are spoiled now...did anyone see that "Worst jobs" series, about railway construction workers digging cuttings by shovel and barrow! Next they'll tell me people put screws in without a battery drill!:rolleyes:
Anyway, some faith restored since yesterday's bleat. I got onto another earthworks contractor who happened to be heading home (in this direction) because he was rained out on the other side of Toowoomba. Barely a sprinkle here. He started digging the 10m trench by 2pm so I got onto the electrician, who baulked at first but decided to give it a go. Laid the conduit as the bobcat was still digging and then post holing...bit of drama there because he had to cross the trench via blocks of timber. Managed to dig up 1 watertank overflow pipe, one disconnected 3phase powerline (this place used to be a farm with a shed that's now on neighbour's property), one unknown irrigation polypipe, and an empty Telstra conduit!! Bobcat gone in 3 hrs; electricians worked untill 7, and because its a removal house, checked earths on every powerpoint and light, run through rcd's and repair a couple of things. Still have a problem with feed to electric stove, but basically the extension is fully powered!:) (means I can get a warming mat for the home brew!) Gave the guys a beer despite the youngster getting mobile calls from his girlfriend, "Where are ya, I've been worried...".

Now for the plumbing...autogenous, you interested?:D

Cheers,

[echnidna]

"Next they'll tell me people put screws in without a battery drill!"

Real easy ter do Andy, first find a big hammer .....

[RichI]

The tradies I use are all either friends I know from my local community or relatives of friends. It means I treat them with respect as I have to live with or near them in the future. The issue works for them in reverse. The fact that there is some respect in the process seems to remove most risks of problems.

I treat these guys with a degree of flexibility as I know they are trying to earn a living. So I don't moan about a delay in arrival. Then when on the occasions I have an emergency they remember this and treat me fairly too. I have applied this rule to sparkies, plumbers and chippies and never had a problem.

[silentC]

That can work against you though.

Two guys I knew in Sydney: one a plumber the other a tiler. Both good mates. The plumber got a big contract to do a heap of bathrooms in a block of units. The tiler hadn't done any tiling for a long time, reckoned his old man had taught him. He was out of work so the plumber offered him the tiling contract. Eight bathrooms later the plumber goes around to check the job. All the floors are flat and the floor wastes are proud of the tiles. They're not mates any more. :)

[nev25]

Whinge whinge bitch bitch,

I am always on time and always ring if I'm running late.
If you guys knew the number of times a tradie goes out to give a quote and the client dosent turn up,
Or they'll try to be smart and trick you over to look at a $50 job and then say they call you after easter.
half of a tradies hourly rate is to make up for the time wasters and smart a rses.

Astrid

Well Said Astrid :2tsup:

[autogenous]

Eight bathrooms later the plumber goes around to check the job. All the floors are flat and the floor wastes are proud of the tiles. They're not mates any more. :)Some common sense would mean you check during the first job.

I pay all me trade mates full goin rate when they do a job. No mates rates.
I know the job will be done right then.:)
Anyone who's a tradies knows their on going business costs.

I just paid my uncle whos a bobcat driver $200 more than what he had asked which was the goin rate. He had to travel. It was a dusty job.
Next time I ring him. He'll be down in a shot.

I have people ringing me up asking who did the work. It looks fantastic. They need a bobcat driver. He wouldnt travel that far under normal circumstances.

[Wongo]

We always treat tradesmen with respect. My inlaws are always friendly and flexible with the tradies. We always offer them coffee, drinks and lunch. It is all well and good most of the times.

But when it comes to business they will always put themselves first and they always have a good reason for it.

Trouble is the bad tradies are giving the good ones a bad name. I have been fixing up my sister-in-law’s new house. Looking at some of the stuff done by the tradesmen makes wonder how do these people sleep at ngiht.

[Wongo]

What will you do??

You are installing an air-con system.
You are going to cut holes in the floor.
You know some the floor boards will be unsupported and will collapse easily. (see the red area)

What will you do??

Will you,
1. Fix it for free because I am the one who cuts the hole in the first place?
2. Leave it but alert owner of the house of the problem (or offer to fix it with extra cost)?
3. Do your job and go. When they find out a few months late it is not your problem anymore?

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=70889&stc=1&d=1207791443

[Vernonv]

Should they have (or would they have) realised that that section of floor would need support post cutting and included the cost of said support in the original quote?

[chrisp]

1. Fix it for free because I am the one who cuts the hole in the first place?
2. Leave it but alert owner of the house of the problem (or offer to fix it with extra cost)?
3. Do your job and go. When they find out a few months late it is not your problem anymore?

or

4. bang a few small nails through the plastic duct into the edge of the floorboards to support the cantilevered floorboards?

(What happened at my place:()

[Wongo]

Here is another classic example. It sure looks great until the screw comes loss in a few months time.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=70891&stc=1&d=1207793620

[Wongo]

or

4. bang a few small nails through the plastic duct into the edge of the floorboards to support the cantilevered floorboards?

(What happened at my place:()


So it is a common practise then. It is exactly the same as my sister-in-law's new house.

Sorry to hear that mate.

[rumplestiltskin]

I'm a bit surprised at how many ppl want to hit us with a big stick!

Where possible I always give a bracketed time ie "between 12 and 1" or if that's no good then I'll RBG ring before going.

Just like there are good and bad tradies there are good and bad customers. I wish I had a dollar for every time I'd been stood up or dicked around despite being on time and calling as promised. Sh*t happens hey.

It's damn hard work running a small business that provides trade services. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, everyone thinks they are your boss and nobody wants to pay. And let me tell you, of that 70 bucks an hour I charge I only end up with about a dollar of it in my pocket by the time you add up all the non-billable hours I had to do to support it.

So yeah sometimes we're late and sometimes we're not. It's the customers that show some respect that get the good service, and the whingers that get to wait til I'm ready.

I'm proud to be a tradie and wouldn't change careers for quids.

[boban]

What will you do??

You are installing an air-con system.
You are going to cut holes in the floor.
You know some the floor boards will be unsupported and will collapse easily. (see the red area)

What will you do??

Will you,
1. Fix it for free because I am the one who cuts the hole in the first place?
2. Leave it but alert owner of the house of the problem (or offer to fix it with extra cost)?
3. Do your job and go. When they find out a few months late it is not your problem anymore?

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=70889&stc=1&d=1207791443


or just tell the owner that they are not bearers:D Seriously, I would hit you for extra from the beginning, ie, at the quote stage or as soon as I found out that would need to provide additional support.

In general, this thread highlights what I love about the homeowners. Always ready to bitch about how much a tradie earns and always looking to screw them down on the price. Is it any wonder that many tradies take short cuts when the they face idiots who have no idea.

Not having a go at you Wongo because I know you are a decent bloke, but how many people would tell the tradie to stick it up his rear end if he asked for more money to provide some blocking between the joists. That is why they do it, to avoid the arguments. It is wrong I know but understandable.

Nothing worse than dealing with desk jockeys who spend all day on forums and think they know it all. They do, just ask google.

[nev25]

Here is another classic example. It sure looks great until the screw comes loss in a few months time.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=70891&stc=1&d=1207793620

I would properly use these

http://www.macsim.com.au/products/Anchoring/anka_plug.php


As far as the original post goes I would tell the owner they need to get chippie in to do the bracing then it becomes there problem.

Similar problem when I (a sparkie) need to pull roofing sheets of to run wires though.
I tell the owner (Client) they need to get a plumber/roof person in to remove replace the sheets (Or I build the cost into the quote) then if the roof leaks its not my problem.
After all its there trade

[SAISAY]

No one gives a crap. Theres always one whingin bitch :U
If you have been waiting all day. Ring the trades person and ask where they are "if" you have an appointed time. If they don't answer after 3 rings. Lock the house and go where you were goin.
End of rant


Whinge whinge, bitch bitch. I dhate to turn up to Wolfies place. Another 2 hours advice , $10 worth of mobile calls and $20 worth of fuel wasted.
EXCUSE ME.
First of all I am not a female dog and as such cannot be a bitch. I take great exception to be called something like that.:((

Note to self: Add rudeness to my vent about tradies.

Secondly, I was NOT asking for a quote, I was waiting for the material to be delivered and the job done. I sat there all day waiting, thinking that MAYBE another job had delayed them.

Thirdly, before we retired, we ran a painter and decorator business, so I know all about clients asking about quotes and not calling back, hence I would NEVER EVER waste another person's time but neither would I accept an outrageous price or bad workmanship.

On the other hand I HAVE been waiting 6 months for a roofer to call me and give me a quote for replacing my roof.

Mind you, the small place where I live, we cannot pick and choose.

Wolffie

[Frank&Earnest]

Similar problem when I (a sparkie) need to pull roofing sheets of to run wires though.
I tell the owner (Client) they need to get a plumber/roof person in to remove replace the sheets (Or I build the cost into the quote) then if the roof leaks its not my problem.
After all its there trade

Hopefully, you are young and willing to learn. In the same situation, I, the client, suggested to the electrician that I was happy to call in a roof plumber and he said that he was perfectly competent to do the job, it happens so frequently that he could not work effectively otherwise. He did not charge extra, it was up to him to choose the best access way for the job.

All anecdotes may provide some fun reading, but do not shed any new light on the topic. Just think of a grid where the client/tradie interaction is between two people who broadly fall into these categories:

Tradie:
1) Good worker - does a honest day work for a honest day pay
2) Skimmer - can do a good job but quotes triple and only deals with suckers or people in desperate need
3) Hacker - cuts corners, mostly because of incompetence and/or greed

Client:
1) Sucker
2) Competent - know what they want and are prepared to pay a fair price
3) PITA - don't really know what they want but it has to be cheap.

You know the joke of the people in the mental asylum who laughed when one of them shouted a number? They knew all the jokes already, so they had numbered them and did not need to tell all the story again. In this asylum now we can shout: 1-3! 2-1! :D

[chrisp]

It is interesting to read the large number of responses to Wongo's "What will you do?" scenarios. Only one response so far...

Unfortunately, to most "homeowners" getting a tradie is truly a hit-and-miss affair. Sadly, it seems most homeowners can recount bad experiences with engaging, or even attempting to engage, tradies. Yep, I'm sure there are PITA clients and there are many good tradies, but unfortunately there seem to be many bad tradies.

How many of you would be willing to pick an unknown tradie at random out of the phone book, ask them to do a job, and be confident that the job will be: (a) done, (b) done right, (c) done well, and (d) that you will not be over charged?

Maybe some of the trade associations should work harder at trying to tidy up their own industry rather than trying to maintain a closed shop.

Perhaps I'm one of those PITA clients, but in order to sort the wheat from the chaff I'll question a tradie on all sorts of aspects of the proposed job. Why? Its not because I'm trying to work out how to do the job myself (there are much better ways of finding information, and I wouldn't consider it ethical to gain information under false pretenses) What I'm trying to is find out how the tradie intends to go about the job to see if it up to my expectation.

Hell, sometimes I'll even play dumb to see if they are going to try and rip me off!

What they mightn't realise is that I've done a fair bit of homework and I'll have a fair idea of the cost and effort involved. For example, when having gas central heating installed, I'd read up on the clearance regulations, check energy ratings, contact the manufacturers, have obtained and read a copy of the manufacturers installation manuals - before I ring a tradie for a quote. (I sorted a few issues with brands, models, and location of the unit but I still got caught by the first "What will you do?" scenario Wongo posted:().

And BTW, I usually don't go with the cheapest quote. I go with the quote that I'm fairly confident that will do the job right (or rightest:rolleyes:). I'm not "looking to screw them down", I'm trying to get the job done right first time to save me the grief associated with call backs.

I would properly use these

http://www.macsim.com.au/products/Anchoring/anka_plug.php


Gee, maybe I am a difficult customer! I wouldn't use a anchor on a tiled hollow wall to hold a towel rail. Why? At my place the towel rails tend to get used as "steadies" to hold while drying your feet. I'd be concerned that the flexing of the wall would loosen the tiles. So how have I done it? I've ensured that the screws went into a wall stud at each end of the towel rail (I adjusted the length of the rail to suit).
[Sorry Nev, I'm not really having a go at you. Its just you have provided the only response to Wongo's questions for me to bounce off.]

I'm not trying to have a go at tradies. I have many tradie friends and work colleagues and value and respect their skills. But it does seem that there are many rogues out there after a quick buck.

Chris ("1-2")

[Frank&Earnest]

Chris ("1-2")
:)) Frank INTJ

[Barry_White]

From what I can see, Andy is not a Spring Chicken and he WAS talking about compacted clay. That takes a LOT of elbow grease to shift.
Wolffie

I don't know about being a Spring Chicken at 49 but he certainly isn't a worn out old rooster. When I was that age and building my house I dug over 300 metres of trenches by hand using a shovel and a bar some up to 3 feet deep for the electrical, water, stormwater and septic as well as the adsorption trenches for the septic as well as the hole for the septic tank 7 feet deep by six feet in diameter. Apart from the topsoil all the subsoil had to be barred with the pinch bar.

All this was in granite soil during a drought which goes as hard as concrete. The last three feet of the septic tank hole was gravely clay.

That was in the days before Dingo or Kango machines and I couldn't afford to hire a Bobcat or Backhoe operator. So it can be done in a pinch.

Apart from that I dug probably another 100 metres for a dripper system in the orchard.

Probably at the age of 69 I would have difficulty doing it but then I was young and silly.

[Brickie]

The same old tired story about some tradie doing some poor wickle :bawl:innocent public person out of something.

The number of times Ive been to look at a job and the poor wickle person isnt even home, even after making an appointment.When I ring they declare all innocence about making the appointment.

I had to go back to a job Id finished ages ago to replace some bricks the client had deemed to be too orange, the whole house was orange.:?

Have a look at the pic and tell me which ones they are?

Next time you need to bitch about tradies give the poor person a bit of credit.

[Barry_White]

Have a look at the pic and tell me which ones they are?



I see the problem its the ends of the half bricks and if you had of end for ended them he would of complained about the rough end. Face it Brickie you just can't win against us whining customers.

[SAISAY]

EXCUSE ME.
First of all I am not a female dog and as such cannot be a bitch. I take great exception to be called something like that.:((

Note to self: Add rudeness to my vent about tradies.

Secondly, I was NOT asking for a quote, I was waiting for the material to be delivered and the job done. I sat there all day waiting, thinking that MAYBE another job had delayed them.

Thirdly, before we retired, we ran a painter and decorator business, so I know all about clients asking about quotes and not calling back, hence I would NEVER EVER waste another person's time but neither would I accept an outrageous price or bad workmanship.

On the other hand I HAVE been waiting 6 months for a roofer to call me and give me a quote for replacing my roof.

Mind you, the small place where I live, we cannot pick and choose.

Wolffie

Originally posted by Brickie
Next time you need to bitch about tradies give the poor person a bit of credit.As I said above and I STILL resent being called a bitch :((
To add to that, I had to cancel a specialist appointment 2 1/2 hours drive away that I had been waiting 9 months to get.
My next door neighbour had to wait 18 months to get a broken window replaced because the job wasn't worth the glaziers while.

Wolffie

[Jasey]

To all the tradies on here using those clients that either aren't home, don't want to pay or complain about workmanship unfairly as excuses for poor manners - get real. I think you'll find that most people who need a tradesman are flexible and pretty understanding. If you need a tradesman you just want to be shown some BASIC respect by a) calling if you are to be unreasonably late or not be able to make it b) spend a reasonable amount of time determining what the actual requirements and costs are.

Everyone understands that you don't get paid for quotes, driving, paperwork etc. I just hate it when a tradesman say "well sometimes I get stood up etc so I won't bother calling anyone!". Its the job! Don't complain to me about your bloody mobile bill - if that is what it cost you to run a business with RESPECT to your customers then add it in for crying out loud.

Its only a phone call - you should consider it a part of your job.

And those people you are quoting for-most of them do jobs that YOU need also - maybe your dentist should just close the door on you when you need something done.

[ravlord13]

Hey Brickie,
I'd be more worried about the bL**dy great crack down the middle :o




Just Joking, don't throw a brick at me it would probably break your computer monitor.
Andrew

[Brickie]

Originally posted by Brickie
Next time you need to bitch about tradies give the poor person a bit of credit.As I said above and I STILL resent being called a bitch :((
To add to that, I had to cancel a specialist appointment 2 1/2 hours drive away that I had been waiting 9 months to get.
My next door neighbour had to wait 18 months to get a broken window replaced because the job wasn't worth the glaziers while.

Wolffie

Twernt aimed at you so settle down, unless you feel the need to be victimised of course?

[Brickie]

[code]
To add to that, I had to cancel a specialist appointment 2 1/2 hours drive away that I had been waiting 9 months to get.


Owwh please...............I wouldnt cancel an appointment of that magnitude for anyone or anything..:doh:

[Big Shed]

T

Next time you need to bitch about tradies give the poor person a bit of credit.

The adjectives bitchy and bitchin' and the verb to bitch evolved from the noun bitch. All of these derivative forms tend to be less offensive than the noun form, although it is clear that most derivations of the term originate from the insulting meaning of "bitch."
From this usage of bitch as "complain", the colloquial noun bitch-fest evolved, to describe people complaining about something together. Used in its verb form, to bitch is considered significantly less offensive than the noun bitch. It is not uncommon for people to say that they are "bitching" about something, whereas it is less common for someone to call himself or herself a "bitch." Although "to bitch" may maintain some of its feminine specificity, men are also commonly said to be "bitching" when they are complaining extensively about something (thus implying they are acting feminine).
The use of the term "bitching" has been extended to the common sewing or crafting get together known as a "stitch-n-bitch". At these gathering women (and occasionally men) gather to work on projects and talk or complain.

Extract from Wikipedia entry on Bitch

[SAISAY]

The adjectives bitchy and bitchin' and the verb to bitch evolved from the noun bitch. All of these derivative forms tend to be less offensive than the noun form, although it is clear that most derivations of the term originate from the insulting meaning of "bitch."
From this usage of bitch as "complain", the colloquial noun bitch-fest evolved, to describe people complaining about something together. Used in its verb form, to bitch is considered significantly less offensive than the noun bitch. It is not uncommon for people to say that they are "bitching" about something, whereas it is less common for someone to call himself or herself a "bitch." Although "to bitch" may maintain some of its feminine specificity, men are also commonly said to be "bitching" when they are complaining extensively about something (thus implying they are acting feminine).
The use of the term "bitching" has been extended to the common sewing or crafting get together known as a "stitch-n-bitch". At these gathering women (and occasionally men) gather to work on projects and talk or complain.

Extract from Wikipedia entry on Bitch
And this one fits where?

"Theres always one whingin bitch"???

Wolffie

[Brickie]

And this one fits where?

"Theres always one whingin bitch"???

Wolffie

Give a rest Wolffie.

[Big Shed]

And this one fits where?

"Theres always one whingin bitch"???

Wolffie

Didn't see that one Wolffie, I saw you take Brickie to task and "assumed" that was what you were referring to:(

I have now found the other reference which was totally uncalled for and I fully understand you taking exception to it, in fact I'm surprised it hasn't attracted "official" attention.

[Brickie]

I find it really strange that one member of the forum can hang shyte on anothers, but cant take it when the shyte is chucked back? :?

Most strange.....:?

[Frank&Earnest]

I fully understand you taking exception to it, in fact I'm surprised it hasn't attracted "official" attention.

Ditto. On the other hand, we had already established (right, Boban?) that there seems to be a rather lax appreciation of defamation law in this forum.

[SAISAY]

Thank you so much Big Shed and F&E.
Wolffie

[Andy Mac]

I don't know about being a Spring Chicken at 49 but he certainly isn't a worn out old rooster. When I was that age and building my house I dug over 300 metres of trenches by hand using a shovel and a bar some up to 3 feet deep for the electrical, water, stormwater and septic as well as the adsorption trenches for the septic as well as the hole for the septic tank 7 feet deep by six feet in diameter. Apart from the topsoil all the subsoil had to be barred with the pinch bar.

All this was in granite soil during a drought which goes as hard as concrete. The last three feet of the septic tank hole was gravely clay.

That was in the days before Dingo or Kango machines and I couldn't afford to hire a Bobcat or Backhoe operator. So it can be done in a pinch.

Apart from that I dug probably another 100 metres for a dripper system in the orchard.

Probably at the age of 69 I would have difficulty doing it but then I was young and silly.


You've got me there, I have to admit to being a touch lazy now, and spoiled by too many years "working" at the uni!:rolleyes: If I had to do it I would and I do have a large crow bar, but I'd be buggered and then who would cook and wash and all that! My back isn't what it used to be, maybe from years as a heavy machinery fitter in the field. For a lark once I went onion picking when I was about 30. My God my back was sore, so much so that it was easier to just walk around doubled over than to try standing up straight!!:o
Back to the tradies thing, I guess those in the building industry esp. self employed, there is a different set of rules or expectations. What I mean is if I was late to job on a road build by half an hour, to fix a paving machine with 3 or 4 trucks with dogs full of wet concrete lined up in front, I would have got the flick big time and had buckley's of getting another start in the same game in Brisbane. All for the glory of $20K back in the late 80's. It was a mugs game:~.

Cheers,

[Wongo]

I do most of the stuff myself so I don’t usually need a tradesman. When I do I won’t go out of my way to get the “best” quote. I am happy with a fair quote. When the job is well done, I even give them a small bonus. :2tsup:

I agree that there are bad tradies as well as bad homeowners out there. In the case of bad tradies, the homeowners suffer. How often do tradies suffer financially? Not very often I would say.

Re my "What will you do?" scenarios. To cut a hole on floor like that and just walk away is wrong. It is just wrong, no justifications needed.

[Brickie]

How often do tradies suffer financially? Not very often I would say.



You cant be serious Scott? :?

I dont do work for the private sector.

The owners think they know everything there is to know about everything, they get in the way, always want the bestest job doing for the cheapest price, when they see you actually making a quid they interrupt the work to slow you down, they come up with the most inane excuses to not pay.

Sure there are some tradies that even I wouldnt use, but there are more owner builders/renovators I wouldnt touch.

No thanks, Ill keep battling with the builders. :p

[journeyman Mick]

........... How often do tradies suffer financially? Not very often I would say................

How often? Too often.:(( Even once is too often (and it's definitely been more than once for me). Imagine if you wage slaves had your pay docked by a few hundred or a few thousand just because the boss was in a bad mood or decided they would change their mind about what you were doing. Sure you could get the money back if you were willing to spend enough time and money to take it to court, provided of course the boss hadn't dissappeared or declared themselves bankrupt. I had one client stuff me around to the tune of thousands just before Christmas one year. Had a very lean "festive" season that year.:((

Mick

[Wongo]

Al and Mick, settle down you 2. :D I said not very often not never.

I am speaking for million good honest homeowners out there. People like my in-laws who have to pay twice to get a job done. One to a bad tradesman, another one to a good tradesman to fix it. (and I conside you 2 are good tradesmen's group)

[Calm]

Not a tradie - a business - but here is an actual event that happened on Saturday.

My 2 daughters and SIL went to a bed shop to buy a new bed & mattress for another daughter who will be 21 on thursday.

They found a bed "unit" they liked but thought the mattress was not good enough so they changed the mattress to a better/dearer one (pillowtop), didn't want the doona and pillows.

The bed was $475 and the mattress was $499 and they negotiated $824 for the lot (mattress $349) and paid on my credit card.

While at Erns turnfest in Melbourne the shop rang and a very embarrassed salesman told me he had made a mistake in the calcs and it was $100 short. the mattress should have been $449 ($50 off). He asked me if i could pay the extra $100 as he would get into trouble big time. I said to him that it was their mistake and i wasn't obligated to do anything.

After some more discussion i made a proposal.............i'll finish this later


WHAT WOULD YOU DO.

[Wongo]

I would pay him.

[SAISAY]

What would I do?
HONESTLY?
I would realise that getting $150 off the price of the mattress would need the approval of his superior and that he had made a mistake.
He would have to reimburse his employer out of is wages or maybe lose his job and I would feel terrible about that.
If you had been OVERCHARGEd you would have no hesitation asking the shop for a refund, would you?
Wolffie

[Groggy]

If you had been OVERCHARGEd you would have no hesitation asking the shop for a refund, would you?Maybe the question is - would the shop call him if they had overcharged him? :think:

I'd check the prices carefully and if it was a genuine mistake I'd try to come to some arrangement.

Legally I guess you accepted their offer and that is the end of it. Morally I reckon you need to find a solution you both can live with. There's going to be a bunch of different opinions on this one!

[Frank&Earnest]

Maybe the question is - would the shop call him if they had overcharged him? :think:

I'd check the prices carefully and if it was a genuine mistake I'd try to come to some arrangement.

Legally I guess you accepted their offer and that is the end of it. Morally I reckon you need to find a solution you both can live with. There's going to be a bunch of different opinions on this one!

Broadly, yes. Legally, though, there is also the issue of "patent error". If the bill, for example, reads 475+449= 824 the seller would be quite entitled to issue an amended invoice.

[Wongo]

If you think $924 for the lot is not what you wish to pay then you should have the right to at least cancel the deal. Otherwise pay him.

The guy probably just had him first child. He was up all night nursing the baby. Thursday was the fist day he went back to work. Feeling extremely tired and exhausted he miscalculated the price. The manager gave him a hard time and he is facing the possibility of losing the job.


Just give the bloke a chance.

[Calm]

This is interesting to see the responses. When i got home i checked the invoice to the credit card paper and all additions were correct and the amounts on both bits of paper were the same.

Answer later after some more "Honest John" replies.

[Big Shed]

I think Wongo's reply is relevant. Would you still have purchased this item for $100 more? If not then you should be able to return it and get your money back.

[Brickie]

I think Wongo's reply is relevant. Would you still have purchased this item for $100 more? If not then you should be able to return it and get your money back.

:whs:

[echnidna]

I actually wonder if the tradie members should boycott offering advice to members who continually bag tradies

[chrisp]

Would you still have purchased this item for $100 more? If not then you should be able to return it and get your money back.

I think Big Shed is on the money here. To ask for more money (understandably in this case to cover a mistake), effectively asks me to to void the original agreement and reopens the negotiation process. I'd ask them how much they are prepared to sell me the items for. I'd, in turn, reserve the right to retract from the deal altogether (i.e. money back).

Question to Calm, did you know you were being undercharged at the time? Did the seller say something like "I'll give you $100 discount" or did they say something like "I'll do the lot for $824"?

[petersemple]

Maybe I've just had a good run. I've not often had queries about the quality of a tradie's work. The ones that have been running late or whatever have called to let me know that they are late and why. As a result, I would happily do business with them again. I have had a few come and measure up and then never send the quotes (even after a few calls). They just don't get the work - their choice I guess. A pain that they wasted my time turning up and measuring, but then they miss the work and someone else got it - and friends looking to get similar work done are warned not to bother with said company.

Peter

[Calm]

Question to Calm, did you know you were being undercharged at the time? Did the seller say something like "I'll give you $100 discount" or did they say something like "I'll do the lot for $824"?

Daughters did the deal and just worked on the total amount. When i told them about the phone call and checked the receipts, they said that compared to where else they had checked, it was a good price and with the $100 on it would be about the same.

From a legal point of view
- i am entitled to make them stick to the amount paid.
- the sale can only be cancelled with my consent (obviously they would agree)
- to pay the extra $100 is totally my decision.
- The salesman was not a kid there were actually 3 employees doing the talking/showing/calulating, they were all experienced people.

[Sturdee]

I would pay the amount negotiated and not a penny more. It is not my responsibility if the staff made an error my way and I would hold them to it.

Further if they tried to cancel the order I would sue them for any loss I might have in purchasing elsewhere.

Anyway knowing the mark up on furniture the shop is not losing money on this deal, they are just not making as much profit as they would otherwise.


Peter.

[chrisp]

Assuming that you shopped around beforehand, if I could get exactly the same items cheaper elsewhere, I'd point this out to them and ask them to match the next cheapest price. If the closest other price was over $100 more I'd pay them the $100.

At the same time I'd be somewhat concerned as to the profitability of that outfit if they can't wear a one-off $100 mistake, and also a little concerned that three salespeople cannot produce the correct figure in the first place! I'd be a little worried they'll muck up the rest of the order too.

[Wongo]

I actually wonder if the tradie members should boycott offering advice to members who continually bag tradies

Why? I appreciate good tradies who give advice to others. I point out bad tradies who do sub-standard jobs. 2 separate issues here

[SAISAY]

Maybe the question is - would the shop call him if they had overcharged him? :think:


Probably not, although I have had precisely that happen to me.
The one who will be out of money would most likely the one to make the call.

Different scenario:
Our local IGA employ a lot of highschool kids, not because they want child labour but because there are a lot of financially disadvantaged families here and they are very community minded.
My next door neighbour's daughter is 14, she was teaching another 14 years old girl the ins and outs of the check-out.
She had to go and check the price of a mug that the customer disputed the price on.
In the meantime the customer finalised the transaction and asked for $30 cash-out on her plastic. The young kid mistakenly gave her $300 instead of $30.
The customer walked away without saying a word and, because the girl next door was the one signed in on the register, she got the blame. Fortunately for her, the video was on and could prove that she was away when it happened but the young trainee had to pay that mistake out of her wages.
I know where MY synpaties lie her and it is NOT with the customer.
Wolffie

[Wongo]

You are a hard man Peter.

[madrat]

I would pay the amount negotiated and not a penny more. It is not my responsibility if the staff made an error my way and I would hold them to it.
Peter.

I have got to agree with Peter on this one.

I have been following this thread and please don't get me wrong, as I can definitely see both sides to the argument.

At the risk of sounding harsh and heartless towards the salesperson here, for whatever reason he/she made the mistake, he/she still had a job to do and do it right.

After having to 'wear' mistakes, mis-quotes (if that's a word??) myself, it got to a point with me that I was just fed up with 'excuses'.

Personally, I think that people need to take responsibility for their mistakes. We all make them at one stage or another (myself included:doh:), but what you do about it, is what counts. Whether that's accepting your screw up and learning from it or compromising to fix it.

I had a similar conversation with a tradie this morning regarding wrongly scheduled appointments. My beef was not with him, he was just the poor b*stard who was in the middle. My beef was with his Office who screwed it up in the first place.

I work with tradies and I am very mindful that they may not necessarily be the one at fault when it comes to these types of screw ups.

At least I was able to commend him on calling me prior to the visit.:;

Then I get to work and find that the bank has charged me an 'over charge' fee on my credit card.:((

When I rang to query it, the bank rep very kindly apologised and advised that it would be credited back, as it was an error on their part. One I am sure I would have paid for if I didn't pick it up??? (apologies for my lack of trust in humanity).

If the salesperson gave Calm's daughters a total price for the 'package deal', and he/she made a mistake, then I think in this particular case, the store should wear the error, not the customer.

(Kind of ties in with a recent thread on customer service of late).

And to Wolffie's original note, I also have to agree with you. I just don't see why it is so hard for people to make a call if they are unable to make it and that applies to the customer as well..

(now I will hop off the fence I have been sitting on...:U and continue to watch this thread..)

[Calm]

Not a tradie - a business - but here is an actual event that happened on Saturday.

My 2 daughters and SIL went to a bed shop to buy a new bed & mattress for another daughter who will be 21 on thursday.

They found a bed "unit" they liked but thought the mattress was not good enough so they changed the mattress to a better/dearer one (pillowtop), didn't want the doona and pillows.

The bed was $475 and the mattress was $499 and they negotiated $824 for the lot (mattress $349) and paid on my credit card.

While at Erns turnfest in Melbourne the shop rang and a very embarrassed salesman told me he had made a mistake in the calcs and it was $100 short. the mattress should have been $449 ($50 off). He asked me if i could pay the extra $100 as he would get into trouble big time. I said to him that it was their mistake and i wasn't obligated to do anything.

After some more discussion i made a proposal.............i'll finish this later


WHAT WOULD YOU DO.


Daughters did the deal and just worked on the total amount. When i told them about the phone call and checked the receipts, they said that compared to where else they had checked, it was a good price and with the $100 on it would be about the same.

From a legal point of view
- i am entitled to make them stick to the amount paid.
- the sale can only be cancelled with my consent (obviously they would agree)
- to pay the extra $100 is totally my decision.
- The salesman was not a kid there were actually 3 employees doing the talking/showing/calulating, they were all experienced people.

I am sure the mistake was that the discount was calculated on $399 not $499. The company would have worn the mistake i am sure.

I said to them that it was their mistake and i would meet them half way.

Today i went in and paid the $50 on my credit card.

The manager thanked me and said the bed would be delivered on Thursday between 2 & 4 as previously arranged.

I thought that was a fair deal and one i would be happy with if i was the shop owner.

[madrat]

Well done Calm!
(You are more forgiving than me... :;)

Glad it worked out for you to a point that you were happy with.:U

[Groggy]

You could have said no but didn't :2tsup:.

[autogenous]

How often do tradies suffer financially? Not very often I would say.There is very good reason for a lack of subcontractor trades these days.

That is because in the past more so in the last decade that many trades were financially screwed. Many have left.

Now theres advertising on the television paid for by government tax dollars to attempt to rectify the issue. There is good reason why there is such a large shortage of housing for people to live in. Australia doesn't have the trades to build them.

Some building trades have over a 50% drop out apprentice rate. (50% apprentices quitting prior to completion). Its not because its easy work. People forget that in their false enviable comments created mostly by the media.

The issue is the media always publish the good period which ran in the past 1 year for every 6 years of poor stagflation in the construction industry.

With ten years of low interest rates and an overheated economy built on equity stacking many more trades will leave for better jobs when they have only work for 3 days a week and the rates they are paid falls 30%+.

It is a supply and demand industry. 6 years of oversupply to 1 year of demand in the past. Trades were driven into the ground. The old boys would say, what else do I do. The new younger generation saw the lack of loyalty and don't hesitate to shift jobs when they can. There is more secure better jobs about. Thats what happened in the past, this is where it ended up. You too can have the anxiety of where your next job is next week if you like. A bit like the old Egyptian economy.

[Frank&Earnest]

Ok, let's have fun with another scenario.

Around 20 years ago I rearranged two rooms in the house. I had Axminster carpet laid throughout the house only a few years before so when I moved the kitchen and put parquetry in one room I discarded the kitchen vynil and replaced it with the carpet from the other room.

Picked a maintenance firm from the yellow pages and asked whether they would send somebody out to relay the carpet. My wife hardly spoke any English, so I had to handle all these things over the phone in my lunch time. The guy on the other side of the phone says "you would be better off getting somebody from the ads in the local paper (going rate at the time would have ben less than $100 for the whole job), we charge the princely sum of $50 per hour". We agreed that a couple of hours would be about right for the job, taking into account a bit of cutting and pasting to fit the carpet to the smaller room, so I told them to go ahead.

The guy came on a saturday, so I was home to see what happened.
He had with him an "apprentice" i.e. a young kid who just helped him detach and carry the carpet to the other room and then sweeped the bare cement. He did not touch anything afterward and just stood in a corner watching. Fine with me because I could see that the job was done properly by the tradesman.

The guy then proceeded extremely slowly with the job, taking a smoko every half hour, making numerous phone calls and taking over an hour for lunch. It was obvious he was wasting time hoping to be called for some other job that was not coming. I realise that he is trying to milk the job as much as possible but I do not complain because I assume he will charge working (albeit not effectively) time, not expended time. At this point he must have assumed that I was the sweetest SUCKER he had ever met.

The bill comes in: $50 an hour for TWO people for SIX hours plus materials = $600 plus materials.

What would you have done?

[autogenous]

going rate at the time would have ben less than $100 for the whole jobSo someone over the phone told you a job would take 2 hours? Very typical stab in the dark guesstimate.
The job is always "straight" forward isn't it or is it.

The tradesman made phone calls though out the day 20 years ago on a mobile phone? Yeah theyre the ones returning calls to all the whinging clients.

Do you own a company? So you buy shares in companies so they make profit? After all businesses are in the business of making money?

People complain with bias without contemplating the costs of running business mistaking it for wages. What do those mobile phone calls cost alone. Imagine you being employed for a day.

What sort of hourly rate would you want?

Maybe we should go on about my accountants bill @ $250 per hour or my lawyers fees @$450 p/h. Get over it!:)

[TomH]

This is proving to be quite an interesting thread.

And guess what - people don't like being let down. Whether it's the client changing his/her mind halfway through a job, or the tradie failing to call to tell them they are running late - no-one likes being stuffed around.

This is not just limited to the tradie/client interaction. Do people always answer every email you send at work? Probably not. Do they always deliver every project on-time on-budget. No. Do you win every job you pitch? No (funny that, if everyone gets 3 quotes it means on average you miss out on 2 out of every 3 jobs you quote on). Do you find some people hard to work with. Yes. Does your team (if you have one) always do the things you want them to, even though they know you are determining pay rises at the end of the year. No. And why not - you are paying them!!

I'm certain there are many disgruntled people out there who have dealt with tradies (or anyone else for that matter). I am also certain there are probably just as many tradies who are frustrated with clients. This will always be the case when we don't have highly detailed specifications with performance criteria. And even if we did we would still have these discussions.

I am also certain we are not going to solve it on this forum.

So maybe instead we should be asking people to refer a good tradie so we can give them our business. Then the ones with limited communication skills will go the way of many other small businesses.

Cheers,

Tom

[autogenous]

Tradies never get sick. They never hurt their backs, chop off toes. Their cars never break down. None of which they are paid for.

In fact some are ringing back clients at 8:00pm at night. Imagine waking at 5:00am then still being on the phone at 8 after doing a marathon of pushing 200 kilo wheelbarrows of cement through sand for 9 hours.

Honestly, if many "trades" worked out their hours with liability/expenses after receiving their "net" pay/earnings for the year from their accountant they would throw their tools in the sea and work at Bunnings, especially in a recession environment.

Actually I think many are, including seeking other wage jobs

[nev25]

Another scenario But Ive started it on its own thread as this one is getting off the track of the original
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?p=719706#post719706

[Jasey]

Tradies never get sick. They never hurt their backs, chop off toes. Their cars never break down. None of which they are paid for.

In fact some are ringing back clients at 8:00pm at night. Imagine waking at 5:00am then still being on the phone at 8 after doing a marathon of pushing 200 kilo wheelbarrows of cement through sand for 9 hours.

Honestly, if many "trades" worked out their hours with liability/expenses after receiving their "net" pay/earnings for the year from their accountant they would throw their tools in the sea and work at Bunnings, especially in a recession environment.

Actually I think many are, including seeking other wage jobs

Not exactly sure of your point here. Sensible clients are aware of these issues. Sensible clients appreciate them. Sensible clients also work and have frustrations in their jobs, what is new? Its not just you mate. What the SENSIBLE people are complaining about is the 70% of tradesman that you contact cold either just don't turn up, aren't interested or never call back.

No one begrudges someone making a quid. I've got a few tradies who I happily pay because they turn up and treat you with respect.

[autogenous]

Not exactly sure of your point here. Sensible clients are aware of these issues. Sensible clients appreciate them. Sensible clients also work and have frustrations in their jobs, what is new? Its not just you mate. We are not talking about them. We're discussing the thread title. If people complain they get an answer.


What the SENSIBLE people are complaining about is the 70% of tradesman that you contact cold either just don't turn up, aren't interested or never call back.Its in defense of the accusations. If the threads all read some people would have noticed the reason some trades don't ring back is:
A. They get 25 phone calls a day and returning calls is a costly exercise.
B. Trades do have issues to deal with like illness, too much work etc.


Not exactly sure of your point here. Sensible clients are aware of these issues.The sensible people have to understand why their calls aren't returned and trades don't turn up.

Some of us like to get some work done during the day. Spending $30 that night returning the mobile calls isn't anyones idea of fun.

If its important enough they'll ring back.

The tradie has more than likely picked out the one sensible client and rang them back.

[Vernonv]

... reason some trades don't ring back is:
A. They get 25 phone calls a day and returning calls is a costly exercise.
B. Trades do have issues to deal with like illness, too much work etc.

They just sound like excuses to me. The bottom line is that tradies are running a business. When times are good, they can get away with giving bad service. It's when times are bad, that bad service comes back to bite them on the bum.

If you don't like the business you are in - change jobs, careers, businesses. Otherwise be prepared to reap what you sow.

[autogenous]

They just sound like excuses to me. The bottom line is that tradies are running a business. When times are good, they can get away with giving bad service. It's when times are bad, that bad service comes back to bite them on the bum.I'm sure many have considered that.
Reality is. In many cases it means nothing.
What do you think that is considered in many cases when the work drops?
What over price? *pfft*
In the real world the above quote goes out the window. Welcome to the real world.


If you don't like the business you are in - change jobs, careers, businesses. Otherwise be prepared to reap what you sow.Too right. Its happening at such a rate millions of tax dollars are being spent on advertising stemming the bleeding to attain new apprentices.
Thats where its ended up.

Don't take my word for it. Take a look. The current environment speaks for its self.

[Vernonv]

I'm sure many have considered that.
Reality is. In many cases it means nothing.
What do you think that is considered in many cases when the work drops?
What over price? *pfft*
In the real world the above quote goes out the window. Welcome to the real world.

Sure there is an element of truth in that, but I think you will find that people frequent businesses / tradies that they trust and that have given them good service in the past. Businesses/tradies that have a good reputation (for customer service) are much more likely to retain customers in the long term regardless of the economic situation.



Too right. Its happening at such a rate millions of tax dollars are being spent on advertising stemming the bleeding to attain new apprentices.
Thats where its ended up.

If demand for your services is so high then you should be able to charge more and provide people with the level of service they expect, while still making a decent profit. You should also then be able to be more selective of the customers you choose to deal with. Maybe tradies should be going for quality, not quantity?